everyones' thoughts on steamed vs unsteamed bonemeal. tlo delegates that you do not use steamed in a mix, but recommends using it in spikes and layers. everything you read on this tells you not to use unsteamed bone meal. if you mix steamed with your regular mix that will set for 3 months or better, this is what i do, wouldn't that allow the steamed to break down quite a bit, thus not causing quite so much havoc with your microbe community?
Living Organics *Ofiicial Thread*
- Thread starter Piff83
- Start date
FR33MASON
Active Member
Any unsterilised animal product carries a risk of infectious diseases and beef based bone meal has the ever so slight potential for Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy and that would be a horrible way to die so why risk it. If you plan on handling unpasteurised animal products, make sure you use a respirator with at least a NIOSH P100 filter, goggles, gloves, a tyvek suit would be optimal. OR just use a steamed product with a dust mask and maybe safety glasses. No matter what, always wash up right after playing in the dirt.
Cann
Well-Known Member
Yeah it has me puzzled as well...and there is no lid involved currently - I have the soil spread out on a tarp to about 4'' thick, and I turn it daily. No ammonia smell when turning but as soon as I bring my face within an inch or so I get hit with it decently strong. maybe I just have a super sensitive nose to ammonia? the soil is borderline dry today...not good. I might just wet it down with a molasses dilution and see what happens...gah this is frustrating. all my other mixes are doing decently though so that is hopeful.
on another note - just got back from running a bunch of errands with a friend and we happened to be in orange county for a minute. swung by OC farm supply and picked up 100lbs of pumice for $16.78
thats what I'm talking about baby. At the local garden center it is $3.99 for 4 quarts....lolalso stopped by the health food store and grabbed some organic dandelion greens (i feel sketched out collecting them locally due to pesticides/pollution/general condition of the earth in so-cal), aloe juice, and a case of coconut water. how often do you use aloe/coconut? have you been experimenting with sprouted seed teas? I hit my ladies with an alfalfa sprout enzyme foliar yesterday and they are very happy to say the least.
also, for aloe, does the 20 minutes of peak bioactivity refer to the time after you remove the leaf from the mother plant, or the time after you filet a leaf? because I chopped a few huge leaves I found a few days ago and they are just sitting currently...but I would think the secondary metabolites would stay alive inside the leaf for a while...can't aloe leaves pop roots just like most other succulents/cacti? just want to make sure I can utilize this stuff to the fullest.
thanks for the help
funny to see that MM is giving you shit on that other thread lol I thought what you were saying was fairly accurate....but then again I trust his advice over almost all others so I am torn....POH Organics
Member
I really must ask you to elaborate on these sproutling teas. They sound fucking awesome...Yeah it has me puzzled as well...and there is no lid involved currently - I have the soil spread out on a tarp to about 4'' thick, and I turn it daily. No ammonia smell when turning but as soon as I bring my face within an inch or so I get hit with it decently strong. maybe I just have a super sensitive nose to ammonia? the soil is borderline dry today...not good. I might just wet it down with a molasses dilution and see what happens...gah this is frustrating. all my other mixes are doing decently though so that is hopeful.
on another note - just got back from running a bunch of errands with a friend and we happened to be in orange county for a minute. swung by OC farm supply and picked up 100lbs of pumice for $16.78
also stopped by the health food store and grabbed some organic dandelion greens (i feel sketched out collecting them locally due to pesticides/pollution/general condition of the earth in so-cal), aloe juice, and a case of coconut water. how often do you use aloe/coconut? have you been experimenting with sprouted seed teas? I hit my ladies with an alfalfa sprout enzyme foliar yesterday and they are very happy to say the least.
also, for aloe, does the 20 minutes of peak bioactivity refer to the time after you remove the leaf from the mother plant, or the time after you filet a leaf? because I chopped a few huge leaves I found a few days ago and they are just sitting currently...but I would think the secondary metabolites would stay alive inside the leaf for a while...can't aloe leaves pop roots just like most other succulents/cacti? just want to make sure I can utilize this stuff to the fullest.
thanks for the help
When I root with aloe, I like to let my cuttings set for about 30 minutes to hour, also intrigued by peak time.
I'm learning! Woohoo! Many other forums have become stagnant with dull information, excited to see new ideas (To me at least!)
MM is the man, but he's also a business-man. I still take everything I've read of his to heart
Since I got the idea of sprouting teas from Clackamas, I'll just quote him:
Try this:
1/4 cup Barley seeds (not pearled barley from Safeway)
Sprout like you would any seed like Alfalfa, Mung beans, etc.
Once they're sprouted (about 2 days) add to 1 gallon of water and let that sit for 3 or 4 days and it will turn cloudy. Strain and mix 2 cups of this 'tea' to 14 cups of water = 1 gallon.
Spray your plants from top to bottom and hit the soil.
Let me know what you think. This works equally well using alfalfa, wheat, oat, etc. seeds.
"Enzymes"
CC
A sprouting jar from your local health food store works well.
Oriah
Well-Known Member
Hey guys, so i just got the book, and i do have a question to ask some pros here... Is it true that if your waters PPM is super low that PH becomes a non issue? ive always thought otherwise, but it kind of makes sense. Plus it saying that the PH down ( i use organic vinegar ) kills my microbs... whats the dig friends?
Cann
Well-Known Member
okay here goes. I am by no means one of the "pros", in fact I would consider you much more of a pro than me, but I think I have a decent grasp on what you are asking.
I am not sure how ppm influences soil pH necessarily (i wouldn't think it was an issue), but from everything I have read I have concluded that pH is a non-issue in organic soil. If you don't already own a copy of Teaming with Microbes, pick one up ASAP. Jeff Lowenfels and Wayne Lewis are much better at explaining this than me...but basically if your soil has a high enough humus content and a decent supply of nutrients (cations to be adsorbed by the humic particles) your plant will be able to "eat" whatever it wants regardless of pH. Your plant will secrete certain exudates (generally carbon i believe) in order to attract specific bacteria/fungi (depending on what it needs) and in turn the bacteria/fungi will chelate nutrients from the surrounding humic particles (assuming your humus content is high) into immediately available form for your ladies. At least this is my general grasp of what is happening...someone correct me if I am wrong...
From my understanding, pH is a non-issue because the bacteria/fungi are doing the work and basically delivering the chelated nutrients that the plant asks for. If your soil doesn't have the proper microorganisms, you become the one responsible for providing exactly what the plant needs, but as long as the microbes are in place you should be fine. Without the microbes the plant can only absorb the "right" nutrients (NPK blah blah blah) within a certain range of pH, so proper pH levels become imperative. Ritually checking pH and ppm in organic living soil seems to be another poor translation from hydro chem growing - akin to the "flushing" organic soil myth. pH, ppm, and flushing are very very important if you are a chem hydro grower. If you are a living organic soil grower, the important things (IMO) are humus, aeration, microbes, a diversity of minerals and nutrients, enzymes, and clean pure water. Notice the emphasis on humus...ask rrog what he puts in his worm bins lol and you will see that people treat their humus like it is full of diamonds - there is a reason for this. Great EWC will contain almost all of the aforementioned components (aeration being the one exception) which is why many growers use straight EWC for cuttings, etc.
In the past I was adjusting pH for a while under the impression it was significant, and ever since stopping I have had no issues...figured out that my issue was a general lack of feeding/humic content in the soil. my pH and ppm meter are now collecting dust in the closet...
I hope this makes some sense...and there is probably some misinformation here due to my poor reading comprehension/knowledge retention of teaming with microbes lol
I am not sure how ppm influences soil pH necessarily (i wouldn't think it was an issue), but from everything I have read I have concluded that pH is a non-issue in organic soil. If you don't already own a copy of Teaming with Microbes, pick one up ASAP. Jeff Lowenfels and Wayne Lewis are much better at explaining this than me...but basically if your soil has a high enough humus content and a decent supply of nutrients (cations to be adsorbed by the humic particles) your plant will be able to "eat" whatever it wants regardless of pH. Your plant will secrete certain exudates (generally carbon i believe) in order to attract specific bacteria/fungi (depending on what it needs) and in turn the bacteria/fungi will chelate nutrients from the surrounding humic particles (assuming your humus content is high) into immediately available form for your ladies. At least this is my general grasp of what is happening...someone correct me if I am wrong...
From my understanding, pH is a non-issue because the bacteria/fungi are doing the work and basically delivering the chelated nutrients that the plant asks for. If your soil doesn't have the proper microorganisms, you become the one responsible for providing exactly what the plant needs, but as long as the microbes are in place you should be fine. Without the microbes the plant can only absorb the "right" nutrients (NPK blah blah blah) within a certain range of pH, so proper pH levels become imperative. Ritually checking pH and ppm in organic living soil seems to be another poor translation from hydro chem growing - akin to the "flushing" organic soil myth. pH, ppm, and flushing are very very important if you are a chem hydro grower. If you are a living organic soil grower, the important things (IMO) are humus, aeration, microbes, a diversity of minerals and nutrients, enzymes, and clean pure water. Notice the emphasis on humus...ask rrog what he puts in his worm bins lol and you will see that people treat their humus like it is full of diamonds - there is a reason for this. Great EWC will contain almost all of the aforementioned components (aeration being the one exception) which is why many growers use straight EWC for cuttings, etc.
In the past I was adjusting pH for a while under the impression it was significant, and ever since stopping I have had no issues...figured out that my issue was a general lack of feeding/humic content in the soil. my pH and ppm meter are now collecting dust in the closet...
I hope this makes some sense...and there is probably some misinformation here due to my poor reading comprehension/knowledge retention of teaming with microbes lol
SpliffAndMyLady
Well-Known Member
I have noticed that less ppm=less problems and things run pretty smoothly when I just give her enough to get by every other week on, and feeding the mircroherd with molasses every other 3 weeks, makes for some real clean sticky stanky smoke, just not much yield IMO, but organic vinegar doesn't kill your microbes; your fine.
SpliffAndMyLady
Well-Known Member
Everyone does it different, I've noticed that my plants don't mind a unbalanced watering every now and then but I usually always pH my water with arm & hammer baking soda or bragg apple cider organic vinegar to 6.5-7.0 when growing in organic soil.
Rrog
Well-Known Member
When doing the seed sprout teas, make sure you throw away the initial soak. The seed shell contains microbicides. You don't want that. After tossing the initial soak, add new water and continue to let them sprout. That's the water you want to use.
You don't have to pH water, unless it's fun, etc.
Cann- Not sure what's going on, other than you have some remaining Ammonia smell from an initial walk through anaerobia. Maybe it's remaining smell. Certainly not anaerobic now. As dry as it is, there's no anaerobic activity, so no continued Ammonia generation. I figure it's gotta be leftover smell. I'd re-moisten and continue despite the smell.
You don't have to pH water, unless it's fun, etc.
Cann- Not sure what's going on, other than you have some remaining Ammonia smell from an initial walk through anaerobia. Maybe it's remaining smell. Certainly not anaerobic now. As dry as it is, there's no anaerobic activity, so no continued Ammonia generation. I figure it's gotta be leftover smell. I'd re-moisten and continue despite the smell.
thank you for the answer and i agree, i had already been looking at the fish bone meal but was concerned with the smell factor, attraction of unwanted pests, any input there?
you're telling me pretty much everything i've read also, thank you very much for your answer, in total agreement.
POH Organics
Member
Pests are the very reason I don't use blood and bone meal, instead opting for fish bone. If you butchered a cow, then took all the slop and let it in dry in a barrel..you'd have blood and bone meal
gladstoned
Well-Known Member
I mixed my first batch of True Living Organic soil. I believe I have everything the way the book said EXCEPT the bone meal.
I accidentely ordered another Whitney Farms blood meal. I had a box of Down To Earth Fish Bone meal so I used it instead.
Holy Fuck did that shit stink just awful!!! We mixed it in my basement. Anyway the smell left as soon as the soil was mixed.
Some of that shit was almost as bad. Like the feather meal, thats nothing you want to take a big hit of either.
Isn't switching out fish bone meal for bone meal a big part of veganics? Either way, I did it, and not on purpose.
I understand people hating on the Rev's system, but this is the best way for ME to try out organics. I'm after the best organic
meds. I don't really give a shit about costs, and work involved. I have no desire to shovel bat shit out of a cave or
weigh up cow shit on my scales. If my advanced nutrients and hydro blow this away, then it will be something that I
tried briefly. If it can hang, then I will be studying a lot of what you guys are talking about.
I accidentely ordered another Whitney Farms blood meal. I had a box of Down To Earth Fish Bone meal so I used it instead.
Holy Fuck did that shit stink just awful!!! We mixed it in my basement. Anyway the smell left as soon as the soil was mixed.
Some of that shit was almost as bad. Like the feather meal, thats nothing you want to take a big hit of either.
Isn't switching out fish bone meal for bone meal a big part of veganics? Either way, I did it, and not on purpose.
I understand people hating on the Rev's system, but this is the best way for ME to try out organics. I'm after the best organic
meds. I don't really give a shit about costs, and work involved. I have no desire to shovel bat shit out of a cave or
weigh up cow shit on my scales. If my advanced nutrients and hydro blow this away, then it will be something that I
tried briefly. If it can hang, then I will be studying a lot of what you guys are talking about.
Rrog
Well-Known Member
Glad, then you're setting yourself up to go back to hydro. You've been doing hydro for years; what are the chances this first soil grow will have more yield than your experienced hydro grows.
The problem with all of this is that there isn't a serious horticulturist that would ever do what the Rev recommends. And let's face it, when you have a magazine, you need advertisers, so if you write a book, you had better include all your best advertisers.
Biologically, horticulturally, scientifically, this fails. Largely stoner science which is SOOOOO easy to propagate because stoners love an idol. Could be Ed, could be Subcool, could be the Rev. It's very easy to sell stoners the farm. Sad, because paradoxically, stoners are generally broke and spending money they don't have. It's really stoner exploitation.
The problem with all of this is that there isn't a serious horticulturist that would ever do what the Rev recommends. And let's face it, when you have a magazine, you need advertisers, so if you write a book, you had better include all your best advertisers.
Biologically, horticulturally, scientifically, this fails. Largely stoner science which is SOOOOO easy to propagate because stoners love an idol. Could be Ed, could be Subcool, could be the Rev. It's very easy to sell stoners the farm. Sad, because paradoxically, stoners are generally broke and spending money they don't have. It's really stoner exploitation.
POH Organics
Member
I was blown away when I read the Rev's theory on 'spiking'. How could creating multiple hot spots be beneficial? lol
Rrog
Well-Known Member
POH, isn't stoner science just FILLED with this sort of nonsense? Start your seeds by sanding and bleaching them, and make sure you start during a new moon. Make sure you let the soil dry before watering, as the soil does better with wet / dry cycles. After I harvest my plant from my 1000W HPS, for shits sake don't let any light hit the trichs while you cure, since we all know light degrades THC... It just goes on and on and people who believe this crap defend it with their life. Whatever; you can lead a horse to water...
POH Organics
Member
There's a reason good herb is a rare commodity
. I don't understand how rev and those guys still have gardens, I figured mother ganja would've surely killed their karma for spreading all these lies. I've never understood it, everyones too afraid that they'll get out grown or something, I'd rather bring everyone into the light so that together we can learn even more.I still wanna get in a fight with the hydro store employees everytime I go there, lol. Robbing sick people fucking blind