Lightning help for non-weed setup

lukio

lukio

Well-Known Member
how about @OneHitDone you set up an led weed grow with the panel Stephen sent you for free... and i'll grow some lettuce? when you hit the Onehit led problems, i or someone else tries to put it right? and when i inevitably grow deficient lettuce you can laugh

and you stop talking newbs out of led
 
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eLod

Member
hey guys, sorry got sidetracked by some side projects (helping gf setting up terrarium for crested gekkos, etc.), but i did some look-around in terms of strips. i have a lot to catch up on, but this thread is getting out of hand with insults please stop that.

@end_of_the_tunnel i am very thankful for those links (samsung's engine & component calculators). i have some questions: should i use typ for flux & voltage in "general data" section, what is flux factor, or what is important for these settings? if i select a strip and change the current in "module performance" section should i leave Tc as is, how do i know what will be the temp? also if i change the current to higher then the flux just gets higher values, even higher than the max of the strip as per datasheet. so i guess i would need a lot of more knowledge to fully understand/use this calculator, but it already is a great help. my question is what settings/values should i be careful about and what should i ignore as not my level yet. also do you know if there is anything like this for bridgelux?

@OneHitDone thanks, interesting thread, needed some time to get through it, i have to admit, most of it i haven't comprehend fully yet, but i understand on the high level you suggest that led (strips or other) are not the best type of lamps to grow leafy greens. for my use case the most important thing is least intrusion in everyday life (as this will be in our living room openly, so minimum additional heat, light and noise is the goal). i have thought about fluorescent as well, but i thought led is also a good option. i understand if you say there are better performers, but performance/yield/roi is not my main concern, this is a fun sideproject after all. i also understand you are not saying that leds can't grow greens.

--

so as said i didn't have much time, but at least could look at some strips a bit more so i can better understand the options on the market. (with my limited knowledge and understanding) i have checked (meaning look at datasheets, prices, etc) f series g3, g series, h influx, holticulture l2, eb g3 and eb g2. obviously i still don't understand like how the different chips (like lm561c, lm301b, lm301h + lh351h, 2835) really compare, but i think i shouldn't overcomplicate or overshoot too much, so i've decided my real alternatives are the f series g3, the eb g3 and eb g2. so i am planning on doing some build calculations for them so i can compare money vs what i get at the end and decide to build one. any hints or help with that greatly appreciated, i feel like my current level is where i need to understand better how running the strips on different currents affect them as to calculate with it (see my questions above to @end_of_the_tunnel )
 
Barristan Whitebeard

Barristan Whitebeard

Well-Known Member
eLod said:
hey guys, sorry got sidetracked by some side projects (helping gf setting up terrarium for crested gekkos, etc.), but i did some look-around in terms of strips. i have a lot to catch up on, but this thread is getting out of hand with insults please stop that.

@end_of_the_tunnel i am very thankful for those links (samsung's engine & component calculators). i have some questions: should i use typ for flux & voltage in "general data" section, what is flux factor, or what is important for these settings? if i select a strip and change the current in "module performance" section should i leave Tc as is, how do i know what will be the temp? also if i change the current to higher then the flux just gets higher values, even higher than the max of the strip as per datasheet. so i guess i would need a lot of more knowledge to fully understand/use this calculator, but it already is a great help. my question is what settings/values should i be careful about and what should i ignore as not my level yet. also do you know if there is anything like this for bridgelux?

@OneHitDone thanks, interesting thread, needed some time to get through it, i have to admit, most of it i haven't comprehend fully yet, but i understand on the high level you suggest that led (strips or other) are not the best type of lamps to grow leafy greens. for my use case the most important thing is least intrusion in everyday life (as this will be in our living room openly, so minimum additional heat, light and noise is the goal). i have thought about fluorescent as well, but i thought led is also a good option. i understand if you say there are better performers, but performance/yield/roi is not my main concern, this is a fun sideproject after all. i also understand you are not saying that leds can't grow greens.

--

so as said i didn't have much time, but at least could look at some strips a bit more so i can better understand the options on the market. (with my limited knowledge and understanding) i have checked (meaning look at datasheets, prices, etc) f series g3, g series, h influx, holticulture l2, eb g3 and eb g2. obviously i still don't understand like how the different chips (like lm561c, lm301b, lm301h + lh351h, 2835) really compare, but i think i shouldn't overcomplicate or overshoot too much, so i've decided my real alternatives are the f series g3, the eb g3 and eb g2. so i am planning on doing some build calculations for them so i can compare money vs what i get at the end and decide to build one. any hints or help with that greatly appreciated, i feel like my current level is where i need to understand better how running the strips on different currents affect them as to calculate with it (see my questions above to @end_of_the_tunnel )
Click to expand...
Hello, what did you mean by g series? Were you referring to Samsung Q-series?

The number 2835 refers to the size of the diode (2.8 mm x 3.5 mm) not necessarily a specific make.
 
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end_of_the_tunnel

Well-Known Member
eLod said:
hey guys, sorry got sidetracked by some side projects (helping gf setting up terrarium for crested gekkos, etc.), but i did some look-around in terms of strips. i have a lot to catch up on, but this thread is getting out of hand with insults please stop that.

@end_of_the_tunnel i am very thankful for those links (samsung's engine & component calculators). i have some questions: should i use typ for flux & voltage in "general data" section, what is flux factor, or what is important for these settings? if i select a strip and change the current in "module performance" section should i leave Tc as is, how do i know what will be the temp? also if i change the current to higher then the flux just gets higher values, even higher than the max of the strip as per datasheet. so i guess i would need a lot of more knowledge to fully understand/use this calculator, but it already is a great help. my question is what settings/values should i be careful about and what should i ignore as not my level yet. also do you know if there is anything like this for bridgelux?

@OneHitDone thanks, interesting thread, needed some time to get through it, i have to admit, most of it i haven't comprehend fully yet, but i understand on the high level you suggest that led (strips or other) are not the best type of lamps to grow leafy greens. for my use case the most important thing is least intrusion in everyday life (as this will be in our living room openly, so minimum additional heat, light and noise is the goal). i have thought about fluorescent as well, but i thought led is also a good option. i understand if you say there are better performers, but performance/yield/roi is not my main concern, this is a fun sideproject after all. i also understand you are not saying that leds can't grow greens.

--

so as said i didn't have much time, but at least could look at some strips a bit more so i can better understand the options on the market. (with my limited knowledge and understanding) i have checked (meaning look at datasheets, prices, etc) f series g3, g series, h influx, holticulture l2, eb g3 and eb g2. obviously i still don't understand like how the different chips (like lm561c, lm301b, lm301h + lh351h, 2835) really compare, but i think i shouldn't overcomplicate or overshoot too much, so i've decided my real alternatives are the f series g3, the eb g3 and eb g2. so i am planning on doing some build calculations for them so i can compare money vs what i get at the end and decide to build one. any hints or help with that greatly appreciated, i feel like my current level is where i need to understand better how running the strips on different currents affect them as to calculate with it (see my questions above to @end_of_the_tunnel )
Click to expand...
Hello eLod.

Just use "typ", for the flux and voltage. I always leave "Flux Factor" at the default 100%. For general calculations I would advise to leave "Tc" at the value that samsung provides as the default for a particular product. You are wise to be mindful of datasheet max values for current. Simply employ more strips to ensure you run them below max value. Efficiency and longevity will be improved.

I have not seen a Bridgelux strip calculator. If you contact Bridgelux explaining your lighting requirements they might be able to offer you assistance. You would need to specify your requirements, and that is going to entail you researching your particular crops recommended levels of light.

My advice would to be start small, with a simple eb strip build using 280mm/340mm or 560 mm strips. (1120mm strips make for long lights, that are good if you have the space.) 3000 - 3500 Kelvin. 80 - 90 CRI. Choosing 90CRI will give you a good basis for starting your journey. The levels of red and far red are good for enhancing flavour (it is heavily relied upon in commercial lighting for herbs and salad production) and encouraging rapid onset of fruiting/flowering.

If you look at this cree diode example, you can see the higher levels of red and far red for the 90CRI. You could check the Bridgelux data to see if there is a corresponding trend. Not all manufacturers share the same dies and phosphor blends for comparable Kelvin/CRI, and this can be evidenced in the different peaks for red and area under the curves in the graphs for 80 and 90CRI.
.eLod.jpg

For a general overview on spectrum and how it affects plants, have a look at this video.

The emphasis here on the forum is to focus on red/far red as it shows clear enhancement on rapid flowering, and finished size of bud. Some large scale commercial manufacturers are more advanced and seek to further enhance lighting for specific conditions.
 
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eLod

Member
@end_of_the_tunnel thanks for the info again, going to check the video shortly, however i already saw bruce's many videos and also aware of the red "craze". i have always wondered what kelvin and cri i should go for (early replies suggested 3000k with 90 cri), for example googling cri mostly yields answers like "the higher the cri the more similar it's to natural light (eg sun?). at the very beginning my friend also suggested that i should use full spectrum cobs (he has the chinese ones), that is when i started my "research" that eventually culminated in finding this forum. after reading many things and checking out, my current understanding is K and CRI affects how that graphs look (eg the ratios of different wavelengths thus the shape of the overall graph).

as for the calculator thanks for the tips, however i might have been ambiguous, what i wanted to ask is: if i raise the current (it start with the strips' typ value) but it's still under the strips' max the display flux value (eg lumen) is above the max flux value in the datasheet, eg if choose on of the f series that has 1.8A max current as per datasheet the calculator shows me ~6700 lumen for flux which is above the max flux (~4800) as per the datasheet. i understand driving them harder will create more heat so at one point i need to better cool them, but i would still expect the flux not to go as high as per the calculator shows (so eg driving them on higher current lowers lm/W way more than it shows eg more efficient to drive them lower, not "just" 10% - eg 155 vs 170 as per picture).

as for the strips size i plan to do make calculations with multiple setups (eg just for a single series using shorter and longer strips) to see what makes more sense. my area is 6ft * 1.3ft, so its perfectly good for longer strips in one direction and the smallest ones even in the other, so that's not a limiting factor. for my uneducated comparison (comparing raw values from datasheets) my current best roi (as in W or lumen per price) would be the eb g2, that said it is highly dependent on prices and they do keep changing. hence i've chosen the 3 series (samsung f, eb g2, eb g3) to calculate some builds with them (again multiple per series with different size strips and etc) so i can better understand what i can be getting. i could just choose one build that was suggested here, but i wouldn't understand what's going on or what are the pros and cons of that light, so i want to learn even if it takes more time.

edit: forgot to add the image
 

Attachments

Barristan Whitebeard

Barristan Whitebeard

Well-Known Member
eLod said:
@Barristan Whitebeard yes i was referring to q series, typo. oh i didn't know (that it's just a size code), thanks for clearing it up, are the chips the same on eb g2 vs g3?
Click to expand...
As far as I know both of those generations of linears use Bridgelux .2 watt 2835 diodes. I believe the Gen 3 strips just use an updated, more efficient version of the diodes used on the Gen 2 strips.
 
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end_of_the_tunnel

Well-Known Member
eLod said:
@end_of_the_tunnel thanks for the info again, going to check the video shortly, however i already saw bruce's many videos and also aware of the red "craze". i have always wondered what kelvin and cri i should go for (early replies suggested 3000k with 90 cri), for example googling cri mostly yields answers like "the higher the cri the more similar it's to natural light (eg sun?). at the very beginning my friend also suggested that i should use full spectrum cobs (he has the chinese ones), that is when i started my "research" that eventually culminated in finding this forum. after reading many things and checking out, my current understanding is K and CRI affects how that graphs look (eg the ratios of different wavelengths thus the shape of the overall graph).

as for the calculator thanks for the tips, however i might have been ambiguous, what i wanted to ask is: if i raise the current (it start with the strips' typ value) but it's still under the strips' max the display flux value (eg lumen) is above the max flux value in the datasheet, eg if choose on of the f series that has 1.8A max current as per datasheet the calculator shows me ~6700 lumen for flux which is above the max flux (~4800) as per the datasheet. i understand driving them harder will create more heat so at one point i need to better cool them, but i would still expect the flux not to go as high as per the calculator shows (so eg driving them on higher current lowers lm/W way more than it shows eg more efficient to drive them lower, not "just" 10% - eg 155 vs 170 as per picture).

as for the strips size i plan to do make calculations with multiple setups (eg just for a single series using shorter and longer strips) to see what makes more sense. my area is 6ft * 1.3ft, so its perfectly good for longer strips in one direction and the smallest ones even in the other, so that's not a limiting factor. for my uneducated comparison (comparing raw values from datasheets) my current best roi (as in W or lumen per price) would be the eb g2, that said it is highly dependent on prices and they do keep changing. hence i've chosen the 3 series (samsung f, eb g2, eb g3) to calculate some builds with them (again multiple per series with different size strips and etc) so i can better understand what i can be getting. i could just choose one build that was suggested here, but i wouldn't understand what's going on or what are the pros and cons of that light, so i want to learn even if it takes more time.

edit: forgot to add the image
Click to expand...
Hello.

The luminous flux values given in the datasheet are based on a range of "diode binnings" that might be utilised or set aside by the manufacturer for the strips.
The calculator uses the same data given in the datasheet.
Note the remark on the datasheet, to the right, of the min/typ/max values. Forward current 1120mA @ 65°C.
You could view those flux values supplied in the datasheet, as a performance indicator of best/worst and typical diodes that the manufacturer might supply mounted on the strips.
The likelihood is that samsung has allocated sufficient of the better diodes for use in their own strip products.
Hence the recommendation to select "Typ.", from the menu for "Flux" and "Vf".

Have a look at this beautifully documented EB 3 slim strip example. https://www.rollitup.org/t/modular-overkill-led-striplight-build.999522/
 
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eLod

Member
@end_of_the_tunnel thanks again for the very explicit and detailed information you are really bringing some sanity (for the troubled research loops) and i appreciate it a lot. i have checked the thread you've linked to, again very useful, especially that thermal thread it has a link to, wonderful. also checked ledgardener's 4 part videos on the driver comparison, helped better understanding all the different moving parts.

i have made some calculations on paper for the 3 different families i've mentioned before and also started checking out driver options (and some little research into alu heatsinks), starting to realise the driver (and heatsinks if needed) are not negligible parts of the total price. so i won't bother you with all the different things i've calculated, but let's just go with 1 concrete example so i can articulate my current questions.

so for example i would buy 12 pieces of the eb gen 2, 112 cm long (~ 4ft ones). i guess i would shoot for something like 500-550mA, which would use around 38.4V (trying to read it from the graph in datasheet) giving ~20W (all per strip), 12 of those for my 240W (for ~8 sq ft). is that 500-550mA too low, or should i go as low as i can bc it yields better lm/w? for that w some hlg-240h would be ok, but i guess getting a bigger one that i can dim down to this level is better for future (like if i will have a bigger space or anything)? driver prices shoot up, but given these strips can do even 1-1.2A there is much space... obviously at some point i would need heatsinks, but where is that (is 55 C ok? is 65?)? at the thermal thread the 2ft variant at 1200mA was 65 C (without heatsink).
 
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eLod

Member
@cobshopgrow thanks for the answer. i have checked those graphs, but i guess i am lacking this high level view that connects these things. like i know if i run the strips on lower current i get more efficiency (in terms of lm/w), and i guess now i understand that also means lower temperature which is also more efficiency (in terms of relative flux as per datasheet) or is that already factored in and that is where it comes from in the first place? so if i raise the current though the total W will be higher, but the lm/w will be lower, is that only because of the temperature or other characteristics of the diodes for example? on top of that the higher the temp the shorter the strips lifetime, can you elaborate on that? i mean i tried to google and understand how that 50k hours translate to real life, but i only find these more involved formulas, so how much deterioration should i expect, how do i correlate current and/or temperature with that?

while we are at it, i had this problem with the other graph (relative voltage vs case temp) on that page, how do i interpret that? the higher the temp rises the voltage drops? does that mean the current drops as well? that would make the temp go down no? i feel like i am missing something here.
 
cobshopgrow

cobshopgrow

Well-Known Member
the below 50C is what teknik advised for a endless lifetime, and it sounds sensefull.
this will push the leds probably in a lifetime region where you would replace them for other reasons anyway before EOL.

for the efficiency you need to compare the current vs. forward voltage and flux vs current charts especially.
i digitzed the charts at some point to know what lumen per watt i would have at 300mA.
posted it somewhere in my thread.
to my understanding they do the tests with a fixed temparature (25c pulsed) and you need to factor in your temps seperatly.
temps are usecase specific.
you need to factor in the flux vs case chart on your calced result.
you gain a little efficiency over the temparature, basically the lower the temp the better the conductors will conduct, lower resistance, less energy to burn.
but to get 101% you need your led die below 20C, unrealistic, on the other hand you still have almost 98% at 40C so its not only the temp i would say.

normally one should probably factor in the voltage vs. case temp chart too, but well.... should be 99% in my case.

took me also a bit, first i just looked at the flux vs current chart.
 
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eLod

Member
@cobshopgrow thanks, i've read your thread, and though your numbers are useful to compare (and check against the spreadsheet, eg so i read them as you), but i was calculating with eb3 & eb2 not slim strips, so for example the voltages are a bit different. the thermal thread you have linked to in your thread is about the eb2 regular strips (2 ft variants but i guess the characteristics are largely the same in the same series, eg the different lengths), albeit for 700mA to 1.4A, so the upper half. nevertheless both source is very good to better understand the whole situation. anyways i am currently trying to figure out my sweet spot in terms of budget vs W, efficiency and etc.
 
cobshopgrow

cobshopgrow

Well-Known Member
dont make yourself crazy, i think you got it far enough to make a solid decission.
there are differences, but enough info to get the picture.
basically these strips are real cheap! future electronics have a good offer there on the regular eb3.
not hard to doubble the number and avoid any problems, haha 8-)
 
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eLod

Member
well i try to, but you know, every time i just have more and more questions. i am looking at the eb2 currently, its like 30% cheaper, so i guess it's slightly more cost-effective (like 8 eb3 vs 12 eb2, i think the latter is more for me currently). digikey has superb prices for the eb2s, 7.5$ (or 8.4$) for the 112cm (~4ft) ones. so if i plan to squeeze in as much strips/dies from the same budget i guess the eb2 l1120z is my choice. that said i will reevaluate once i better understand the driver and alu prices (i still thinking about driving them very low but also having alu tubes on them so i can go as much as 150%-170% of my current needs with still being "effective". i translate that to for example running the strips at 700mA currently and then be able to go to 1.2A if needed (170%). the thermal thread you have says with "1"x2"x1/16" aluminum tube" the 1.4A temp was 55.5C compared to 71.9C (without cooling), so at 1.2A the 65.4C (without cooling) would translate to around 50C (what you advised). obviously the 700mA i started with was just a value, i plan to go as low as my budget allows. does this sound reasonable?
 
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eLod

Member
ok, so i have made some calculations, and this is what i came up with. (my area is 6ft x 1.3f, 8 sq ft)

1, this would be the samsung f series g3 1ft long (LT-284B), 16 pieces, running them at 0.65A, 22.3V, giving 14.5W and 232W total. i would use 2mm thick (a bit more than 1/16" but less than 1/8") u channels for cooling. i would do a 6ft x 1ft frame and distribute the strips evenly (so around 11cm between the strips, 4.3-4.4")

2, this would be the bridgelux eb gen 2 4ft long (BXEB-L1120Z-*-B3), 16 pieces, running them at 0.4A, 38V, giving 15.2W and 243.2W total. i would use 2mm thick alu again, but the placing is different as the strips are 4ft the grow space is 6ft. also the other direction if i stick all the strips together (meaning non space between them) i already have my full depth, so i plan on a single aluminium u channel, 40cm wide. i still don't know if i should stick all the strips in the center (having no lights directly above 30cm x 40cm area on both sides), or shifting every odd strip to the left and every even to the right.

for both configs i would use a single hlg-480h or two hlg-240h so it has some room to go up if suddenly i have more space. because both of these strips cost the same (around 8.5$) the price is the same (around 135$ for the strips, around 140$ for the driver(s)), the samsung build has a max watt at around 690W, the bridgelux 920W (not that i would ever want to drive them that high), the samsung builds' spacing/spread is more optimal though.

the alu cost is under 25$ if the above is sufficient, do you think it is? how much current would the f strip and the eb one handle with this cooling without going over 40C (given some 21-22C room temp)? and 50?

@Airwalker16 @end_of_the_tunnel @cobshopgrow what do you guys think?
 
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eLod

Member
on a second thought i may be oversizing myself and should build a smaller fixture for the first time. like going with 12 strips (instead of 16) bringing the price down to 170$ (from 275$) would be a more budget variant. driving the LT-284B at 0.9A, 22.7V, 19.3W, 231.6W total, and the BXEB at 0.5A, 38.34V, 19.2W, 230.4W total, everything else kind of the same or follows scaling. so 62% price, 75% "power"/strips.

edit: also the lm/w (for the low currents i stated) for samsung is around 182-184 (40-50C) for 16 strips and 176-179 for 12 strips (from samsung calculator). for bxeb around 195 for 16, around 194 for 12 (from @cobshopgrow 's thread which is for the slim one).
 
Last edited:
Airwalker16

Airwalker16

Well-Known Member
I would just use the 1' strips and build 2 1'x3' fixtures. 1 6' long fixture will drive you crazy for hanging heights. 2 will give you some variability. 3 1'x2' fixtures would be even better.
 
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eLod

Member
@Airwalker16 thanks for the reply. for the 6ft frame i was thinking like the ledgardener guide eg this https://ledgardener.com/samsung-lm561c-build-finishing-touches/, the setup is very similar to mine (i only have 2 boxes and a propagator, his is 8ft long, mine is 6ft). i have a solid wooden frame around and above my boxes (around 130-135 cm tall) i can hang the frame(s) from. i understand you are saying i can better control parts individually if i break it up into multiple frames, however the wiring is a bit more solid with a single frame (using a single driver, and i plan on mounting it on the frame). i will think about it thanks.
 
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