medicineman
New Member
Will someone on this forum please explain to me just what it is the libertarians expect from this society? Please be specific? Don't dance around with grand illusions! Just come out and say what you want to happen!
Libertarian gobblygook
- Thread starter medicineman
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DankyDank
Well-Known Member
As a guy who is pretty much a Libertarian, I don't think you can talk about the Libertarian vision without courting "grand illusions." But I think this can be said for any party that envisions possibilities outside of the one-party system we have now. That would include the Peace and Freedom party, the Greens, etc.
I don't see anything close to the Libertarian vision happening within my lifetime. It has taken at least 40-50 years for us to reach the point we are at now, and I don't see things even starting to move in the right direction. Assuming things did start changing for the better, I think it would take at least the same amount of time to reach the point where we could live free from coercion. And frankly, it's GOOD that it would take that long. We now have at least two generations of people that are completely dependent on government, emotionally if not monetarily; we have created whole classes of people who cannot even function free of the government teat. It would not be prudent or right to yank all of that away overnight.
Back to your post, you asked what Libertarians "expect." I EXPECT that things will go on as usual, with government getting bigger, spending more, needing more to spend, soaking the rich by pushing the politics of class envy, and killing every goose with every golden egg while they hypocritically attack those entities that they have been feeding off of.
If you were to ask what I HOPE for, you would get a much different answer. But my hopes for the future are really for my child's future- as I said before, I don't expect any change in my lifetime. In the meantime, I have decided to find a place where I can LIVE my dream, and am not that concerned about pushing it on other people. I live like a Libertarian as much as I can. I still have to pay my fucking taxes, but I cheat where I can safely do so, and give the money to the more deserving. I live in the woods away from neighbors. I can walk around outside naked with a gun in one hand and a joint in the other. I can grow dope and brew beer, and I can have sex outside. And I EXPECT I will continue to live this way until I die, or until government gets big enough to stop me.
BTW go to Official Website of the Libertarian National Committee if you really want to know where the party stands on particular issues. You will probably be happy to know that they oppose corporate welfare, and support getting out of Iraq.
DankyDank
I don't see anything close to the Libertarian vision happening within my lifetime. It has taken at least 40-50 years for us to reach the point we are at now, and I don't see things even starting to move in the right direction. Assuming things did start changing for the better, I think it would take at least the same amount of time to reach the point where we could live free from coercion. And frankly, it's GOOD that it would take that long. We now have at least two generations of people that are completely dependent on government, emotionally if not monetarily; we have created whole classes of people who cannot even function free of the government teat. It would not be prudent or right to yank all of that away overnight.
Back to your post, you asked what Libertarians "expect." I EXPECT that things will go on as usual, with government getting bigger, spending more, needing more to spend, soaking the rich by pushing the politics of class envy, and killing every goose with every golden egg while they hypocritically attack those entities that they have been feeding off of.
If you were to ask what I HOPE for, you would get a much different answer. But my hopes for the future are really for my child's future- as I said before, I don't expect any change in my lifetime. In the meantime, I have decided to find a place where I can LIVE my dream, and am not that concerned about pushing it on other people. I live like a Libertarian as much as I can. I still have to pay my fucking taxes, but I cheat where I can safely do so, and give the money to the more deserving. I live in the woods away from neighbors. I can walk around outside naked with a gun in one hand and a joint in the other. I can grow dope and brew beer, and I can have sex outside. And I EXPECT I will continue to live this way until I die, or until government gets big enough to stop me.
BTW go to Official Website of the Libertarian National Committee if you really want to know where the party stands on particular issues. You will probably be happy to know that they oppose corporate welfare, and support getting out of Iraq.
DankyDank
DankyDank
Well-Known Member
I won't pretend to know what a "corporate supremist" is, but I will say that as a Libertarian for the last 25+ years, I'm not aware of any changes in party platform regarding economics. So if they fit your definition of corporate supremists, I suspect they ALWAYS were- it's not something they "became."
Dankdude
Well-Known Member
My point is that Libertarians, (and I was one for many years) have changed the attatudes that go right along with the Neo-Conservitives.
But over time I have found a lot of flaws under a libertarian Ideology.
While there are many good things to say about Libertarianism, such as its good injection of common sense into some debates, Libertarianism, as an ideology, quickly runs into some paradoxes. Perhaps not paradoxes in the strict mathematical definition of the term, but still, there are occasions when the ideology ends up taking away the very thing it promises: people's natural rights to move and do as they please.
I will present a very simple situation: the story of Farmer Jones, who owns a nice farm in the country. He is surrounded by eight other farmers, who let him carry his produce down to market every week so he can buy bread and new spades. They live in an arrangement like this:
| |
----------
|Jones|
---------
| |
Now, one day in our libertarian society, while Farmer Jones is sleeping, Banker Smith sneaks in and buys the eight surrounding fields for fair market value and since there is no pesky land use laws or zoning permits, puts up an entire shopping center in the middle of the night. Farmer Jones wakes up the next morning, and decides to go to town. However, Banker Smith doesn't want Hillbillies ruining the atmosphere of his brand new shopping center, so he tells Farmer Jones to stay off his land, which is well protected by uzi toting security guards (since there is no pesky gun control laws, either). Now, within our libertarian society people have a right to make decisions about their own personal property, and the government doesn't have a right to pull some eminent domain and tell Banker Smith who he can and can not let onto his land. Therefore, Banker Smith is fully within his rights to shoot Farmer Jones; and Farmer Jones very natural human right to travel as he pleases is undermined by a radical notion of property rights.
This is, of course, an extreme example of libertarian ideology. However, if you admit that it is not fair for Banker Smith to confine Farmer Jones to his patch of land until he dies, it also makes sense that Banker Smith could not ruin Farmer Jones' land by opening up hog rendering plants on the adjacent eight fields, or building heliports that frighten all of the Farmer's cows to death. And next thing you know, you have 5,000 page OSHA manuals on acceptable ergonomic chairs. Once it is accepted that libertarian ideology could strip people of their natural rights, libertarianism becomes a matter of common sense. Which sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't.
Most ideologies are flawed, and they are usually flawed for much the same reason: they have some shaky metaphysics that they won't admit to, for fear of exposing their intrinsic logical flaws or their non-relevance to the real world. Libertarian ideology comes from a metaphysics common in English philosophy, that is, the metaphysics of atoms and the void, the belief that the world can be reduced down to agents working in a neutral worldspace. According to this belief, people are agents that work in the world, and whatever they choose to do only effects them directly. To hurt another person, they must do it an agentic way: such as slipping a knife in their gut. This is the same belief system, that, when applied to economics, says that an agent or group of agents cannot influence the market conditions.
When taken to a radical extent, this metaphysics says that no agent can ever hurt another agent by interfering with the field itself: for an agent to hurt another agent, it must act directly against another agent. And yet, in our example, Banker Smith's eight fields work as eight agents to hurt Farmer Jones by depriving him of his ability to interact with the field. This is an extreme example, as examples often are, and put in a very obvious physical context: however, once the principle is understood, the same argument can be made about situations that do not involve Euler characteristics.
But over time I have found a lot of flaws under a libertarian Ideology.
While there are many good things to say about Libertarianism, such as its good injection of common sense into some debates, Libertarianism, as an ideology, quickly runs into some paradoxes. Perhaps not paradoxes in the strict mathematical definition of the term, but still, there are occasions when the ideology ends up taking away the very thing it promises: people's natural rights to move and do as they please.
I will present a very simple situation: the story of Farmer Jones, who owns a nice farm in the country. He is surrounded by eight other farmers, who let him carry his produce down to market every week so he can buy bread and new spades. They live in an arrangement like this:
| |
----------
|Jones|
---------
| |
Now, one day in our libertarian society, while Farmer Jones is sleeping, Banker Smith sneaks in and buys the eight surrounding fields for fair market value and since there is no pesky land use laws or zoning permits, puts up an entire shopping center in the middle of the night. Farmer Jones wakes up the next morning, and decides to go to town. However, Banker Smith doesn't want Hillbillies ruining the atmosphere of his brand new shopping center, so he tells Farmer Jones to stay off his land, which is well protected by uzi toting security guards (since there is no pesky gun control laws, either). Now, within our libertarian society people have a right to make decisions about their own personal property, and the government doesn't have a right to pull some eminent domain and tell Banker Smith who he can and can not let onto his land. Therefore, Banker Smith is fully within his rights to shoot Farmer Jones; and Farmer Jones very natural human right to travel as he pleases is undermined by a radical notion of property rights.
This is, of course, an extreme example of libertarian ideology. However, if you admit that it is not fair for Banker Smith to confine Farmer Jones to his patch of land until he dies, it also makes sense that Banker Smith could not ruin Farmer Jones' land by opening up hog rendering plants on the adjacent eight fields, or building heliports that frighten all of the Farmer's cows to death. And next thing you know, you have 5,000 page OSHA manuals on acceptable ergonomic chairs. Once it is accepted that libertarian ideology could strip people of their natural rights, libertarianism becomes a matter of common sense. Which sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't.
Most ideologies are flawed, and they are usually flawed for much the same reason: they have some shaky metaphysics that they won't admit to, for fear of exposing their intrinsic logical flaws or their non-relevance to the real world. Libertarian ideology comes from a metaphysics common in English philosophy, that is, the metaphysics of atoms and the void, the belief that the world can be reduced down to agents working in a neutral worldspace. According to this belief, people are agents that work in the world, and whatever they choose to do only effects them directly. To hurt another person, they must do it an agentic way: such as slipping a knife in their gut. This is the same belief system, that, when applied to economics, says that an agent or group of agents cannot influence the market conditions.
When taken to a radical extent, this metaphysics says that no agent can ever hurt another agent by interfering with the field itself: for an agent to hurt another agent, it must act directly against another agent. And yet, in our example, Banker Smith's eight fields work as eight agents to hurt Farmer Jones by depriving him of his ability to interact with the field. This is an extreme example, as examples often are, and put in a very obvious physical context: however, once the principle is understood, the same argument can be made about situations that do not involve Euler characteristics.
Dankdude
Well-Known Member
here is a link to pages on Critiques Of Libertarianism .
Critiques Of Libertarianism
Critiques Of Libertarianism
medicineman
New Member
And so what about Dankdudes post, because it does not agree with you, you think it less effective. I saw it as a refutation of the basic tenets of liberatarian concepts, nothing less and for that matter, all political structures have their weaknesses. That is basically why I refuse to let my views be defined with any one political structure. I can even see some good in libertarian thinking, but like any concentric viewpoint, it has some flaws. When private entities are left to their own demise they will by nature tread on someone elses rights!Me thinks that we have a person posting in the forum who can present his case brilliantly. Thanks DankyDank.
Vi
ViRedd
New Member
You know Med ... I have to compliment you. When you leave the expletives out of your posts, you can be very articulate. That's appreciated.
I didn't respond to the Dankster's post because by his own admission he is using extreme examples. There are extremists in every political party, including the Libertarian Party.
Vi
medicineman
New Member
Might that be because I said there might be some good in libertarian thinking? You are so shallow, what about my other 1,000 posts, nothing there rings a bell?
ViRedd
New Member
"You are so shallow, what about my other 1,000 posts, nothing there rings a bell?"
In your other 1000 posts, you've tried to convince us that taking from A, in order to give to B, through government force is "compassion." The only "bell" that rings is my sense of right and wrong.
Vi
In your other 1000 posts, you've tried to convince us that taking from A, in order to give to B, through government force is "compassion." The only "bell" that rings is my sense of right and wrong.
Vi
medicineman
New Member
Well here's what he was referring to!
Philosophy
- In the beginning, man dwelt in a state of Nature, until the serpent Government tempted man into Initial Coercion.
- Government is the Great Satan. All Evil comes from Government, and all Good from the Market, according to the Ayatollah Rand.
- We must worship the Horatio Alger fantasy that the meritorious few will just happen to have the lucky breaks that make them rich. Libertarians happen to be the meritorious few by ideological correctness. The rest can go hang.
- Government cannot own things because only individuals can own things. Except for corporations, partnerships, joint ownership, marriage, and anything else we except but government.
- Parrot these arguments, and you too will be a singular, creative, reasoning individualist.
- Parents cannot choose a government for their children any more than they can choose language, residence, school, or religion.
- Taxation is theft because we have a right to squat in the US and benefit from defense, infrastructure, police, courts, etc. without obligation.
- Magic incantations can overturn society and bring about libertopia. Sovereign citizenry! The 16th Amendment is invalid! States rights!
- Objectivist/Neo-Tech Advantage #69i : The true measure of fully integrated honesty is whether the sucker has opened his wallet. Thus sayeth the Profit Wallace. Zonpower Rules Nerdspace!
- The great Zen riddle of libertarianism: minimal government is necessary and unnecessary. The answer is only to be found by individuals.
Government
- Libertarians invented outrage over government waste, bureaucracy, injustice, etc. Nobody else thinks they are bad, knows they exist, or works to stop them.
- Enlightenment comes only through repetition of the sacred mantra "Government does not work" according to Guru Browne.
- Only government is force, no matter how many Indians were killed by settlers to acquire their property, no matter how many blacks were enslaved and sold by private companies, no matter how many heads of union members are broken by private police.
- Money that government touches spontaneously combusts, destroying the economy. Money retained by individuals grows the economy, even if literally burnt.
- Private education works, public education doesn't. The publicly educated masses that have grown the modern economies of the past 150 years are an illusion.
- Market failures, trusts, and oligopolies are lies spread by the evil economists serving the government as described in the "Protocols of the Elders of Statism".
- Central planning cannot work. Which is why all businesses internally are run like little markets, with no centralized leadership.
- Paternalism is the worst thing that can be inflicted upon people, as everyone knows that fathers are the most hated and reviled figures in the world.
- Government is like fire, a dangerous servant and a fearsome master. Therefore, we should avoid it entirely, as we do all forms of combustion.
Regulation
- The FDA is solely responsible for any death or sickness where it might have prevented treatment by the latest unproven fad.
- Children, criminals, death cultists, and you all have the same inalienable right to own any weaponry: conventional, chemical, biological, or nuclear.
- All food, drugs, and medical treatments should be entirely unregulated: every industry should be able to kill 300,000 per year in the US like the tobacco industry.
- If you don't have a gun, you are not a libertarian. If you do have a gun, why don't you have even more powerful armament?
- Better to abolish all regulations, consider everything as property, and solve all controversy by civil lawsuit over damages. The US doesn't have enough lawyers, and people who can't afford to invest many thousands of dollars in lawsuits should shut up.
Libertarian Party
- The Libertarian Party is well on its way to dominating the political landscape, judging from its power base of 100+ elected dogcatchers and other important officials after 25 years of effort.
- The "Party of Oxymoron": "Individualists unite!"
- Flip answers are more powerful than the best reasoned arguments, which is why so many libertarians are in important government positions.
- It's time the new pro-freedom libertarian platform was implemented; child labor, orphanages, sweatshops, poorhouses, company towns, monopolies, trusts, cartels, blacklists, private goons, slumlords, etc.
- Libertarianism "rules" Internet political debate the same way US Communism "ruled" pamphleteering.
- No compromise from the "Party of Principle". Justice, happiness, liberty, guns, and other good stuff come only from rigidly adhering to inflexible dogmas.
- Minimal government is whatever we say it is, and we don't agree.
- Government is "moving steadily in a libertarian direction" with every change libertarians approve of; no matter if it takes one step forward and two steps backwards.
- Yes, the symbol of the Libertarian Party is a Big Government Statue. It's not supposed to be funny or ironic!
Political Debate Strategy
- Count only the benefits of libertarianism, count only the costs of government.
- Five of a factoid beats a full argument.
- All historical examples are tainted by statism, except when they favor libertarian claims.
- Spiritually baptize the deceased as libertarians because they cannot protest the anachronism: Locke, Smith, Paine, Jefferson, Spooner, etc.
- The most heavily armed libertarian has the biggest dick and thus the best argument.
- The best multi-party democratic republics should be equated to the worst dictatorships for the purposes of denouncing statism. It's only a matter of degree.
- Inviolate private property is the only true measure of freedom. Those without property have the freedom to try to acquire it. If they can't, let them find somebody else's property to complain on.
- Private ownership is the cure for all problems, despite the historical record of privately owned states such as Nazi Germany, Czarist and Stalinist Russia, and Maoist China.
- Require perfection as the only applicable standard to judge government: libertarianism, being imaginary, cannot be fairly judged to have flaws.
- Only libertarian economists' Nobel Prizes count: the other economists and Nobel Prize Committee are mistaken.
- Any exceptional case of private production proves that government ought not to be involved.