• Here is a link to the full explanation: https://rollitup.org/t/welcome-back-did-you-try-turning-it-off-and-on-again.1104810/

Lets be honest and talk about microbes there use, affects and cost

DCcan

DCcan

Well-Known Member
The kelp and char additives in Recharge/etc convince people that the microbes are working fast. Great for half dead plants, keeps anything else from moving in. I bought a bag after XtremeMykos, it was obvious later they were antagonistic.
It's not a bad product per se, just different philosophy for growing, expensive, also doesn't require a steep learning curve.

The application timing, what to tank mix, how to tank mix, understanding foliar vs root vs soil application, learning biology, all that goes away with Recharge.
It's a huge learning curve to figure out the rhizobiome, most the gains are incremental but compounding upon each other.

 
getogrow

getogrow

Well-Known Member
DCcan said:
The kelp and char additives in Recharge/etc convince people that the microbes are working fast. Great for half dead plants, keeps anything else from moving in. I bought a bag after XtremeMykos, it was obvious later they were antagonistic.
It's not a bad product per se, just different philosophy for growing, expensive, also doesn't require a steep learning curve.

The application timing, what to tank mix, how to tank mix, understanding foliar vs root vs soil application, learning biology, all that goes away with Recharge.
It's a huge learning curve to figure out the rhizobiome, most the gains are incremental but compounding upon each other.

Click to expand...
This is the type of stuff that really interest me. Im gonna grab a microscope just for the hell of it to check things out a bit closer....
 
DCcan

DCcan

Well-Known Member
Apparently, roots will encourage Mycos , fungus and bacteria to grow in different zones, then encourage or inhibit them as the roots grow and age.
Pretty long winded article
www.sciencedirect.com

Feed Your Friends: Do Plant Exudates Shape the Root Microbiome?

Plant health in natural environments depends on interactions with complex and dynamic communities comprising macro- and microorganisms. While many stu…
www.sciencedirect.com www.sciencedirect.com
 
getogrow

getogrow

Well-Known Member
DCcan said:
Apparently, roots will encourage Mycos , fungus and bacteria to grow in different zones, then encourage or inhibit them as the roots grow and age.
Pretty long winded article
www.sciencedirect.com

Feed Your Friends: Do Plant Exudates Shape the Root Microbiome?

Plant health in natural environments depends on interactions with complex and dynamic communities comprising macro- and microorganisms. While many stu…
www.sciencedirect.com www.sciencedirect.com
Click to expand...
yes the roots feed them and form a relationship that i have clue how to begin to understand , let alone explain :eyesmoke:
 
D

dirtfromohio

Member
DCcan said:
Apparently, roots will encourage Mycos , fungus and bacteria to grow in different zones, then encourage or inhibit them as the roots grow and age.
Pretty long winded article
www.sciencedirect.com

Feed Your Friends: Do Plant Exudates Shape the Root Microbiome?

Plant health in natural environments depends on interactions with complex and dynamic communities comprising macro- and microorganisms. While many stu…
www.sciencedirect.com www.sciencedirect.com
Click to expand...
Yeah it's cool. Once the symbiotic relationship between the plant and the mycorrhizal fungi is formed then the plant can tell the fungi to grow or actually shrink or it can just tell it to stop giving it the nutrients that it's picking up depending on what the plants own roots can pick up itself. In fact it's something like as little as 50 parts per million of phosphorus in the soil that is available to the plant and the plant tells the mycorrhizae to completely just stop doing whatever it's doing. It's still there. It's living. It's got that same relationship with the plant. But when the plant can take care of itself the mycorrhizal fungi doesn't do anything. This also includes water because the mycorrhizal fungi hyphae are essentially just extensions of the roots once they infect them and the plant becomes inoculated. Just by nature of hydraulic redistribution moisture in the medium is going to spread fairly evenly but all the hyphae that attach to the roots assist in making that transport mechanism even more efficient.

It's cool. Plants are cool.
 
Qube

Qube

Well-Known Member
Northwood said:
Not only fight with each other but also eat each other, and they'll cheat in war and use chemical warfare against their enemies. If that doesn't work, they'll just try dominate and use all the food to themselves. The microscopic world is a terrifying place that you wouldn't want to be born into. Lol
Click to expand...
This is an amazing Sci-Fi movie plot. I totally imagined them flying around dog fighting each other as if in space. Imagine "Inner Space x Star wars" LOL. My latest harvest is pretty good.
 
Tejashidrow

Tejashidrow

Well-Known Member
dirtfromohio said:
I think the first part you're talking about inoculating with a mycorrhizal fungi. You would do this first and really only once, maybe twice if you wanted to be sure. And you do it as early into a plant's life as possible. That network is going to establish itself and, depending on what the plant tells it to do, grow or shrink. It essentially becomes a part of the plant and the plant becomes a part of it. Once you get your seedling into some medium then you apply the beneficial bacteria that we see in lot of products. Then after you are comfortable that you've established a healthy and thriving bacterial colony in your dirt you would apply the trichoderms.

I can get down with that. But how would a product like Recharge fit in here when it's like, everything you mentioned. It has some small amount of mycorrhizal spores, some beneficial bactera, some trichoderms, some dead plant material. I feel like it's some weird all in one "booster" and not even a real fixer. Like on the package it says "guaranteed better looking plants in 48 hours" or something like that. Well it has kelp in it so plants are generally gonna like that as a food. So now that that's there gotta make sure plants can eat it so the bacterial colony that's maybe activated should help to buffer things a little and allow the plants to uptake that humic and fulvic acids. Not sure what the purpose of using this as a mycorrhizal inoculant would be, though. Using it at the beginning of a grow seems pretty wasteful but that's when you want to inoculate with mycorrhizae. And then yeah so anyway the microbes are doing their thing breaking stuff down for the plant to eat and then the trichoderms are also add at the same time so are they just decimating the microbe colony you're trying to establish before they even have a chance?

You'd think I have some personal vendetta against Recharge but it just seems like this immensely wasteful product. And if it can be compared to many of the other microbe products on the market, there might not even be any active life in a bag of recharge by the time a retail consumer gets their hands on it. So many other products are lab tested to be completely lying on their labels.

Anyway, didn't mean to rant again. Still get heated when I see people applying Recharge more than once or twice in a grow. If you have to do that to see a boost in your plants there are other issues you need to address in your garden. IMO you shouldn't really be able to "boost" your plants into looking better. If you're caring for them and meeting their needs they're gonna look as best as they are capable of per their genetics.
Click to expand...
Has anyone mentioned the differsnce between container gardening/growing and in the ground ( or over 20 gallon container) growing/gardening???

I’m looking at both sides and I see where if one is in the ground, 1 or 2 inoculation is all that’s needed.
But growing in smaller containers need more inoculations.
Just my take... right or wrong.
 
Tejashidrow

Tejashidrow

Well-Known Member
getogrow said:
View attachment 4901713

My local effective* microbes.


* "Effective" may mean poisonous in my case :eyesmoke:

I brewed this batch with a couple tbsp's of my first batch. After i make bokashi with it , i may or may not need to add yeast for a quicker breakdown.
Click to expand...

Pretty sure what ever small amount of local bacteria in the south west dessert where I live is not all that conducive for growing canninbis. And makeing a inoculate from it would be under whelming. Dead dirt and cactus.
 
Tejashidrow

Tejashidrow

Well-Known Member
DCcan said:
I've been leery of making more bokashi since drinking out of the aged beer can with cigarette butts.
Never got sick, other than the normal gag reaction. All types stuff in nicotine, probably not the best ingredient.
Click to expand...
Not quite seeing the Bokashi and cigarette in drank old beer symbiotic relationship....
 
DCcan

DCcan

Well-Known Member
New study looking at colonization rates of plants with B.bassiana and how application affects colonization against pathogens.
Another study looked at Bacillus subtilis and Gliocladium catenulatum, against Botrytis cinerea.
Leaf, vascular and stem colonization, as well as roots is dealt with both studies.
Spaying during critical leaf development seems to be the key to effective usage, as well as reduced usage.

:arrow::arrow::arrow: Selection of Endophytic Beauveria bassiana as a Dual Biocontrol Agent of Tomato Pathogens and Pests

"The results indicated that tomato plant tissues were endophytically colonized by B. bassiana following a repeated soil-drench treatment with a conidia suspension. All of the 10 experimental isolates were able to successfully infect and establish themselves in tomato roots, stems, and leaves. Endophytic colonization observed within the plant tissues was much higher in the hypogeal tissues of the roots, where the colonization rate was close to 100% compared to the leaves, where it ranged from 10 to 50%."

:arrow::arrow::arrow: Evaluation of Two Commercial Biocontrol Agents for Their Efficacy against B. cinerea

"This study has shown that both BCAs inhibit the colonization of B. cinerea inoculum in vitro over a range of temperatures, with formulated versions having an advantage in the control efficacy. Dose–response curves of both BCAS against B. cinerea were developed and shown to be influenced by temperature, formulation and leaf part. In situ studies on lettuce leaves, especially the spatial variability of biocontrol related to leaf positions, showed the importance of taking the phyllosphere morphology into account when delivering BCAs to such surfaces to control this important pathogen."
 
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Antidote Man

Antidote Man

Well-Known Member
I use mykos when i transplant.

I use Bush Doctor Microbe Brew in veg, along with Roots Excelurator, Great White & Orca, which I taper off during early flower.

I'm curious if anyone uses Great White & Orca all throughout flowering.
 
Mr. Bakerton

Mr. Bakerton

Well-Known Member
Im half paying attention. SOrry Its hard to follow along to the T on a 7 page thread. I wanted to share this, I premix my soil prior to using for transplanting. I try to get about a week to 2 for rest if I'm watching the calendar. Last time I mixed some FFs Ocean Forest and Happy Frog with recharge, used what I needed and left the rest in a soil bag for 60 days. When I opened it I found it was alive! I've been taking handfuls of this and putting it in other bags as I use them. In attempt to keep it going. It hasn't been long enough to confirm, I'm just having fun. In general I like playing with fungus and have grown oysters, etc. Some of which I have kept it going by moving inoculated mix from one medium to another over time.
 

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ComputerSaysNo

ComputerSaysNo

Well-Known Member
hotrodharley said:
Cloning - I take my cut. Scrape the outer layer of stem off with the edge of a knife. Split the stem about a half inch and dip in Clonex or honey and then in Mykos. Straight into Black Gold seedling mix in a Dixie cup. Then forget about it except checking to make sure it’s slightly damp. Try it. Works in straight vermiculite as well.
Click to expand...
What also works is: take the cut, put in rockwool (or anything), and wait.

All the scraping and splitting and dipping maybe helps a little, but it's not necessary. I guess if you have a cultivar that is super hard to clone, then some incantations can help.

My worst cloning run had 75% success rate, and I didn't know what I was doing, most of the cuttings were too young and too small, and I only had willow water extract (no Clonex), put them all into nutrient-poor seedling mix (something peat-based, I don't remember).

Probably the most effective way to speed up cloning is to use a bubbler or aeroponics cloner. At least from what I've heard (in the StinkBud thread he basically says: "I'll just throw them in, not even a humidity dome, they all root fast"; and he's probably taken thousands of clones).

I don't think the professional breeders and growers scrape and split and dip thousands of cuttings either. Not very economical.
 
ComputerSaysNo

ComputerSaysNo

Well-Known Member
xtsho said:
Many things are good but not needed. Where does one draw the line and stop paying for products? I have great harvests of good weed without those products. Do they help? Some do. Are they necessary? No. Are they worth the money? Not at all.
Click to expand...
I totally agree with you there. So much stuff out there that maybe helps, maybe a little, with no good way to tell for the average grower. In most cases the benefits are so small that it's impossible to tell.

If there was a 20% increase in vigor or yield or whatever, there would not be a discussion. Threads like this one only exist because the benefits of most of this stuff are so small that it's now down to gut feeling and beliefs.

It has to be said however, that supplements like Trichoderma and bacillus amoliquefaciens are not expensive at all, you only have to stay away from Cannabis suppliers like Advanced Nutrients who are masters at marketing and overpricing.

But overall, you're right. Even if the stuff is cheap, one still does end up with a lot of bottles, and it all sums up, and it's a lot of additional work for probably not much benefit.
 
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hotrodharley

hotrodharley

Well-Known Member
ComputerSaysNo said:
What also works is: take the cut, put in rockwool (or anything), and wait.

All the scraping and splitting and dipping maybe helps a little, but it's not necessary. I guess if you have a cultivar that is super hard to clone, then some incantations can help.

My worst cloning run had 75% success rate, and I didn't know what I was doing, most of the cuttings were too young and too small, and I only had willow water extract (no Clonex), put them all into nutrient-poor seedling mix (something peat-based, I don't remember).

Probably the most effective way to speed up cloning is to use a bubbler or aeroponics cloner. At least from what I've heard (in the StinkBud thread he basically says: "I'll just throw them in, not even a humidity dome, they all root fast"; and he's probably taken thousands of clones).

I don't think the professional breeders and growers scrape and split and dip thousands of cuttings either. Not very economical.
Click to expand...
Whatever. Read many posts here? Doubt we're educating or helping "professional" breeders here.
 
hotrodharley

hotrodharley

Well-Known Member
ComputerSaysNo said:
So then let's do "whatever". Let's keep following every cargo cult that ever existed.

Obviously you can clone your cuttings every which way you want, all I did was to point out that it can be had much simpler as well.
Click to expand...
Hell you can cut it and put it in a cup of water and leave in low light and they'll root. Sometimes it doesn't hurt to give them a boost.
 
ComputerSaysNo

ComputerSaysNo

Well-Known Member
hotrodharley said:
Sometimes it doesn't hurt to give them a boost.
Click to expand...
I'm all for that.

I've found the following two studies on cloning:
  • https://bclna.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/IPPS-Paper-pdf.pdf
    This is from Bruce Bugbee's lab; sadly I can't find the actual paper.
    It basically says "scraping helps a little" and "younger branches root more easily"
  • https://cdnsciencepub.com/doi/full/10.1139/cjps-2018-0038
    I'm just reading this. It looks quite comprehensive and interesting.
    It says that "hormone is better than willow extract", "cutting leaf tips is bad" (I will certainly stop doing that), "position of cutting does not matter much" (that's in contradiction to the above study), "more leaves are better", and "rooting hormone/willow extract helps a lot"
Nobody appears to do stem splitting. In Cervante's book it is mentioned, I've done it too, not sure if it's important at all. I think Cervantes wrote something like "there will be earlier roots, but not as many".

Also, nothing on lighting conditions. I assume it does not matter. I don't think "low light" is important at all.

If somebody else knows of some scientific studies (does not have to be Cannabis, just close enough), I'd be interested in reading them.
 
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GanjaJack

GanjaJack

Well-Known Member
I'm confused as to why anyone would be dishonest about microbes to begin with?

For clones, all I do is Black Gold seedling mix in a 6oz cup, then put another 6 oz on top as a dome. I get roots in 2 weeks.

I've done the EzCloner as well. Using microbes and their cloning solution. I split the stem as Cervante suggested... I usually end up with roots in 4 days... Or slime... One or the other. Depending on temperature which is extremely difficult to keep dialed in exactly in my grow due to fluctuating winter temps.....
 
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