LED vs vertical HPS (PPF and other things)

V

VegasWinner

Well-Known Member
I build custom aeroponics systems. I used to build large systems with large 50 gal totes for holding multiple plants. Now I build individual pots/buckets for each plant with individual pump. moe expensive but more reliable. I use 360 clone spinners for my aero connected to a pond pump with 1/2" pvc.Some use multiple spinners in a t-fashion and others use one spinner like a pin, all work great. I use various size buckets dependent on desired plant size. paint buckets work buckets, totes, etc I even have external pumps for larger totes and trees if I desire.
My system is one on four off and I get great growth and I use screens to keep roots out of my pumps. roots are always white and long.
 
Enigma

Enigma

Well-Known Member
What about a two-sided VSoG?

112 sites, aeroponics, low pressure.

At one ounce per clone that would be seven pounds, at a half ounce per clone that is three and a half pounds. This would fit inside of a 4' x 4' tent to use the walls.

Your thoughts?

Besides plant count.

@ttystikk
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Enigma said:
What about a two-sided VSoG?

112 sites, aeroponics, low pressure.

At one ounce per clone that would be seven pounds, at a half ounce per clone that is three and a half pounds. This would fit inside of a 4' x 4' tent to use the walls.

Your thoughts?

Besides plant count.

@ttystikk
Click to expand...
Two sided inside a tent? How would that work?
 
Organic Miner

Organic Miner

Well-Known Member
canadian1969 said:
I have been thinking along these lines, but dont have a space adequate to test.
I would try something like this if I could and would love to see someone try it.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Gladiator-73-in-H-x-77-in-W-x-24-in-D-4-Shelf-Welded-Steel-Garage-Shelving-Unit-GARS774XEG/206727800
Raise the bottom shelf, put your pumps, reservoirs under it, put the power/electronics on top
The 560mm EB strips would fit perfectly at 22" each leaving 1" edge clearance (running front to back)
Not sure what the height adjustment should be for proper coverage so that would impact how many strips needed
At a guess I figure 20" between shelves, so maybe 4" gaps, 15 strips per shelf?
You could build the strips right into the shelf or build fixtures and hang them from under the wire shelves. Lots of clearance.
Plenty of airflow between the shelves and the heat from the strips should function like a heating mat for the clone trays above. May need actual heating mats for the bottom shelf as there would be no LEDs under it.
Go with cheap flood and drain, 2x2 flood tables, I couldn't find any 72x24 flood tables but they prolly exist, that would be the bomb, but 3 2x2's per shelf would work. Maybe pipe them together.

So ... for driver selection reasons lets say 54 strips
54 EB strips @ $8 each = $432 (so 18 strips per shelf)
9 HLG-185H-C1400B drivers @ $60 = $540
[each bank of 6 strips will dim from 10 to 200 watts. Keeping them dimmed at 50% for optimal efficiency would be about 300 watts per shelf, 900 watts operational, with the option to kick it up if needed.
Lets say a few hundred for all the misc crap. So maybe $1300.
6'*2' = 12 sq' * 3 shelves = 36 sq' 900 watts / 36 sq' = 25 watts per sq foot.
I bet you could pull 2 pounds per run. If it works and you can do a consistent 1.5 gpw @ 900 watts is like 3 pounds.

You are now vertical farming, one run pays for itself.

edit: if you had the space and could line up about 4 of these plus tents for your mothers, thats some pretty high density growing.
Click to expand...
My previous veg room used those. I had a double decker 16 bucket RDWC setup. It was pretty cool, if I say so myself. Single resivour system. I need to find some photos.
 
Enigma

Enigma

Well-Known Member
ttystikk said:
Two sided inside a tent? How would that work?
Click to expand...
I ran some trig and found for the lighting source it would be more realistic to use a 3' x 3' space because of the angular radiance.

Still, I think with LED it would be possible to pull three pounds.

The problem I'm running into is not getting enough light with out adding side lights. The 4' x 4' would need EBs on alongside the V29s.

I do believe someone on this board pulled a pound or more from a 3' x 3' tent using five COBs, I do not recall the manufacturer or any specs.

From my calculations, five V29s would be able to accomplish that goal passively cooled. Having five, I would use two 4000K and three 3000K to mix the spectrums, SE versions as well.

The big issue is the angular radiance, spreading the light is key, no lenses or reflectors.

I wonder what the PPFD would be with an area 3.5' x 4' with five V29s driven at 1050 mA. @Rahz
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Enigma said:
I ran some trig and found for the lighting source it would be more realistic to use a 3' x 3' space because of the angular radiance.

Still, I think with LED it would be possible to pull three pounds.

The problem I'm running into is not getting enough light with out adding side lights. The 4' x 4' would need EBs on alongside the V29s.

I do believe someone on this board pulled a pound or more from a 3' x 3' tent using five COBs, I do not recall the manufacturer or any specs.

From my calculations, five V29s would be able to accomplish that goal passively cooled. Having five, I would use two 4000K and three 3000K to mix the spectrums, SE versions as well.

The big issue is the angular radiance, spreading the light is key, no lenses or reflectors.

I wonder what the PPFD would be with an area 3.5' x 4' with five V29s driven at 1050 mA. @Rahz
Click to expand...
That's the power requirement but I don't see how you get a double sided VSCRoG into a 3x3 tent in the first place?
 
Enigma

Enigma

Well-Known Member
ttystikk said:
That's the power requirement but I don't see how you get a double sided VSCRoG into a 3x3 tent in the first place?
Click to expand...

I sent you not-to-scale sketches.

I tried to communicate how a RDWC system works and its advantages to another member, it had to be five paragraphs.

:leaf:
 
Rahz

Rahz

Well-Known Member
Enigma said:
I think the Dual-VSoG is realistic with today's technology.

What do you think the yield would be with that area and light concentration? @Rahz
Click to expand...
Just the Veros, possible to hit around 20 zips in DWC. Adding light below the canopy I hesitate to take a guess.
 
Enigma

Enigma

Well-Known Member
Rahz said:
Just the Veros, possible to hit around 20 zips in DWC. Adding light below the canopy I hesitate to take a guess.
Click to expand...

Ok, let's keep things simple.

In theory, twenty zips from a 3.5' x 4' double-sided would make the overall yield forty.

Two and a half pounds isn't far from my estimation of three.

I think I'm finally on to something here..

Thanks for your input @Rahz !!!

Aside: it would be an aeroponics system to increase the wet/dry frequency of the root system.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Enigma said:
Ok, let's keep things simple.

In theory, twenty zips from a 3.5' x 4' double-sided would make the overall yield forty.

Two and a half pounds isn't far from my estimation of three.

I think I'm finally on to something here..

Thanks for your input @Rahz !!!
Click to expand...
Won't work in a 3x3' tent, because that much bud will be thick and will take up the space in the middle, hurting light distribution.

Why not use single sided SCRoG panels around all 4 sides of the tent and build a COB fixture that lights them all?
 
Enigma

Enigma

Well-Known Member
Rahz said:
Just the Veros, possible to hit around 20 zips in DWC. Adding light below the canopy I hesitate to take a guess.
Click to expand...

EBs under the canopy running the length from top to bottom, or scattered, would be a huge advantage.
 
Enigma

Enigma

Well-Known Member
ttystikk said:
Won't work in a 3x3' tent, because that much bud will be thick and will take up the space in the middle, hurting light distribution.

Why not use single sided SCRoG panels around all 4 sides of the tent and build a COB fixture that lights them all?
Click to expand...

Lighting distance.

The angular radiation from the chips limit the usable footprint. Most COBs, I've seen, have an actual radiance of about 160° (10%) with a usable 120° (50%), under 120° things start becoming intense.

The harder you drive to meet the corners the center will get twice as much light causing possible damage.

With this design the plant would have about eight inches of lateral growth and all the way up to the ceiling.

Placing COBs in the center will quickly eat up all of your space.

Let's take half of the tent.

2'

We will remove 4.5" + 12" for absolute minimum lighting requirements which is 16.5".

That brings us to 7.5" from the side of the tent.

Now, because of angular radiance we will only be able to stretch the light so far to the sides. We would most likely end up using two rows of COBs per panel.

The design falls apart right there.
 
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ttystikk

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Enigma said:
Lighting distance.

The angular radiation from the chips limit the usable footprint. Most COBs, I've seen, have an actual radiance of about 160° (10%) with a usable 120° (50%), under 120° things start becoming intense.

The harder you drive to meet the corners the center will get twice as much light causing possible damage.

With this design the plant would have about eight inches of lateral growth and all the way up to the ceiling.

Placing COBs in the center will quickly eat up all of your space.

Let's take half of the tent.

2'

We will remove 4.5" + 12 for absolute minimum lighting requirements which is 16.5".

That brings us to 7.5" from the side of the tent.

Now, because of angular radiance we will only be able to stretch the ligh so far the the sides. We would most likely end up using two rows of COBs per panel.

The design falls apart right there.
Click to expand...
Except that you don't want to light the corners as much as the center in a vertical walls setup, because the plants interfere with each other.

Lighting 4 walls still gets you almost twice the trellis area as a double sided VSCRoG diagonally in the middle.
 
Enigma

Enigma

Well-Known Member
ttystikk said:
Except that you don't want to light the corners as much as the center in a vertical walls setup, because the plants interfere with each other.

Lighting 4 walls still gets you almost twice the trellis area as a double sided VSCRoG diagonally in the middle.
Click to expand...

This is true.

Getting the light in there is the problem.

Now, if we used hexagonal or octagonal shape in the middle with EBs it would be very possible and very costly.

Keep in mind the enclosure.

The walls and ceiling are reflectors.

This gives us a usable foot-print of about 3.5' at 12". Any light that doesn't make it in the 120° will be reflected and immediately returned to the canopy.

You have a 90° reflector behind the light engine.

:leaf:
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Enigma said:
This is true.

Getting the light in there is the problem.

Now, if we used hexagonal or octagonal shape in the middle with EBs it would be very possible and very costly.

Keep in mind the enclosure.

The walls and ceiling are reflectors.

This gives us a usable foot-print of about 3.5' at 12". Any light that doesn't make it in the 120° will be reflected and immediately returned to the canopy.

You have a 90° reflector behind the light engine.

:leaf:
Click to expand...
No need for reflectors in a tent with reflective walls.

I think this gets to be a clusterfuck in a 3x3 but would work well in a 4x4, as this would allow for plant thickness on the panels.

Another way to deal with COB light pattern would be to actually aim them at the corners. This would give more even light distribution.
 
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