Led Panel Tech:" Cabriolet " or no ?
- Thread starter stardustsailor
- Start date
stardustsailor
Well-Known Member
For dear Guod ..
[video=youtube;bM6z9YzAT1Q]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bM6z9YzAT1Q[/video]
[video=youtube;bM6z9YzAT1Q]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bM6z9YzAT1Q[/video]
stardustsailor
Well-Known Member
The "turnable" disc ,massive ....
The motor part ,usually placed away/apart from "turnable" disk ....
Awkward & Sensitive ..
In order to minimise vibrations ,that might disturb the needle ,from " tracing" the bumps in vinyl ....
And impact the music reproduction ..
Strive it ,far from "accurate " ....
....
.....
...
...
...
....
.....
Well ....
High End ,led grow panels ,do not differ in plenty of " basic principles " of balancing various " compromises "..
Care about the led protection ,when it comes versus to efficiency ?
Nope ...
Not ,in a High-End product ...
Owner of such has to "know " how to "use/operate " his equipment ,under ( oftenly )strict "regulations"...
Like for example : " Do not touch the damn leds with your sticky fingers ,FGS ! "
The motor part ,usually placed away/apart from "turnable" disk ....
Awkward & Sensitive ..
In order to minimise vibrations ,that might disturb the needle ,from " tracing" the bumps in vinyl ....
And impact the music reproduction ..
Strive it ,far from "accurate " ....
....
.....Well ....
High End ,led grow panels ,do not differ in plenty of " basic principles " of balancing various " compromises "..
Care about the led protection ,when it comes versus to efficiency ?
Nope ...
Not ,in a High-End product ...
Owner of such has to "know " how to "use/operate " his equipment ,under ( oftenly )strict "regulations"...
Like for example : " Do not touch the damn leds with your sticky fingers ,FGS ! "
stardustsailor
Well-Known Member
So ...
If corrosion -resistant leds used ,in a high-end led grow panel ..
Some sort of mechanical protection ,has to be used ...
A reflector ?
Yeap,that's a nice idea ....Although difficult to obtain for various custom designs of mcpcbs ....
Some sort of " feet " / " mushrooms-bumps " / "frame " ?
Simple designs ,but rather of "basic safety degree / minimal protection level " ..
In order not to sacrifice any efficiency ,"exposed leds " designs do need really special care ,while handling and using/operating ...
Simply ,one can't have it all ....
Often "perfectionism " is like hunting the reflection ( idol ) of the Moon,night,at sea....
It's dark everywhere around & you don't know where you'll end up to ...
Plus that , you'll never be able to "catch up" with the reflection of moon ....
But ,it 's worth trying ..
And never giving up ....
Evolution ,works that way ....
More or less .....
[video=youtube;-n-WCvfroZI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-n-WCvfroZI[/video]
If corrosion -resistant leds used ,in a high-end led grow panel ..
Some sort of mechanical protection ,has to be used ...
A reflector ?
Yeap,that's a nice idea ....Although difficult to obtain for various custom designs of mcpcbs ....
Some sort of " feet " / " mushrooms-bumps " / "frame " ?
Simple designs ,but rather of "basic safety degree / minimal protection level " ..
In order not to sacrifice any efficiency ,"exposed leds " designs do need really special care ,while handling and using/operating ...
Simply ,one can't have it all ....
Often "perfectionism " is like hunting the reflection ( idol ) of the Moon,night,at sea....
It's dark everywhere around & you don't know where you'll end up to ...
Plus that , you'll never be able to "catch up" with the reflection of moon ....
But ,it 's worth trying ..
And never giving up ....
Evolution ,works that way ....
More or less .....
[video=youtube;-n-WCvfroZI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-n-WCvfroZI[/video]
stardustsailor
Well-Known Member
Critical Angle calculator :
( For Protective Screen Designs ,Remote Phosphor,Lens ,etc )
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/phyopt/totint.html
More about Refraction :
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/geoopt/refr.html#c2
Normal Reflection Coefficient (calculate Fresnel losses ) :
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/phyopt/reflco.html#c1
And for external/internal reflection-transmission :
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/phyopt/reflex.html#c1
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/phyopt/reflin.html#c1
( For Protective Screen Designs ,Remote Phosphor,Lens ,etc )
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/phyopt/totint.html
More about Refraction :
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/geoopt/refr.html#c2
Normal Reflection Coefficient (calculate Fresnel losses ) :
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/phyopt/reflco.html#c1
And for external/internal reflection-transmission :
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/phyopt/reflex.html#c1
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/phyopt/reflin.html#c1
PetFlora
Well-Known Member
That's simply staggered leds. IMHO, a huge oversight by most led manufacturers.
When you have a 5 x 5 row/column of leds, they form a basic 6 pointed Merkaba shape
I doubt SDS's cone art is anywhere close to accurate as it depicts the blending of colors.
stardustsailor
Well-Known Member
Many had serious doubts about many stuff I've been posting ...
Like wide angle leds ..
White leds ...
Cheapo Asian leds ...
Green light ...
Etc ....
As a matter of fact ,though ....
It is enough accurate simulation ...
Using a ray tracing software ,for studying the 80° cones ,would not have given any different outcome ....
Except more detailed ,than this .....
As for blending .....
Since leds are so closely packed together ....
"Merkaba " arranging is not so important any more ...
Anyhow ,for sure it's not "the chicken with the golden eggs " ,regarding mixing / blending of light ...
And ,once more .....
"Sacrifice " the right things ,for the "gains" in others ...
That is a key "element" in led grow panel designing ....
And while "merkaba" works great with Star shaped hexagonal mcpcbs ....
For custom designed ,is a pain in the @$$ ,to design ....
Tracing becomes a quiz game ..
Heat is unevenly distributed ...
Designing becomes a brain-F@ck .....
No ,thanx ....
Already ,mixing of light ,is close to ideal / perfect ....
12 leds packed in a surface of 55 x 45 mm ..( Almost the same surface of 2-3 star mcpcbs ...)
Maximum distance of a pair of leds is ~ 50 mm ,on the custom made mcpcbs ...
Closest is ~ 10 mm ...
Who needs a Merkaba arranging,here and for what reason ?
The losses are way greater than the gains ,of such arrangement ,at this particular case ....
So ....
Pet ,be sure ,that I know pretty well what I'm doing ....
And I dislike inaccurate measures / calculations ,when they are of great importance ...
But I really do like ,people doubting me ...
When I'm proven to be right ....
Oh ..... My Ego ,then grows big ...Ain't so ?
Albert ,I do Agree ...
I do ,also have doubts ,about the universe being infinite ....
Like wide angle leds ..
White leds ...
Cheapo Asian leds ...
Green light ...
Etc ....
As a matter of fact ,though ....
It is enough accurate simulation ...
Using a ray tracing software ,for studying the 80° cones ,would not have given any different outcome ....
Except more detailed ,than this .....
As for blending .....
Since leds are so closely packed together ....
"Merkaba " arranging is not so important any more ...
Anyhow ,for sure it's not "the chicken with the golden eggs " ,regarding mixing / blending of light ...
And ,once more .....
"Sacrifice " the right things ,for the "gains" in others ...
That is a key "element" in led grow panel designing ....
And while "merkaba" works great with Star shaped hexagonal mcpcbs ....
For custom designed ,is a pain in the @$$ ,to design ....
Tracing becomes a quiz game ..
Heat is unevenly distributed ...
Designing becomes a brain-F@ck .....
No ,thanx ....
Already ,mixing of light ,is close to ideal / perfect ....
12 leds packed in a surface of 55 x 45 mm ..( Almost the same surface of 2-3 star mcpcbs ...)
Maximum distance of a pair of leds is ~ 50 mm ,on the custom made mcpcbs ...
Closest is ~ 10 mm ...
Who needs a Merkaba arranging,here and for what reason ?
The losses are way greater than the gains ,of such arrangement ,at this particular case ....
So ....
Pet ,be sure ,that I know pretty well what I'm doing ....
And I dislike inaccurate measures / calculations ,when they are of great importance ...
But I really do like ,people doubting me ...
When I'm proven to be right ....
Oh ..... My Ego ,then grows big ...Ain't so ?
Albert ,I do Agree ...
I do ,also have doubts ,about the universe being infinite ....
stardustsailor
Well-Known Member
IF I was using other type of leds ,more far "spaced " in the mcpcb ..
Then yes,indeed ,merkaba ,would have had made a difference .....
Still ,leds are not "randomly " placed ...
They do follow a certain pattern ,which takes into account other phenomena ,also important ,to achieve good light blending ....
Like dispersion of shorter wls ...
Then yes,indeed ,merkaba ,would have had made a difference .....
Still ,leds are not "randomly " placed ...
They do follow a certain pattern ,which takes into account other phenomena ,also important ,to achieve good light blending ....
Like dispersion of shorter wls ...
stardustsailor
Well-Known Member
I'm telling you ..
More difficult than most quiz games out there ...
I really hope ,that you 'll find out ,your "way" there Guod ....
(OMG !!! Total ..brainkiller ....Ohhhhowhoaaaa .....Scary .... )
PS :
You really think ,that is necessary so much blue "horsepower " there ?
Ok ...You know better your "things " ...
More difficult than most quiz games out there ...
I really hope ,that you 'll find out ,your "way" there Guod ....
(OMG !!! Total ..brainkiller ....Ohhhhowhoaaaa .....Scary .... )
PS :
You really think ,that is necessary so much blue "horsepower " there ?
Ok ...You know better your "things " ...
stardustsailor
Well-Known Member
Now you seriously got me thinking ....
Blue light has Yellow/Amber light as complementary colour ,in order to make white light ...
Red light has Cyan light as complementary colour ,in order to reproduce white light ....
So , you are producing white light ,in fact ....
In two 'different' ways actually .....
Having both Red & Blue ...
And their complementaries ....
Cyan +Yellow /Amber = Green ....
You kept the two main PS peaks at high efficiency ( Blue & Red Diodes ) ...
And you " broke " the remaining "green light" part ,
into two separate peaks ,to make a smoother spectral transition ...
Cyan and Yellow/Amber ....
If those two later type of leds ,are of same or higher efficiency than phoshor white ones ....
Then ,yes ,the whole concept ,starts to be rather interesting ..
Clever thinking ...
Congrats ,Guod ! ...
Excellent idea !
Might prove a ground-shaking suprise ....
Blue light has Yellow/Amber light as complementary colour ,in order to make white light ...
Red light has Cyan light as complementary colour ,in order to reproduce white light ....
So , you are producing white light ,in fact ....
In two 'different' ways actually .....
Having both Red & Blue ...
And their complementaries ....
Cyan +Yellow /Amber = Green ....
You kept the two main PS peaks at high efficiency ( Blue & Red Diodes ) ...
And you " broke " the remaining "green light" part ,
into two separate peaks ,to make a smoother spectral transition ...
Cyan and Yellow/Amber ....
If those two later type of leds ,are of same or higher efficiency than phoshor white ones ....
Then ,yes ,the whole concept ,starts to be rather interesting ..
Clever thinking ...
Congrats ,Guod ! ...
Excellent idea !
Might prove a ground-shaking suprise ....
stardustsailor
Well-Known Member
Where did you find that absolute power distribution Graph ?
Nice ....
( So OSlon WW CRI 95 has almost 4x times the power in red 620-640 nm ,than blue peak at ~445 nm ...
Hmmm... )
Nice ....
( So OSlon WW CRI 95 has almost 4x times the power in red 620-640 nm ,than blue peak at ~445 nm ...
Hmmm... )
SnotBoogie
Well-Known Member
I would also love to know where that graph came from... 
guod
Well-Known Member
osram Optical Simulation
http://catalog.osram-os.com/applica...Oid=0000000200034c80025d0023&act=showBookmark
...plus some math and Excel-skills
https://www.rollitup.org/led-other-lighting/549547-yet-another-diy-panel-2.html#post7788722
I showed up a some tools last year, but there wasn't much interest in this things.
http://catalog.osram-os.com/applica...Oid=0000000200034c80025d0023&act=showBookmark
...plus some math and Excel-skills
https://www.rollitup.org/led-other-lighting/549547-yet-another-diy-panel-2.html#post7788722
I showed up a some tools last year, but there wasn't much interest in this things.
PetFlora
Well-Known Member
I agree that multichips, or tight spacing, trumps the need for Merkaba shape. All thanks to higher efficiency chips. I was merely correcting a misconception where Guod thought staggered = Merkaba.
I think he also made my case (post #30 above) for where various diodes need to be placed in order to blend colors harmonically
I think he also made my case (post #30 above) for where various diodes need to be placed in order to blend colors harmonically
stardustsailor
Well-Known Member
stardustsailor
Well-Known Member
RainerRocks
Active Member
Wouldn't that depend upon the lens angle ?
If using a wider lens having them closely packed together wouldn't be that crucial in blending the spectrum....now if using a more narrow lens having them laid out closely would be more crucial to achieve a blended spectrum.
And yes laying out and wiring in a merkaba is a pain and I didn't even solder..soldering would be a biatch .
Ya really have to draw a map or several out first to see how the wires will run and make adjustments so as not to have too many wires clumped together and to reduce as much criss crossing as possible. It's not hard to do just a pain and doing one series at a time makes it a little easier when following your map layout. Also be prepared to have many different lengths of wire !
But I did do a merkaba ( solderless and still was a pain ) and spaced them further apart (Ditched the lenses ..might use them on next 2 panels) ) and tried my best to balance out the colors so to blend the spectrum the best.
The height of panel to plant also has to be taken in to account because the balance of mixing the light spectrum will change as the plant grows. So height a djustments will be needed during grow but not hard to do.
Having dimming options really helps also with getting the light balance needed during different times of growth. Plus a timer is great for different times of the day just makes it even more sweeter !
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