LED fixtures with added IR?

tstick

tstick

Well-Known Member
cdgmoney250 said:
My disagreement includes yield, but like I mentioned previously also includes cannabinoid content. The cool thing about this plant is that the cannabinoid content can change drastically with the exact same cultivar despite yield improving or declining. I believe there are environmental factors including fertilization that can have large effects on total yield in a grow, but I also feel that the cannibinoid/secondary metabolite count and quanta (this includes terpenes) is the real report card in terms of the plant’s overall health and its ability to express its full genetic potential.
Believe me, I’m more about quality than weight myself. I believe they can also go hand in hand. And I do believe that the more broad/natural the spectrum of light, the easier it is for the plants to achieve that expression. I’m just not sure adding individual nanometer LED chips to an already subpar spectrum is the *best way to do it.
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My understanding is that many LED lights now use some red chips not only to amplify the red portion of the spectrum, but also because doing so somehow jacks up the efficiency rating of the light...which still seems to be a major selling point. So, whether or not added red chips do anything beneficial in terms of photosynthetic response, they probably don't hurt anything, either. I think the most recent "customizable" spectrum that some fixtures are offering, is just a toy to play with by growers who want to try and find a secret sauce that no one else has...which is just a gimmick, of course.
At first, I was wondering if it was the COLOR of the HPS lights that caused plants to become more fragrant. But, now, after doing a run using the HPS bulb, I don't think it's the just the visible color. I think it has to do more with the heat that is radiated from the same source that the visible light is coming from. That's just a suspicion that I have concluded from my own observation and analysis. It's almost like when you put a cat in a room with three lights: a fluorescent, an LED and an HID. All can be the same wattage. Just wait a few minutes and then come back in the room. Guess which light the cat will be sitting under. It will be the HID. Why? It's warmer! Why is it warmer? Because it radiates a lot of IR heat than do the other types of light. Are plants and cats the same? Of course not...It was just a joke....or was it? ;)

I'm now trying to figure out a good way to integrate the best qualities of LEDs along with HPS. I think it might be best to try and enhance the very efficient LED with the directional warmth and potential ripening of the volatile esters and terpenes that I associate with the HPS light bulb. That way, I'll get all the KNOWN and studied results from the LED....and maybe some voodoo from the HPS
 
grotbags

grotbags

Well-Known Member
cdgmoney250 said:
I’d say until somebody does a study on morphological changes or differences in total flower weight/cannabinoid content of an LED spectrum with & without IR, or at least tries an anecdotal experiment and provides the documentation of their results along the way, I’m calling bro science on this claim.
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id like to see hps vs hps but with one of the hps lights with an IR filter added to block all light above say 750nm, with leaf surface temps matched. that woud start to answer a few question i would think.

cdgmoney250 said:
From what I can gather from the chatter I’ve seen from IG and forums lately, there is a big discussion happening (again) about LED fixtures and the spectrum they create being deficient in Far Red, Near-Infrared and Infrared (as well as UV, but that’s another topic). While this is true about common spectrum recipes lacking a bit in the Deep Red/FR wavelengths, some of the claims I’ve seen from old HID heads and most LED companies is that adding FR is a “game changer” and that “you don’t have an HPS replacement without 730nm in your spectrum”.
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the chatter is correct, there is no doubt that the "standard" led growlight is lacking in the deep red/far red end of the spectrum. it doesnt have to be lacking but while light companys chase efficiency and cost over spectrum this will not change.

i say more fool the cultivators who believed the nonsense led light manufactuers spouted about full spectrum white diodes they use, or the old its a veg and flower light in one because they use a mix of 3000k and 5000k chips, lol.

as for the current trend of led light companys adding 730nm far red diodes to their already poor spectrum they might aswell not bother, they dont add enough to make a difference (because efficiency), even if they did it wouldnt be a "gamechanger" when the rest of the spectrum isnt ideal.

cdgmoney250 said:
B) Commercial Grows who switched from HPS to LED, but don’t understand the environmental requirement differences between the two
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i have doubt this is a significant factor but if you swap a room full of hps out to a 4000k-5000k dominant led spectrum your going to notice a difference that no amount of heat is going to change.

cdgmoney250 said:
C) LED grow light companies who somehow have these “HID Replacement” light recipes by adding 660nm & 730nm diodes to a generic spectrum formula copied by most in the industry, with tons of “in-house” testing that proves why their recipe is better than others, but won’t release any of that data because it’s BS… I mean proprietary.
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:clap:

cdgmoney250 said:
I believe in trying to optimize the spectrum that plants grow under. I’m just leary of unfounded claims. Doesn’t anybody remember Hortlilux releasing the 600W “Red” Cermanic HPS that was uber heavy on the Red/DR/FR/IR? I know one commercial grow who did one round under those bulbs and then threw them away because the plants grew super messed up. Although the light had the “ultra important wavelengths” the spectrum wasn’t balanced properly for the ppfd the plants were receiving.

rant over bongsmilie
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in what way were the plants messed up?, bleaching, super loose and airy buds a lot of bud elongation?.
 
cdgmoney250

cdgmoney250

Well-Known Member
grotbags said:
in what way were the plants messed up?, bleaching, super loose and airy buds a lot of bud elongation?.
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Exactly. Not bleached at all, but larger than usual super loose airy fluffy buds, with next to zero trichome development. I might be able to find the picture, it was in a text message thread from like 7 years ago. Tall lanky stretchy plants on a known cultivar that did not do that under the 315s they were using. I want to say the strain was G13
 
PJ Diaz

PJ Diaz

Well-Known Member
I've ran multiple types of HID lamps as well as multiple types of LED throughout the years, and in my experience the best results are from a combination of square wave CMH and full spectrum LED with added red chips. There's no doubt that plants want and use some form of IR for their metabolic processes.
 
grotbags

grotbags

Well-Known Member
cdgmoney250 said:
Exactly. Not bleached at all, but larger than usual super loose airy fluffy buds, with next to zero trichome development. I might be able to find the picture, it was in a text message thread from like 7 years ago. Tall lanky stretchy plants on a known cultivar that did not do that under the 315s they were using. I want to say the strain was G13
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yer i have seen the same with a very heavy red and far red led crop, that and a bit of a calcium defficiency caused a plant that normally wants to golf ball to go crazy, huge buds but loose and airy and about two times the normal stretch. you honestly wouldnt have believed they were the same plant.
 
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cdgmoney250

cdgmoney250

Well-Known Member
OneHitDone said:
Bingo, nobody argues that the total amount of Infrared emitted by an hid lamp isn't excessive. But it should be present in sufficient quality to properly heat leaf surfaces.
The technology is there in led - its just a monkey see monkey do - peel the $$ from unknowing weed growers paradise still. Some led company will come along with a light that has all the proper wavelengths and the control / programmability to properly dial in what each plant species would flourish under and vary it by time of day.
Non of this "Raise your ambient temps to achieve transpiration bro" bullshit.
:peace:
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I pretty much agree with just about everything you said, but my question still stands about what are the actual benefits of IR? And I totally understand the idea of raising the leaf temperatures to an optimum level to maximize photosynthesis. But, in my experience, the leaf temp is anywhere between 3 & 8 degrees F warmer under HPS than the standard LED light recipe most are using and under similar environmental conditions and ppfd. Airflow and HVAC are critical points and often times weak links in grows, which can drastically effect leaf temps as well.
It has also been my experience that, at least in sealed environments, that adjusting ambient temp can fairly easily correct the difference in leaf temperatures you would normally see, i.e. “Raise your ambient temps and adjust your VPD accordingly to achieve transpiration, bro”, which is not BS, it’s just another factor that has to be adjusted to optimize growth under different forms of lighting.

But yeah having different channels to tune the spectrum to the time of day/year with, IMO full spectrum whites of different k temps, would be hella dope especially integrated into a controller.
 
grotbags

grotbags

Well-Known Member
cdgmoney250 said:
I pretty much agree with just about everything you said, but my question still stands about what are the actual benefits of IR? And I totally understand the idea of raising the leaf temperatures to an optimum level to maximize photosynthesis. But, in my experience, the leaf temp is anywhere between 3 & 8 degrees F warmer under HPS than the standard LED light recipe most are using and under similar environmental conditions and ppfd. Airflow and HVAC are critical points and often times weak links in grows, which can drastically effect leaf temps as well.
It has also been my experience that, at least in sealed environments, that adjusting ambient temp can fairly easily correct the difference in leaf temperatures you would normally see, i.e. “Raise your ambient temps and adjust your VPD accordingly to achieve transpiration, bro”, which is not BS, it’s just another factor that has to be adjusted to optimize growth under different forms of lighting.

But yeah having different channels to tune the spectrum to the time of day/year with, IMO full spectrum whites of different k temps, would be hella dope especially integrated into a controller.
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yep, if leaf surface temps are equal whether that temp is from IR or convection it shouldnt matter.
IR warms plant material by directly vibrating the molecules in the plant not the air inbetween the plants.
convection warms plant material by vibrating the molecules in the plant but it does it indirectly as it has to warm the air first.
plants cant see IR its not a photon its an EM wave.
 
cdgmoney250

cdgmoney250

Well-Known Member
tstick said:
My understanding is that many LED lights now use some red chips not only to amplify the red portion of the spectrum, but also because doing so somehow jacks up the efficiency rating of the light...which still seems to be a major selling point. So, whether or not added red chips do anything beneficial in terms of photosynthetic response, they probably don't hurt anything, either. I think the most recent "customizable" spectrum that some fixtures are offering, is just a toy to play with by growers who want to try and find a secret sauce that no one else has...which is just a gimmick, of course.
At first, I was wondering if it was the COLOR of the HPS lights that caused plants to become more fragrant. But, now, after doing a run using the HPS bulb, I don't think it's the just the visible color. I think it has to do more with the heat that is radiated from the same source that the visible light is coming from. That's just a suspicion that I have concluded from my own observation and analysis. It's almost like when you put a cat in a room with three lights: a fluorescent, an LED and an HID. All can be the same wattage. Just wait a few minutes and then come back in the room. Guess which light the cat will be sitting under. It will be the HID. Why? It's warmer! Why is it warmer? Because it radiates a lot of IR heat than do the other types of light. Are plants and cats the same? Of course not...It was just a joke....or was it? ;)

I'm now trying to figure out a good way to integrate the best qualities of LEDs along with HPS. I think it might be best to try and enhance the very efficient LED with the directional warmth and potential ripening of the volatile esters and terpenes that I associate with the HPS light bulb. That way, I'll get all the KNOWN and studied results from the LED....and maybe some voodoo from the HPS
Click to expand...
I’ve had great luck mixing spectrums of HID and LED. Plants chunk out and get funky. I wonder if terpene difference that some growers are reporting are from the other wavelengths outside the standard LED spectrums, that even at low irradiance levels, the plants still absorb them. My personal experience was terpenes, THC and yield went up from switching to LED, although the buds were the same size, LED was frostier and had more aroma/better buzz. That is just my own anecdotal experience.

I often wonder if a mixture of say Phillips 315 Elite or like a Hortilux Blue and Full Spectrum Whites would do for overall yield and quality, but my personal size limitations makes LED the only real option for me.
 
Grow Lights Australia

Grow Lights Australia

Well-Known Member
We've seen good results mixing LED and CMH. A few years ago @Prawn Connery designed the original High Light LED panels with two different spectra. One included UVA as a stand-alone LED fixture and the other was dubbed the "High Red" because it used a mix of 2700K CRI90 and CRI95 Nichia Optisolis LEDs to give CMH bulbs a red boost. The High Red was a transitional LED panel specifically designed to be mixed with CMH which already had enough blue and UVA in the spectrum.

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Later the same customer decided to mix his CMH with the High Light UV boards that had added 6500K Sunlike LEDs and got better yields but that was probably due to having dialled in his system better as we always thought the High Red/CMH combo would have the most yield potential. I don't know what the yield numbers were as it was a bit before my time but they looked good and the buds were dense. He later ditched the CMH and went with the new High Light 420 boards but I believe he still keeps the CMH for when it gets cold in winter.

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cdgmoney250

cdgmoney250

Well-Known Member
Grow Lights Australia said:
We've seen good results mixing LED and CMH. A few years ago @Prawn Connery designed the original High Light LED panels with two different spectra. One included UVA as a stand-alone LED fixture and the other was dubbed the "High Red" because it used a mix of 2700K CRI90 and CRI95 Nichia Optisolis LEDs to give CMH bulbs a red boost. The High Red was a transitional LED panel specifically designed to be mixed with CMH which already had enough blue and UVA in the spectrum.

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Later the same customer decided to mix his CMH with the High Light UV boards that had added 6500K Sunlike LEDs and got better yields but that was probably due to having dialled in his system better as we always thought the High Red/CMH combo would have the most yield potential. I don't know what the yield numbers were as it was a bit before my time but they looked good and the buds were dense. He later ditched the CMH and went with the new High Light 420 boards but I believe he still keeps the CMH for when it gets cold in winter.

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Did you happen to have the SPD available on that fixture?
 
Prawn Connery

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
I remember those grows as I helped set them up. 3000K CMH is a good spectrum but I always thought it could do with more red and especially more far red. The above grower was happy with the mix of CMH and High Red boards, but one of his friends was even happier because he liked it so much he eventually ended up with the High Red light! The original grower did some work for me and so I gave him a replacement UV LED to replace the High Red and he got even better results – although I think that had more to do with the overall grow than the lights.

Nice pix, BTW (you got those off me you bugger!).

I also found a spectograph that shows the massive IR spike in typical 3000K CMH lamps. It's been done to death now in the HPS thread lurking around here, but I do wonder if IR is needed in cases where grow-room temps are already optimal. As pointed out earlier, everything gives off IR, not just HIDs, so you have to wonder if it's really only beneficial in areas that are already too cold. Often I'm trying to take heat out of the grow room here in Australia, where low temps usually aren't an issue except right in the middle of winter (and even then, it rarely gets below 10C where I am).

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