LEC Sun System 315W CMH/Philips Elite Agro 930 - Virgin Flowering Run

DarthBlazeAnthony

Well-Known Member
Nothing to do with this thread but bud porn is never out of place ;) These are some shots from a JTR I just pulled into the dark from my pollen chucking tent. The JTR buds usually frost up well but this one was amazing, just smothered in frost :) This one had the following pollen painted on: JTR, Blueberry, and Ace of Spades, one branch each, the rest is some personal smoke and the seeded bud remains go into the oil/hash/edibles bin :bigjoint:

I was amazed by the yield/density this round, no fluff, same LED spot light I'd used a couple of times, threw in a mix of CFL's and LED bulbs to raise the heat and ended up yielding at least twice what I had in the previous 2 runs with the LED only.
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how many total watts are you drawing?
 

GroErr

Well-Known Member
It was the first seed I planted and was female. It is blue dream for sure and I have one in the veg room from seed as well. I did top it so I have so many bud sites. Maybe, 12 tops, I dunno. There are hardly any buds though since I switched it 12/12 3 weeks ago. I'm gonna have to bust out the 4x4 tent and really rock the shit out of my grow. I want to have at least 5 plants flowering at any time. Thanks for all your advice. Yep, in so cal. The temperatures likely played a huge role in why my plant is being weak. I hope she will start having buds next week. I'm sooo impatient!
Yeah, need some patience and maybe throw some more light at it if you can, another 4x4 tent will be awesome, you have a light for it yet? If not, one of these 315w Elite Agro setups would do well in there, not seeing any coverage issues in the 3x3, actually 36" x 39" now, all the bud sites are filling in well, some of the perimeter buds are the biggest.
 

GroErr

Well-Known Member
how many total watts are you drawing?
The CMH @120v are each 315w for the bulb + 65w or so overhead for the ballast and 120v converter, total 385w, they cover 3x3' well @20" above the canopy.
The breeding tent is a 200w (actual draw) 3000k LED spot light (COB's), plus another 70W between the CFL's/LED bulbs in a DIY fixture so 270w, that tent is a 2x2' and was pretty well wall-to-wall plants with 2x plants in there.
 

GroErr

Well-Known Member
hey, maybe we can do cree simulbuild? how much do you estimate a cree light setup that would cost to cover 4x4 area?
Would love to but my schedule sucks right now, been busy for the last couple of months, and looks like it's not slowing down, as always, work getting in the way of my grows ;)
Those cree 3070's would be awesome, definitely recommend if you want some great pulls/gpw. There's folks pulling well over 1 gpw with these 3070's in here.
If I were trying to cover off a 4x4, I'd build about 400w (actual draw), or about 25w/sq. ft. it's not cheap, you'll probably run [email protected]/watt depending on the design and what you run them at (700 or 1400ma). There are some great threads going in the LED section and fantastic resources in the DIY Cree threads, if you started a thread to build something that's where I'd post it, you'll get lots of help and options/design tips in there.
 

DarthBlazeAnthony

Well-Known Member
Can you kinda quickly break down the costs of the 5 most expensive items? $1200 seems like an awfully lot for a light setup. I know I can cover the area with 500w LED's but I definitely defer to you. Have you seen your grow! lol
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GroErr

Well-Known Member
Here are some of the basics with rough prices in USD:

Passively cooled, you need huge heat sinks, higher cost, less maintenance/potential failures/no power draw or electrical for fans, but higher heat vs. actively cooled:

@1400 ma (~50W actual output each COB) you'd need:
8x Cree CXA-3070 3000k COB's @~$40/each (Digi-Key) = ~$320 (AB bins best but hard to find, Z2/Z4 bins readily available)
8x Meanwell-LPC-60-1400 @~$25/each (E-Bay, many sources) = ~$200
8x Ideal (#50-2234C) COB holders for CXA-3070 series (Newark) @~$2.50/each = ~$20
4x large heat sinks like 10 x 24" (2 COB's per heat sink): ~$80/each = $320 (ouch)

You'll also need some thermal paste, 20 gage wiring for the COB's, some self-tapping screws or tools to tap the holes for the holders. Some aluminum sheet or similar to build a bracket/holder for the power supplies, say $100 total.
So above, + shipping, depending where you are (mine was like $200 shipping for the various components as I'm in Canada and we don't have good suppliers here for this stuff), you'd probably pay $100 total
So roughly you're @ $1,060 for passively cooled.

Actively cooled, smaller/cheaper heat sinks, but you then need CPU coolers and a way to power them. This is the most common design. Just guesstimating prices as I did have a look a long time ago but never searched in detail.
When I looked at this and did some rough pricing of components, I went for the passively cooled because it a) should be fine with maybe an additional good quality circulation fan blowing on the heat sinks. b) Less risk of failure if the CPU fans blow up on me c) I can handle extra heat being most of my growing is in the basement, usually needing heat through the winter d) costs pretty well wash out in either design, larger heat sinks are more expensive but you need additional components with active cooling.

8x (1 for each COB) smaller heat sinks (E-Bay? didn't go this route so no references) @~$15/each = ~$120
8x (1 for each COB) CPU fans, get good one's if they fail your COB's could burn out @~$15/each = ~$120
8x (1 for each COB) 12v drivers/power supplies for the CPU fans @~$15/each = $120
(never looked at this in detail, I'm sure there are larger drivers/power supplies that can handle multiple fans, wiring them and placement could be a challenge though)

As you can see, the difference is really a wash between passive/active cooling, one of the first decisions you'd have to make when looking at this. I'm going out on a bit of a limb using passive but I figure if they heat up too much I can adjust the design later or swap drivers and run them lower like 900 ma or something.

For me they're going to be 4x 50W "panels" using 7 x 16" passive heat sink for each COB, and 1x 100W panel using a 10 x 23" heat sink for 2x COB's (23" fits in any cabinet/room I have). This is why I went CMH and put the COB project on hold for a bit, I had no time to build them and needed a good flowering light right away, had plants ready to flower at the time. Even the high end, ready to grow out of the box LEC 315W Sun Systems are $450-$490 or $1.43 - $1.56/watt, with similar flowering capabilities, same benefits like low heat, high efficiency etc.

Cheers...
 
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GroErr

Well-Known Member
Can you kinda quickly break down the costs of the 5 most expensive items? $1200 seems like an awfully lot for a light setup. I know I can cover the area with 500w LED's but I definitely defer to you. Have you seen your grow! lol
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See breakdown for COB options above, the only thing I'd recommend after a year of frustration with cheap/no-name LED's would be to go the Cree COB's, CMH Elite Agro, or if you want LED's and don't want to build them go Area 51 off the shelf LED's (3x RW150's would rock a 4x4 and be slightly more than a DIY COB build). You can grow buds with cheap LED's but you won't get near the size/weight/yields you're seeing here or any of the DIY/A51 grows on this site, that I can pretty well guarantee from experience.
 

aphrodisia

Well-Known Member
Nice, imo mixing spectrums/colours, specifically with white light may have some merits for flowering MJ, I think it's finding the right mix. A recent side effect of adding some 2700k + 4000k bulbs in my breeding tent for additional heat, resulted in probably double the yield (haven't pulled these yet) over anything I've run with a low-end 3000k COB light I use in that tent (which produced double than when I was running those LG LED multi-spectrum 3w panels). I've never been concerned with yield in there as my aim is to get seeds. But after seeing what just happened by mistake, I'm going to play around with that and see if I can replicate it.

Pic below is the breeding tent with one JTR and one PPP (fems), selectively pollinated branches for a few crosses I want to try. 1x 200W LED COB Spot Light, plus the DIY panel you see top/centre angled down on the tops, the DIY panel is running 3x 13w 2700k CFL's, 3x 10w 4000k LED COB bulbs, 70w total, so 270W in a 2x2x4'. The plants were much bigger than I usually run, extras from my last run, so decided to make some seeds, and use everything left over for oil/hash. They stretched quite a bit so I ended up running the 200w light about 10" above the canopy, and the CFL/LED bulb panel almost touching the buds. I was expecting about 2 oz dry as I usually get fluffy buds in there. I'm now looking to pull about 4-5 oz, the buds are feeling solid, branches are sagging, bonus ;) I'm going to have a lot of oil/hash and of course, the original intent, seeds :bigjoint:
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That looks the dogs bollocks mate.
 

GroErr

Well-Known Member
That looks the dogs bollocks mate.
Lol, thanks aphro, had to look up the meaning of that saying, hadn't heard it, wasn't sure if you liked it or you were saying it looked like dog shit - lmao Just posted the final pics of the JTR on page 12, probably the frostiest JTR I've grown yet :)
 

aphrodisia

Well-Known Member
Lol, thanks aphro, had to look up the meaning of that saying, hadn't heard it, wasn't sure if you liked it or you were saying it looked like dog shit - lmao Just posted the final pics of the JTR on page 12, probably the frostiest JTR I've grown yet :)

Haha, it did belatedly cross my mind after I posted that you might not understand the meaning :grin: of the saying. Its common English usage here. I was well impressed with how dense looking the buds were and for just two plants they filled out the whole space. How tall did you veg them for before switching over ?
 

GroErr

Well-Known Member
Haha, it did belatedly cross my mind after I posted that you might not understand the meaning :grin: of the saying. Its common English usage here. I was well impressed with how dense looking the buds were and for just two plants they filled out the whole space. How tall did you veg them for before switching over ?
lol, you guys have some classic sayings ;) They were relatively short but wide going into 12/12, they were tied down to about 12"-14", I had LST'd and super cropped. I was thinking I was going to flower them out but ended up with too many plants so threw these two into the tent for some crossing. After they stretched with all the training they filled the tent wall-wall. The PPP is in there until the weekend, the main cola is so big/heavy if it wasn't leaning against the side of the tent it would fall over, that main cola wasn't pollinated :bigjoint:
Breeding-PPP-Day60-1.JPG Breeding-PPP-Day60-2.JPG
 

GroErr

Well-Known Member
Apologies for the book but thought I'd post some random thoughts related to lighting/heat as I'm more than 1/2 way through this run, and before I forget them sampling several harvests I'm pulling. Outdoor is ready to hang/dry, have a pregnant JTR drying now, Sunday I pull a pregnant PPP, and I'm 2 1/2 weeks out from pulling the JTR in the 3x3', wholly weed batman! The reserves (and payback for all the money I've spent lately!) are stacking up nicely :bigjoint:

All comments/thoughts/experiences are more than welcome...

First off, these CMH rigs are awesome, fast flowering, low heat (running 2 of the LEC Sun Systems now in a 4'x9.5'x7'H room), low power consumption. Not much bad to say. There are a couple of things that need adjustments to get the best out of them though. I'm not seeing any reason to go smaller than 3x3 for footprint, awesome coverage for 315w. Will be looking for an opportunity to get a 240v circuit in there in the next few months to gain even more efficiency. But I have no regrets on running the 120v units, if this is inefficient, bring it on!

a) Have to test (next run and the Blue Dream I'm running under the new LEC for a few days) moving the light up further, going to run them @22" for the Blue Dream and next 3x3 or so. The PPP strain is getting stressed from the intensity. The JTR's like it fine @20". It's a fine balance between height and final yield so I'm leaving the 3x3 (PPP/JTR) alone at 20" for now since I have a reference with both strains from the first run. Although PPP got the same light stress first round, it produced very well in the end and no bud burn, just the leaves.

b) Related to a) and both a benefit and problem with some strains. imo, part of the reason these lights do well is the intensity and heat directly below the lights or top of the canopy. They haven't increased the overall room temps, you can set a beer on top of the unit while doing maintenance and it won't get warm. But you can feel the heat directly above the canopy which is where some of the stress showing on PPP is coming from. At the same time, the intensity and heat on the top canopy I think helps with crazy fast bud growth and density (will explain why in point c). Some strains, like this PPP may not like it, whereas JTR is looking like a 3.5-4 oz plant and after almost 5 weeks has 1 or 2 leaves with some slight bleaching. Both are Sat-dom and ~70% sat genes.

c) Related to b) but not CMH specific. I unwittingly got a huge yield bump, and similar bump in density recently in my breeding tent. I did a couple of runs in that tent with the 3000k 200W LED COB spot light I picked up several months ago for this purpose. The LG LED's just weren't cutting it, fluff, not as many seeds as I could have gotten so I bought a $165 200W (4x 50W) COB light on Alibaba. The build quality was horrendous, wasn't expecting anything different really, yet the basic build/components fared much better than the LG LED's, pretty well doubled my yield instantly and got a bunch more/larger seeds. I took the thing apart as soon as I got it, secured the drivers (the original drivers had come loose during shipping, speaks to Chinese QA #@$!), removed the lens and fired it up in the tent. instantly got a huge yield and density increase over the LG LED's. But they were still just "OK", not bad for the price and better/cheaper than the LG LED's. Then this last round, I started the round mid-summer and in the basement. Since it was summer and the air conditioning was running, temps were low in the tent. Instead of trying to heat it, I grabbed my GP-1000 DIY panel I'd built last year for CFL's, stuck 6x 13w CFL's in it and added it on an angle towards the canopy. Had to remove 3 CFL's and replaced them with 10w LED bulbs to get the temps consistently at 80F. WOW is all I can say, I just pulled the JTR from that tent and considering the size of the plant I would have gotten maybe 3/4 oz dry with the LG LED's, 1 1/4 with the COB spot light. It'll pull at least 2 oz dry with this current setup. That's from a low/medium yield strain and relatively small plant. The density feels similar to what I'm seeing with the CMH. So back to my thoughts on WHY this happened. imo, the additional mixed spectrum from the 3000k COB's, 2700k CFL's and 4000k LED bulbs (all white light btw) will have been a factor, an interesting factor when designing COB builds? But also, the COB spot light throws some heat directly below the light and because these plants weren't originally going into the tent, they were much bigger, even tied down than I would normally run in this tent. The tops were ~8" - 10"below the light and the main colas on both plants were within 3-4" (until they bent down with the weight!). The last notable factor with this accidental rig is that the JTR plant I just pulled is the frostiest I've grown in about 4 rounds under different light setups :D

Based on this "accident", I'm going to try replicating it next round. I'll be running the COB light close to the top of the canopy 8-10" and will keep my DIY fixture with the CFL/LED bulbs angled towards the canopy. The run after I'll remove the CFL's and see what happens. Going to be difficult to prove out which factor is which without controls so I'll try to run a couple of known strains in there. Whichever factor or combination of factors did this idk, but the difference is crazy, worth investigating this further. One thing for sure is I have to get those DIY 3070 COB's built and mix them with the CMH, that I'm pretty sure will be the Nirvana of indoor lighting...
:hump:

Cheers :bigjoint:
 

cityworker415

Well-Known Member
@GroErr, I think you found out why my multi lamp tent kranks out rocks, IMO the real deal is a slight stress to her and keep her guessing what's coming next,the end can be near better make some trichrome production

Sent from my XT1060 using Rollitup mobile app
 

GroErr

Well-Known Member
Yeah I think that mix of spectrum/colour is the biggest factor. Other thing they've responded well to last couple of rounds is the switch from LED's in veg to CMH in flower. That mix and change of spectrum seems to be beneficial all around.
 

GroErr

Well-Known Member
3x3 girls @day 37 of 12/12, was sitting on a chair doing some checks/clean-up on the Blue Dream and thought this was a nice view, just an iPhone pic, love the white light and realistic colours in the room with 2 of these running, f'n bright in there but temps have come down to around 82F peak from 84F peaks since we're getting some cool nights here, nice, maybe I can run 3 in there? lol (nah, next addition will be 3070 LED's!). Even with 2 of these LEC's in there, should be able to add another 200-300W of LED's through the winter :bigjoint:
All-Day-37-Flower-1.JPG
 

coolj

Well-Known Member
i talked to ledsupply and their 12"heatsink with active cooling will support 100w, they also said that it will support the cobs, but you have to use thermal paste.
 
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