Leaf diagnosis help - possible lockout?

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Ekrad9

Member
Thanks to anyone taking the time to help me with this. To not waste time I’m just going to throw it out there.

I just moved to hydro a few months back, after growing soil for a long time, so I’m not a stranger to to the field. I will explain my situation as I know how frustrating it can be when broad questions are asked and when 99% of issues can be caused by many variables from one’s grow to another’s.

Current setup. DWC and an NFT- type system. Both systems cause what I’m going to show you — no difference from one system to the other. Using DYNO Gro - GROW (7-9-5) during veg, I see no issues, ever. Doesn’t matter how long they veg for, they don’t seem to show any signs Of what I’m going to show you. Ppms out of the tap are right around 130, only chorine (not an alternative or anything else) in my water. I let it sit out with air stones under my lights for 24 hours before I use it. Either way, I don’t believe that to play a factor. Immediately after they veg, they go in 500 ppm of DYNO-GRO - Bloom (3-12-6). Around week 3, they will start to show signs. I then give them Epsom salt (magnesium - sulfate). I don’t need calcium, as my water is already a little on the higher end so calmag is not needed, and it’s expensive. I have only recently started using hydroguard and I’m testing florakleen (which is supposed to break down the salts and clean the system.) It’s been about a week and they don’t seem to be getting any better. I have many ideas, but not sure any would be the right step to next next as time is bud at this point — and I fear this could slightly set them back.

This image is very late stage and one of the worst I could find. Many other top leaves have the issue, but the bottoms are completely fine. They don’t seem to be getting worse, unlike the top.

I have many theories but I need other’s opinions. time is valuable.
The later (larger leaf) is very far and few between. Only the oldest and largest look similar. A decent amount of the top have what’s in the lesser of the two. And the bottoms look great.
 

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Larry3215

Well-Known Member
How do your roots look? Ive seen similar leaf damage when the roots were damaged - rot, etc.

Also - you didnt mention PH?
 
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Ekrad9

Member
I Apologize. I have a ph controller and it’s set at 5.9-6.0. Roots look great. No root root rot whatsoever. As a matter of fact, the roots are larger than I’ve seen in almost every garden. I have 3 - 32 watt air pumps full throttle which is probably why the difference.
 
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Larry3215

Well-Known Member
You said you dont need calcium, but if you google calcium deficiency, the images that come up sure look similar to your leaves.

BUT - to my eye, they also look similar to several other deficiencies, so its hard to tell for sure.

The problem is, every single time someone asks "whats wrong with my plant" you will get 12 people answering the question - with 30 possibilities that cover every possible situation and nute element, etc etc.
 
rob333

rob333

Well-Known Member
Ekrad9 said:
Thanks to anyone taking the time to help me with this. To not waste time I’m just going to throw it out there.

I just moved to hydro a few months back, after growing soil for a long time, so I’m not a stranger to to the field. I will explain my situation as I know how frustrating it can be when broad questions are asked and when 99% of issues can be caused by many variables from one’s grow to another’s.

Current setup. DWC and an NFT- type system. Both systems cause what I’m going to show you — no difference from one system to the other. Using DYNO Gro - GROW (7-9-5) during veg, I see no issues, ever. Doesn’t matter how long they veg for, they don’t seem to show any signs Of what I’m going to show you. Ppms out of the tap are right around 130, only chorine (not an alternative or anything else) in my water. I let it sit out with air stones under my lights for 24 hours before I use it. Either way, I don’t believe that to play a factor. Immediately after they veg, they go in 500 ppm of DYNO-GRO - Bloom (3-12-6). Around week 3, they will start to show signs. I then give them Epsom salt (magnesium - sulfate). I don’t need calcium, as my water is already a little on the higher end so calmag is not needed, and it’s expensive. I have only recently started using hydroguard and I’m testing florakleen (which is supposed to break down the salts and clean the system.) It’s been about a week and they don’t seem to be getting any better. I have many ideas, but not sure any would be the right step to next next as time is bud at this point — and I fear this could slightly set them back.

This image is very late stage and one of the worst I could find. Many other top leaves have the issue, but the bottoms are completely fine. They don’t seem to be getting worse, unlike the top.

I have many theories but I need other’s opinions. time is valuable.
The later (larger leaf) is very far and few between. Only the oldest and largest look similar. A decent amount of the top have what’s in the lesser of the two. And the bottoms look great.
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what does ur roots look like and how does the rez smell ?
 
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Ekrad9

Member
Thanks for the replies, everyone.

@rob333 - Resevoir is clean. If not daily, at the very least, every other day I top my resevoir off and then bring it back to the PPMs i'm looking for. Then every 3 weeks I drain the system and start fresh. This wasn't always the case, though. For the longest time, I would just add water, then bring the ppms back up to where they needed to be. Thinking I was just getting a build up of trace nutrients, I began draining and refilling with new water/nutes, however, that doesn't seem to have helped at all, so i have eliminated that theory.

@Larry3215 - There are a lot of articles/forums on cal toxicity/deficiency and i don't believe that to be the issue. It looks more like a calcium toxicity, but you're right -- it does look very similar. Something I've found is that a calcium deficiency begins with the lower/newer growth first as well as show signs in the root area. What's confusing to me is that, like you, I believe it is a number of deficiencies. I do not believe it is due to a lack of available nutrients, but I could be wrong.

@fragileassassin - The PPMs used to move a decent amount, but since I've started draining and starting with fresh water, ppms and PH seem to be constant. If anything, the ppms begin to rise as my water begins to evaporate, which had me believing the trace nutrients were building up over time.
 
70's natureboy

70's natureboy

Well-Known Member
Well, to my eye they look crispy,like too much phosphorus. How many mls/gal are you using to get your 500 ppm's? We have a lot of Dynagro threads here and most don't seem to like the Dynagro Bloom. I have used it and get deficiencies every time. I now only use it as a remedy when my plants get too much N. Some use Foliage Pro all the way through but some nute senstive plants won't like it that way. I keep going back to Floranova because it is so easy and forgiving. I have never had to use hydrogaurd or florakleen because m res temps stay in check below 72 degrees.

I think you are over fertilizing somehow.
 
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Ekrad9

Member
@70's natureboy - Thanks for the reply. I'm following the instructions on the bottle. I believe it's right around 1-2 tbs per gallon. I begin with 1 tsp, and then climb towards the 2 tsp until the ppms are where they need to be. I'm using 40 gallon totes but only use about 20-25 gallons of water.

Up until the last week, during lights out, my temperatures were dropping down to 63F, and then creep up to about 71-73 with lights on. The reservoirs never move above 68-69 with lights on, as they are at floor level, but they were dropping down to about 60-61 with lights out. I have since added a heater controlled by a thermostat so the room doesn't really fluctuate at all.

The biggest issue is that I have too many variables at play here, which is why I decided to get some input from others. I really don't think i'm over-fertilizing per se, but perhaps there is more phosphorus than what is needed in what I am feeding them. Either way, I get what you're saying. I am going to order a small bottle of Floranova and use that in one of my systems during my next flower.
 
rob333

rob333

Well-Known Member
Ekrad9 said:
Thanks for the replies, everyone.

@rob333 - Resevoir is clean. If not daily, at the very least, every other day I top my resevoir off and then bring it back to the PPMs i'm looking for. Then every 3 weeks I drain the system and start fresh. This wasn't always the case, though. For the longest time, I would just add water, then bring the ppms back up to where they needed to be. Thinking I was just getting a build up of trace nutrients, I began draining and refilling with new water/nutes, however, that doesn't seem to have helped at all, so i have eliminated that theory.

@Larry3215 - There are a lot of articles/forums on cal toxicity/deficiency and i don't believe that to be the issue. It looks more like a calcium toxicity, but you're right -- it does look very similar. Something I've found is that a calcium deficiency begins with the lower/newer growth first as well as show signs in the root area. What's confusing to me is that, like you, I believe it is a number of deficiencies. I do not believe it is due to a lack of available nutrients, but I could be wrong.

@fragileassassin - The PPMs used to move a decent amount, but since I've started draining and starting with fresh water, ppms and PH seem to be constant. If anything, the ppms begin to rise as my water begins to evaporate, which had me believing the trace nutrients were building up over time.
Click to expand...
checked ya ph and stuff yea ?
 
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Ekrad9

Member
rob333 said:
checked ya ph and stuff yea ?
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Certainly. I know there has been a lot to go through, so I don't blame you for asking something I've already responded to. I'm just going to copy the section where I responded to someone else asking about that, but don't take that as me getting frustrated that you didn't go through it all - I wouldn't have either.

Ekrad9 said:
I Apologize. I have a ph controller and it’s set at 5.9-6.0. Roots look great. No root root rot whatsoever. As a matter of fact, the roots are larger than I’ve seen in almost every garden. I have 3 - 32 watt air pumps full throttle which is probably why the difference.
Click to expand...
 
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Ekrad9

Member
rkymtnman said:
DG Bloom sucks. Way too much P. I would use something different ASAP.
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Thanks, rkymtnman! That's the plan. Already ordered some floranova bloom. This is the worst time as I just bought another gallon of dyno bloom. Maybe i'll use around the 6th week of flower until it's gone, then start flushing around week 8. I appreciate your input.
 
rkymtnman

rkymtnman

Well-Known Member
Ekrad9 said:
Thanks, rkymtnman! That's the plan. Already ordered some floranova bloom. This is the worst time as I just bought another gallon of dyno bloom. Maybe i'll use around the 6th week of flower until it's gone, then start flushing around week 8. I appreciate your input.
Click to expand...
that's what my leaves looked like when i used it.
 
HolyAngel

HolyAngel

Well-Known Member
@Ekrad9
hmm well... My tap water is similar, 130-180ppm, mostly calcium carbonate in there with some mag according to water report, and I NEED calmag AND epsom salt(can't use a bunch of just calmag to fix my mag issues or I get N tox) or I have calcium and magnesium deficiencies. I am growing with QB's and H&G nutes tho. I do agree with some of the others on seeing calcium issues here, plus some other stuff too.

I also think jumping straight to 500ppm for flower seems a little drastic to me. The nute requirement of the plant increases slowly as she grows even through stretch and flower. It doesn't automagically need way more nutes just because you switched to 12/12, it'll increase definitely but not by 100+ ppm overnight. And anytime you defoliate its going to drop that nutrient requirement by a decent amount until she gets bigger again, especially if you lollipop you're gonna need like 200 less ppm's for at least a few days then you did before you lollipop'd. You need to be watching the ppm's daily and if they go up you're nute solution is too strong, you need to either replace some of the water, or top off the res, with plain ph'd water without nutes to bring it down lower than what you had it before it went up.

All that being said, I hated the dyna bloom and had issues every. single. time. I used it so that could be all your issues right there. I've had good luck with GH, and really been enjoying H&G lately, didn't like the canna aqua so much and yeah, been steering clear of Dyna stuff for the last 15 years.
 
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Ekrad9

Member
Understood, HolyAngel. Thank you for your feedback. Completely understood and I agree with you. The leaves that don't show signs are very green, so I don't think adding calmag would help, which is why I only added epsom salt. I do believe the root-cause is the nutrients. As I look around the web it appears this is a common theme with Dyno's Bloom. Upon further research, it appears Phosphorus toxicity takes 2-3 weeks before it starts showing signs. Which explains why I don't see signs until about week 3 of flower. I believe what i'm doing (as you and others have alluded to), is giving them too much phosphorus right out of the gate, which is causing a 2-3 week delay of toxicity, which in turn could be causing a lockout or perhaps just a toxicity.

I have ordered floranova and will monitor the progress with this next grow. I'm running a perpetual grow (new batch ever 3 weeks - 1 week clone, 2 weeks pre veg, 3 weeks veg, 9 weeks flower (gradually increasing each week to where I'm at week 1 - 3 500 PPM, week 4-6 900 PPM, and weeks 7-8 at 1100 PPM, then a flush the final week), harvesting every 3 weeks; It won't take long for me to see the results.

I do appreciate all the responses, so anyone feel free to chime in if you have anything valuable to add.

Ek
 
70's natureboy

70's natureboy

Well-Known Member
When I use DG I usually mix 1 tbs to 4-5 gallons, like 3-4 ml/gal. 1 tbs/gal would be pretty strong on my plants I'm guessing that would be at least 1.5 EC. You may be in salvage mode now, at least lay off the nutes for a couple weeks and see how they respond.
 
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