Lake County 'right to grow plants' proposed ballot measure should be state wide...

lol wow DK, you've been a busy boy for someone who not only doesn't seem to have a clue about me or my opinions, but clearly you are short on a basic understanding of law...
so first lets talk about the GMO thread you referenced, if you would have read it you would know that I actually do not support banning any plants whatsoever and that the thread was simply a conversation starter

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So then do you think Monsanto farmers should have the right to plant whatever GMO's they want regardless of impact?

secondly if you understood some basics about law then you would understand the conflict that would arise between you having your natural born right to grow plants and a monsanto patent on dna sequencing for example lol..

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I wasn't talking about product patents. I was talking about the planting of their seeds. Is it a human right for Monsanto farmers to plant whatever they want regardless of the societal impact?

thirdly if you had maintained your basic human right in this area, then there would be no prohibition on cannabis (for example) and look at all the trouble we could have avoided..

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You do not have the basic human right to do whatever you want regardless of impact. The reason cannabis was outlawed is because they lied about what that impact was. However societies absolutely have the right to limit behavior which has a societal impact. If they were honest about what that impact was it would have never been made illegal.

fourth (lol) now your saying that i'm trying to make my opinion into law (apparently your last resort argument)...so your calling a self evident natural right 'my opinion'?

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The ability to do whatever you want regardless of impact is not a self evident natural right.

when you forgo all our human rights and then arbitrarily make up and impose some number of plants we are all allowed to grow, i guess all your conclusions are based on science and fact right? lol...wrong...its about as arbitrary and opinionated as you can get with a law

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Again, not a right.

Sometimes you have to draw arbitrary lines in the sand because it's the only practical way to do it. You can't have 315 million separate laws about how much cannabis each individual can grow for their own personal use. At some point we have to make an arbitrary distinction between commercial and recreational that is the same for everyone.

I can't grow 100 acres of bud just because I feel like it and claim it's for personal use. No one can personally use that much bud. That is clearly a commercial use. You do not have the right to grow unregulated commercial crops.

you try and pass yourself off as rational and reasonable while its plain to see that its your brand of thinking (either oblivious to, or intentionally denying basic human rights) that got us all into this mess to begin with...

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No it's not. You're misidentifying the problem and placing your fundamental belief on a logical fallacy.

It is not a human right to do things that can have a negative effect on others. I have the right to swing my fist. I do not have the right to swing my fist into your face. My rights end where your rights begin. Growing plants can effect more people than just you. If it is just effecting you, then you should have the right to do it. However we do need arbitrary regulations to distinguish between what just effects you and what effects other people.

oh DK, you are aware that every time you write "the right to do whatever you want", you are again quoting yourself and thereby arguing with yourself right? (lol)
i mean you are aware that you are the only one here who has made such a statement right?
i think you are well aware of that fact because imo you do so intentionally for the reason i have already previously stated (because its bothersome to argue against things i have actually stated ), but why are you really doing it?
everyone knows that your rights end where someone else's begin yet you keep parroting such as if it has any real relevance to this discussion about exercising one's human rights and hurting no one...
seriously DK i really am wondering why you are so desperately attempting to mislead folks here and in general?
everyone knows that if folks had maintained their natural rights to grow plants, there would have been no prohibition on cannabis etc, anyone can lie about any plant DK, such is precisely (in part) why your human rights must always be maintained as a wall of protection against such trickery then and now
ps...you also clearly need to go back and read what i said about monsanto v this proposal...

Dan Kone said:

Again, not a right.

Sometimes you have to draw arbitrary lines in the sand because it's the only practical way to do it. You can't have 315 million separate laws about how much cannabis each individual can grow for their own personal use. At some point we have to make an arbitrary distinction between commercial and recreational that is the same for everyone.

I can't grow 100 acres of bud just because I feel like it and claim it's for personal use. No one can personally use that much bud. That is clearly a commercial use. You do not have the right to grow unregulated commercial crops.



No it's not. You're misidentifying the problem and placing your fundamental belief on a logical fallacy.

It is not a human right to do things that can have a negative effect on others. I have the right to swing my fist. I do not have the right to swing my fist into your face. My rights end where your rights begin. Growing plants can effect more people than just you. If it is just effecting you, then you should have the right to do it. However we do need arbitrary regulations to distinguish between what just effects you and what effects other people.

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just to make clear DK, it is the arbitrary lines you and others like you have drawn and continue to draw that are hurting people and will continue to hurt people until they are once again reunited with their inherent rights that hurt no one...but i do understand your effort in the quote above, here's a portrayal of when your technique was first developed

[video=youtube;iSxfUmYQeyE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSxfUmYQeyE[/video]

Dan Kone said:

The ability to do whatever you want regardless of impact is not a self evident natural right.

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DK if you are actually interested in discussing what this is really all about instead of debating with yourself as above exampled, then you will need to understand that for myself and the others involved, the cannabis plant provides the convenient platform (topic of the day) with respect to timing and example, thereby allowing us to step forward and declare the obvious, that humans are naturally endowed with the basic right to have and grow plants.
regulating food gardens is only just around the corner in this race to control humans and create total dependency on corporations.
if said human rights had been maintained then the law would have never evolved (1983) into allowing patents on life, and of course patents = $ & control etc, are you beginning to understand how your hurting folks by denying these most basic inherent rights? and how continuing to do so only solidifies the corporate strangle hold on us all?
we are all in a fight for our lives and most of us don't even know it.
this proposal is attempting to reaffirm and reestablish folks abilities to do for themselves in partnership with our relatives in the plant kingdom before such natural rights are extinct and we fail to protect such basic human rights for future generations.
i've gotta run for now, but i'll be back

we are at crunch time for turning this in, so if anyone has editing or other suggestions, now is the time to please bring them forward, thanks.
below is the revised version, but I've also been wondering if we should include definitions for the word "needs" from "to be used for their own needs", and the word "inquiries" from section 2.(b)?


----'Freedom to Grow Plants' Initiative- Ordinance 11564----
Whereas in the State of California, the people of the County of Lake do hereby find and declare that:
When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for people to reaffirm and reestablish the fundamental human rights with which they are naturally endowed, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's origins entitle them, and to recognize a decent respect to for the opinions of humankind, requires that they should declare the causes which compel them to come forward toward the reestablishment of those rights.
We hold these truths to be self-evident: That all humans beings are created equal. That human beings are naturally endowed with certain Rights, and that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to re-declare and reestablish the inherent human rights that would intrinsically correct such governmental negligence, and to reconstitute such in a form as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.
Therefore, in accordance with the 9th amendment of the Constitution of the United States of America,
Amendment IX:
"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.",
and also in accordance with the California State Constitution's Article 1 Declaration of Rights, Section 21.: ..."This declaration of rights may not be construed to impair or deny others retained by the people.",
and, also as consistent with County of Lake Ordinance No. 2267 in relation to private property rights, and,
whereas disregard and contempt for certain human rights have resulted in barbarous acts which have outraged the conscience of humankind, and, whereas in a world which human beings endeavor to enjoy freedom of speech and belief, and where freedom from fear and want has been proclaimed as the highest aspiration of peoples everywhere, be it here proclaimed that it has become necessary to reaffirm and specifically re-constitute the self evident inherent freedom to grow and use plants as described herein:
(Section 1.)
That human beings are naturally endowed with the fundamental right to have and grow the naturally occurring plants of this earth, and the naturally occurring seeds thereof, to be used for their own needs as individuals in pursuit of life and in effort to live,
And that such basic human rights have been recognized and acknowledged to exist and that these rights are held in perpetuity even outside of the constitutional responsibility of a government to protect an individual's right to engage in commerce.
(Section) 1.(a)
That all County of Lake residents who exercise the rights described in section 1., and are compliant with section 2.(a), and are gardening outside (outdoors) or in green houses (and not withstanding any generally applicable urgency ordinance(s) specifically relating to water conservation), are, as accorded in the paragraphs above, necessarily exempt from any County permitting or other County ordinances that would limit an individual's home gardening efforts in conjunction with section 1.
(Section) 2.
Should neighbor complaints that are not related to section 2.(a), or that are not related to a specific medically verifiable toxic health risk to the public arise as an official complaint to the County as a result of an individual(s) exercising the rights as described in section 1., (and not withstanding any effected party choosing to seek remedy and or reparations by way of litigation through civil proceedings), all the effected parties shall be directed to mediation provided for by the County of Lake, and if resolution between the effected parties cannot be achieved in a reasonable effort to mediate (to be determined by the appointed mediator), the effected parties shall then continue mediation at their own expense (to be equally divided between the effected parties) until a resolution between the parties can be agreed upon, or until one of the effected parties withdraws from the mediation.
(Section) 2.(a)
That All who exercise the rights described in section 1., shall take reasonable care to prevent environmental destruction, and are responsible to mitigate any possible foreseen negative impacts on the natural environments, and all persons who neglect such practices shall be subject to the authority designated under section 2.(b) herein, but such remedies are to be used to help individuals come into compliance with this section and not to unreasonably burden individuals who exercise the rights described in section 1.
(Section) 2.(b)
That the County of Lake Environmental Health Department shall administer over individual circumstances that may arise related to section 2. and section 2.(a), herein, but all such administrative authority and compliance inquiries shall be restricted to circumstances where a verifiable neighbor (or resident of the county) complaint in writing and signed by the complainant has been officially registered with the county.
(Section) 3.
That All County, State and Federal criminal laws existing in conflict with individual's exercising the human rights as described in section 1., (and not withstanding an individual in violation of using illegal gardening chemicals, including but not limited to, certain pesticides, herbicides, fungicides and fertilizers), are to be set aside unless it can be determined that the individual circumstance is occurring within the context of 'commerce' related activities as defined herein, or if an individual's violations of Section 2.(a) herein are to the extent of violating a criminal statute.
For the express purposes of this document the word "commerce" shall be taken to mean:
"The buying and selling of goods or services in any form, and in direct reference to the exchange of United States currency (or other such legally recognized tender) for such goods or services."
(Section) 3.(a)
If any provision of this Initiative or the application thereof to any person or circumstance is held invalid, such invalidity shall not affect other provisions or applications of the Initiative which can be given effect without the invalid provision or application, and to this end the provisions of this Initiative are severable. The People of the County of Lake hereby declare that we would have adopted this Initiative irrespective of the invalidity of any particular portion thereof.

here's what definitions we are considering adding:

(1) For the express purposes of this document the words phrased as "to be used for their own needs" shall be taken to mean:

"For use as food, medicine, fiber, fuel, building materials, spiritual or other basic necessities of life."

(2) For the express purposes of this document the words phrased as "compliance inquiries" shall be taken to mean:

"A written and delivered inquiry, and an in person inquiry as to responding to specific complaints, and to which access to inspect private property shall only be in circumstances where the respondent has voluntarily agreed to and granted such or where on an individual basis, a court order has provided for such access."

good luck the LC BOS is filled with old time redneck type who hate growers

biglungs said:

good luck the LC BOS is filled with old time redneck type who hate growers

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no argument there, well now that we have finally found something we agree on, do you have a serious comment about how you would personally feel about a law like this in your county or state wide?
below is the latest version, amended especially in section 3.(a), but there are other changes:

----'Freedom to Grow Plants' Initiative- Ordinance 11564----
Whereas in the State of California, the people of the County of Lake do hereby find and declare that:
When in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for people to reaffirm and reestablish the fundamental human rights with which they are naturally endowed, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's origins entitle them, and to recognize a decent respect for the opinions of humankind, requires that they should declare the causes which compel them to come forward toward the reestablishment of those rights.
We hold these truths to be self-evident:
That all humans beings are created equal. That human beings are naturally endowed with certain rights, and that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, and that to secure these rights, governments are instituted, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, and that whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to re-declare and reestablish the inherent human rights that would intrinsically correct such governmental negligence, and to reconstitute such in a form as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.
Therefore, in accordance with the 9th Amendment of the Constitution of the United States of America,
Amendment IX:
"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.",
and also in accordance with the California State Constitution, Article 1 Declaration of Rights, Section 21.: ..."This declaration of rights may not be construed to impair or deny others retained by the people.",
and, also as consistent with County of Lake Ordinance No. 2267 in relation to private property rights, and,
whereas disregard and contempt for certain human rights have resulted in barbarous acts which have outraged the conscience of humankind, and, whereas in a world which human beings endeavor to enjoy freedom of speech and belief, and where freedom from fear and want has been proclaimed as the highest aspiration of peoples everywhere, be it here proclaimed that it has become necessary to reaffirm and specifically re-constitute the self evident inherent freedom to grow and use plants as described herein:
(Section 1.)
That human beings are naturally endowed with the fundamental right to have and grow the natural plants of this earth, and the naturally occurring seeds thereof, to be used for their own needs as individuals in pursuit of life and in effort to live, and that such basic human rights have been recognized and acknowledged to exist and that these rights are held in perpetuity outside of the constitutional responsibility of a government to protect an individual's right to engage in commerce.
(Section) 1.(a)
That all County of Lake residents who exercise the rights described in section 1., and are compliant with section 2.(a), and are gardening outside (outdoors) or in green houses (and not withstanding any generally applicable urgency ordinance(s) specifically relating to water conservation), are, as accorded in the paragraphs above, necessarily exempt from any County permitting or other County ordinances that would limit an individual's home gardening efforts in conjunction with section 1.
(Section) 2.
Should neighbor complaints that are not related to section 2.(a), or that are not related to a specific medically verifiable toxic health risk to the public arise as an official complaint to the County as a result of an individual(s) exercising the rights as described in section 1., (and not withstanding any effected party choosing to seek remedy and or reparations by way of litigation through civil proceedings), all the effected parties shall be directed to mediation provided for by the County of Lake, and if resolution between the effected parties cannot be achieved in a reasonable effort to mediate (to be determined by the appointed mediator), the effected parties shall then continue mediation at their own expense (to be equally divided between the effected parties) until a resolution between the parties can be agreed upon, or until one of the effected parties withdraws from the mediation.
(Section) 2.(a)
That All who exercise the rights described in section 1., shall take reasonable care to prevent environmental destruction, and are responsible to mitigate any possible foreseen negative impacts on the natural environments, and all persons who neglect such practices shall be subject to the authority designated under section 2.(b) herein, but such remedies are to be used to help individuals come into compliance with this section and not to unreasonably burden individuals who exercise the rights described in section 1.
(Section) 2.(b)
That the County of Lake Environmental Health Department shall administer over individual circumstances that may arise related to section 2. and section 2.(a), herein, but all such administrative authority and compliance inquiries shall be restricted to circumstances where a verifiable neighbor (or resident of the county) complaint in writing and signed by the complainant has been officially registered with the county.
(Section) 3.
That All County, State and Federal criminal laws existing in conflict with individual's exercising the human rights as described in section 1., (and not withstanding an individual in violation of using illegal gardening chemicals, including but not limited to, certain pesticides, herbicides, fungicides and fertilizers), are to be set aside unless it can be determined that the individual circumstance is occurring within the context of 'commerce' related activities as defined herein, or if an individual's violation(s) of Section 2.(a) herein are to the extent of violating a criminal statute.
(Section) 3.(a) Definitions:
(1) For the express purposes of this document the word "commerce" shall be taken to mean:
"The buying and selling of goods or services in any form, and in direct reference to the exchange of United States currency (or other such legally recognized tender) for such goods or services."
(2) For the express purposes of this document the words phrased as "compliance inquiries" shall be taken to mean:
"A written and delivered inquiry, and an in person inquiry as to responding to (a) specific complaint(s), and to which access to inspect private property shall only be in circumstances where the respondent has voluntarily agreed to and granted such access, or where on an individual basis, a court order has provided for such access."
(3) For the express purposes of this document the words phrased as "to be used for their own needs" shall be taken to mean:
"For use as food, medicine, fiber, fuel, building materials, spiritual/religious use or other basic necessities of life."
(4) For the express purposes of Section 1. of this document, the word "natural" and the words phrased as "naturally occurring" shall be taken to mean:
Plant species and varieties of such that have evolved in nature through the traditional pollination and cross pollination processes, be that by wind/weather, or animal (including human) assistance.
(Section) 3.(b)
If any provision of this Initiative or the application thereof to any person or circumstance is held invalid, such invalidity shall not affect other provisions or applications of the Initiative which can be given effect without the invalid provision or application, and to this end the provisions of this Initiative are severable. The People of the County of Lake hereby declare that we would have adopted this Initiative irrespective of the invalidity of any particular portion thereof.

DNAprotection said:

no argument there, well now that we have finally found something we agree on, do you have a serious comment about how you would personally feel about a law like this in your county or state wide?
below is the latest version, amended especially in section 3.(a), but there are other changes:

----'Freedom to Grow Plants' Initiative- Ordinance 11564----
Whereas in the State of California, the people of the County of Lake do hereby find and declare that:
When in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for people to reaffirm and reestablish the fundamental human rights with which they are naturally endowed, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's origins entitle them, and to recognize a decent respect for the opinions of humankind, requires that they should declare the causes which compel them to come forward toward the reestablishment of those rights.
We hold these truths to be self-evident:
That all humans beings are created equal. That human beings are naturally endowed with certain rights, and that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, and that to secure these rights, governments are instituted, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, and that whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to re-declare and reestablish the inherent human rights that would intrinsically correct such governmental negligence, and to reconstitute such in a form as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.
Therefore, in accordance with the 9th Amendment of the Constitution of the United States of America,
Amendment IX:
"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.",
and also in accordance with the California State Constitution, Article 1 Declaration of Rights, Section 21.: ..."This declaration of rights may not be construed to impair or deny others retained by the people.",
and, also as consistent with County of Lake Ordinance No. 2267 in relation to private property rights, and,
whereas disregard and contempt for certain human rights have resulted in barbarous acts which have outraged the conscience of humankind, and, whereas in a world which human beings endeavor to enjoy freedom of speech and belief, and where freedom from fear and want has been proclaimed as the highest aspiration of peoples everywhere, be it here proclaimed that it has become necessary to reaffirm and specifically re-constitute the self evident inherent freedom to grow and use plants as described herein:
(Section 1.)
That human beings are naturally endowed with the fundamental right to have and grow the natural plants of this earth, and the naturally occurring seeds thereof, to be used for their own needs as individuals in pursuit of life and in effort to live, and that such basic human rights have been recognized and acknowledged to exist and that these rights are held in perpetuity outside of the constitutional responsibility of a government to protect an individual's right to engage in commerce.
(Section) 1.(a)
That all County of Lake residents who exercise the rights described in section 1., and are compliant with section 2.(a), and are gardening outside (outdoors) or in green houses (and not withstanding any generally applicable urgency ordinance(s) specifically relating to water conservation), are, as accorded in the paragraphs above, necessarily exempt from any County permitting or other County ordinances that would limit an individual's home gardening efforts in conjunction with section 1.
(Section) 2.
Should neighbor complaints that are not related to section 2.(a), or that are not related to a specific medically verifiable toxic health risk to the public arise as an official complaint to the County as a result of an individual(s) exercising the rights as described in section 1., (and not withstanding any effected party choosing to seek remedy and or reparations by way of litigation through civil proceedings), all the effected parties shall be directed to mediation provided for by the County of Lake, and if resolution between the effected parties cannot be achieved in a reasonable effort to mediate (to be determined by the appointed mediator), the effected parties shall then continue mediation at their own expense (to be equally divided between the effected parties) until a resolution between the parties can be agreed upon, or until one of the effected parties withdraws from the mediation.
(Section) 2.(a)
That All who exercise the rights described in section 1., shall take reasonable care to prevent environmental destruction, and are responsible to mitigate any possible foreseen negative impacts on the natural environments, and all persons who neglect such practices shall be subject to the authority designated under section 2.(b) herein, but such remedies are to be used to help individuals come into compliance with this section and not to unreasonably burden individuals who exercise the rights described in section 1.
(Section) 2.(b)
That the County of Lake Environmental Health Department shall administer over individual circumstances that may arise related to section 2. and section 2.(a), herein, but all such administrative authority and compliance inquiries shall be restricted to circumstances where a verifiable neighbor (or resident of the county) complaint in writing and signed by the complainant has been officially registered with the county.
(Section) 3.
That All County, State and Federal criminal laws existing in conflict with individual's exercising the human rights as described in section 1., (and not withstanding an individual in violation of using illegal gardening chemicals, including but not limited to, certain pesticides, herbicides, fungicides and fertilizers), are to be set aside unless it can be determined that the individual circumstance is occurring within the context of 'commerce' related activities as defined herein, or if an individual's violation(s) of Section 2.(a) herein are to the extent of violating a criminal statute.
(Section) 3.(a) Definitions:
(1) For the express purposes of this document the word "commerce" shall be taken to mean:
"The buying and selling of goods or services in any form, and in direct reference to the exchange of United States currency (or other such legally recognized tender) for such goods or services."
(2) For the express purposes of this document the words phrased as "compliance inquiries" shall be taken to mean:
"A written and delivered inquiry, and an in person inquiry as to responding to (a) specific complaint(s), and to which access to inspect private property shall only be in circumstances where the respondent has voluntarily agreed to and granted such access, or where on an individual basis, a court order has provided for such access."
(3) For the express purposes of this document the words phrased as "to be used for their own needs" shall be taken to mean:
"For use as food, medicine, fiber, fuel, building materials, spiritual/religious use or other basic necessities of life."
(4) For the express purposes of Section 1. of this document, the word "natural" and the words phrased as "naturally occurring" shall be taken to mean:
Plant species and varieties of such that have evolved in nature through the traditional pollination and cross pollination processes, be that by wind/weather, or animal (including human) assistance.
(Section) 3.(b)
If any provision of this Initiative or the application thereof to any person or circumstance is held invalid, such invalidity shall not affect other provisions or applications of the Initiative which can be given effect without the invalid provision or application, and to this end the provisions of this Initiative are severable. The People of the County of Lake hereby declare that we would have adopted this Initiative irrespective of the invalidity of any particular portion thereof.

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TLDR

the only law i support is the COMPLETE decriminalization of every drug on a personal level. the police dont need to waste time and money with this shit. the law would also have to release anyone in jail or prison over drug possession or failing a piss test this law would also have to be nationwide so i can enjoy my CA homegrown in every other state as i visit and put money into the local economy

cool when country is over run by junkies, tweekers and crack heads trying to rob everybody I can take care of my own homestead .

TWS said:

cool when country is over run by junkies, tweekers and crack heads trying to rob everybody I can take care of my own homestead .

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Prohibition doesn't work. The sooner we start looking at addiction as a medical problem instead of a criminal one the sooner we can start cleaning things up. You can recover from an addiction, you can't recover from a conviction.

Sorry I can't buy into that one on those type of drugs. just can't.

TWS said:

Sorry I can't buy into that one on those type of drugs. just can't.

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How is the current system working?

As far as those go fine in my opinion. I don't really know, but we pay for rehab or incarsuration either way and the violent ones who would shot mom & pop at the corner liquor store or rape someone are locked up. I feel bit different about Heroin users then I do crack or meth users because I think they are less likely to commit a violent crime . With that said I don't think the key should be thrown away for non violent or habitual offenders. I just don't think those three should be legal. There is whole communities devastated as there is and it's scary.

TWS said:

As far as those go fine in my opinion. I don't really know, but we pay for rehab or incarsuration either way and the violent ones who would shot mom & pop at the corner liquor store or rape someone are locked up. I feel bit different about Heroin users then I do crack or meth users because I think they are less likely to commit a violent crime . With that said I don't think the key should be thrown away for non violent or habitual offenders. I just don't think those three should be legal. There is whole communities devastated as there is and it's scary.

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I think violent crime should remain illegal. However the problem is that often times our laws and perception of addiction gets in the way of recovering. If you get caught with hard drugs it's likely going to stay on your record forever. You'll not likely to ever have any decent opportunities in life with that kind of conviction. That hopelessness makes it more likely people will remain addicts.

If we instead treated addiction as a medical problem and gave people medical treatment for it instead of a combination of jail and religious groups we could start to curb addiction.

Also - prohibition doesn't stop drugs from being available. It just sends them to the black market making them more expensive and generally more crime is the result of that. If these drugs were instead available in stores and sold for production costs instead of inflated black market prices then there would be no need to for people to commit crimes to get drugs.

If prohibition worked I might feel different about it. However we have plenty of evidence it doesn't work. It doesn't stop drug sales and treating people as criminals for being addicted helps nothing. It's time to end the drug war entirely.

Agree, but the things or risk one takes might curb the desire to use those drugs. It did me, I didn't want to ruin my life and I have an addictive compulsive personality. If I could just go buy it legally and not get in trouble I would probably be 6 ft under now. My children being born and becoming a father saved me from the crack pipe.

I believe 100 % in this statement " If you get caught with hard drugs it's likely going to stay on your record forever. You'll not likely to ever have any decent opportunities in life with that kind of conviction. That hopelessness makes it more likely people will remain addicts. "

Thanks for the chat.

TWS said:

cool when country is over run by junkies, tweekers and crack heads trying to rob everybody I can take care of my own homestead .

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the crackheads, tweekers, and junkies get thr shit no problem anyway they even get it in jail the current prohibition system is broke. your argument is also the same one the anti-pot crowd gives

TWS said:

Agree, but the things or risk one takes might curb the desire to use those drugs. It did me,

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thats u personally some tweekers dont give a shit especially second and third generation ones

TWS said:

I didn't want to ruin my life and I have an addictive compulsive personality. If I could just go buy it legally and not get in trouble I would probably be 6 ft under now. My children being born and becoming a father saved me from the crack pipe.

I believe 100 % in this statement " If you get caught with hard drugs it's likely going to stay on your record forever. You'll not likely to ever have any decent opportunities in life with that kind of conviction. That hopelessness makes it more likely people will remain addicts. "

Thanks for the chat.

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lucky for u some. people will sell thr kids for a hit of some dope. if these drugs were regulated and sold safely as DK said scenarios like that or i will trade u this laptop i stole for some meth wouldnt happen. it costs way too much to incarcerate someone especially for violating parole for some meth residue in a bag.

I hate meth and tweekers. But jail just doesn't work. Very very few people go in and come out rehabilitated. In addition the current penalties are not a deterrent. And making them any harsher would be entering cruel and unusual territory.

I'm not sure legalizing all drugs in the answer, but I know that our current solution isn't working. I think education is the real key, the real solution. Unfortunately that is the one thing people shy away from the most and is the number one thing the government wants to take away.

Mithrandir420 said:

I hate meth and tweekers. But jail just doesn't work. Very very few people go in and come out rehabilitated. In addition the current penalties are not a deterrent. And making them any harsher would be entering cruel and unusual territory.

I'm not sure legalizing all drugs in the answer, but I know that our current solution isn't working. I think education is the real key, the real solution. Unfortunately that is the one thing people shy away from the most and is the number one thing the government wants to take away.

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just wanted to make certain folks understand that the proposed measure of this thread does not 'legalize drugs' per say, it legalizes plants by restoring human rights to have and grow plants...
now its looking like monday before we file it though.
here is the most recent version:


County of Lake, State of California
Ordinance No. 11564
Freedom to Grow Plants, Human Rights Restoration Initiative

Declaration:
Whereas in the State of California, the people of the County of Lake do hereby find and declare that:
When in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for people to reaffirm and reestablish the fundamental human rights with which they are naturally endowed, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's origins entitle them, and to recognize a decent respect for the opinions of humankind, requires that they should declare the causes which compel them to come forward toward the reestablishment of those rights.
We hold these truths to be self-evident:
That all humans beings are created equal. That human beings are naturally endowed with certain rights, and that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, and that to secure these rights, governments are instituted, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, and that whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to re-declare and reestablish the inherent human rights that would intrinsically correct such governmental negligence, and to reconstitute such in a form as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.
Therefore, in accordance with the 9th Amendment of the Constitution of the United States of America,
Amendment IX:
"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.",
and also in accordance with the California State Constitution, Article 1 Declaration of Rights, Section 21.: ..."This declaration of rights may not be construed to impair or deny others retained by the people.",
and, also as consistent with County of Lake Ordinance No. 2267 in relation to private property rights, and,
whereas disregard and contempt for certain human rights have resulted in barbarous acts which have outraged the conscience of humankind, and, whereas in a world which human beings endeavor to enjoy freedom of speech and belief, and where freedom from fear and want has been proclaimed as the highest aspiration of peoples everywhere, be it here proclaimed that it has become necessary to reaffirm and specifically re-constitute the self evident inherent freedom to grow and use plants as described herein:

(Section) 1. Findings:

That human beings are naturally endowed with the fundamental right to have and grow the natural plants of this earth, and the naturally occurring seeds thereof, to be used for their own needs as individuals in pursuit of life and in effort to live, and that such basic human rights have been recognized and acknowledged to exist and that these rights are held in perpetuity outside of the constitutional responsibility of a government to protect an individual's right to engage in commerce.

(Section) 1.(a)

That all County of Lake residents who exercise the rights described in section 1., and are compliant with section 2.(a), and are gardening outside (outdoors) or in green houses (and not withstanding any generally applicable urgency ordinance(s) specifically relating to water conservation), are, as accorded in the paragraphs above, necessarily exempt from any County permitting or other County ordinances that would limit an individual's home gardening efforts in conjunction with section 1.

(Section) 2. Responsibilities:

Should neighbor complaints that are not related to section 2.(a), or that are not related to a specific medically verifiable toxic health risk to the public arise as an official complaint to the County as a result of an individual(s) exercising the rights as described in section 1., (and not withstanding any effected party choosing to seek remedy and or reparations by way of litigation through civil proceedings), all the effected parties shall be directed to mediation provided for by the County of Lake, and if resolution between the effected parties cannot be achieved in a reasonable effort to mediate (to be determined by the appointed mediator), the effected parties shall then continue mediation at their own expense (to be equally divided between the effected parties) until a resolution between the parties can be agreed upon, or until one of the effected parties withdraws from the mediation.

(Section) 2.(a)

All who exercise the rights described in section 1., shall take reasonable care to prevent environmental destruction, and are responsible to mitigate any possible foreseen negative impacts on the natural environments, and all persons who neglect such practices shall be subject to the authority designated under section 2.(b) herein, but such remedies are to be used to help individuals come into compliance with this section and not to unreasonably burden individuals who exercise the rights described in section 1.

(Section) 2.(b)

The County of Lake Environmental Health Department shall administer over individual circumstances that may arise related to section 2. and section 2.(a), herein, but all such administrative authority and compliance inquiries shall be restricted to circumstances where a verifiable neighbor (or resident of the county) complaint in writing and signed by the complainant has been officially registered with the county.

(Section) 3. Special Circumstances:

County, State and Federal criminal laws existing in conflict with individual's exercising the human rights as described in section 1., (and not withstanding an individual in violation of using illegal gardening chemicals, including but not limited to, certain pesticides, herbicides, fungicides and fertilizers), are to be set aside unless it can be determined that the individual circumstance is occurring within the context of 'commerce' related activities as defined herein, or if an individual's violation(s) of Section 2.(a) herein are to the extent of violating a criminal statute.

(Section) 4. Definitions:

(a) For the express purposes of this document the word "commerce" shall be taken to mean:
"The buying and selling of goods or services in any form, and in direct reference to the exchange of United States currency (or other such legally recognized tender) for such goods or services."

(b) For the express purposes of this document the words phrased as "compliance inquiries" shall be taken to mean:

"A written and delivered inquiry, and an in person inquiry as to responding to (a) specific complaint(s), and to which access to inspect private property shall only be in circumstances where the respondent has voluntarily agreed to and granted such access, or where on an individual basis, a court order has provided for such access."

(c) For the express purposes of this document the words phrased as "to be used for their own needs" shall be taken to mean:

"For use as food, medicine, fiber, fuel, building materials, environmental damage mitigation or other environmental concerns, privacy, aesthetics or ambiance, spiritual/religious requirement, (or other) basic necessities of life."

(d) For the express purposes of Section 1. of this document, the word "natural" and the words phrased as "naturally occurring" shall be taken to mean:
Plant species and varieties of such that have evolved in nature through the traditional pollination and cross pollination processes, be that by wind/weather, or animal (including human) assistance.

(Section) 5.

If any provision of this Initiative or the application thereof to any person or circumstance is held invalid, such invalidity shall not affect other provisions or applications of the Initiative which can be given effect without the invalid provision or application, and to this end the provisions of this Initiative are severable. The People of the County of Lake hereby declare that we would have adopted this Initiative irrespective of the invalidity of any particular portion thereof.

Mithrandir420 said:

I hate meth and tweekers. But jail just doesn't work. Very very few people go in and come out rehabilitated. In addition the current penalties are not a deterrent. And making them any harsher would be entering cruel and unusual territory.

I'm not sure legalizing all drugs in the answer, but I know that our current solution isn't working. I think education is the real key, the real solution. Unfortunately that is the one thing people shy away from the most and is the number one thing the government wants to take away.

Click to expand...

From what I've seen people who end up in prison or in jail for a long time due to things related to drug use come out way worse than when they went in.

If you look at drug use rates during the drug war Vs before the drug war then it's pretty obvious all the drug war has done is make drugs more profitable for organized crime. The cartels are much worse than the American mob that gained power as a result of alcohol prohibition. Al Capone took over one city. The Cartels have taken over a whole country, and parts of several others. That is all because of prohibition.