Killing Root Rot

Well the system had 2 doses of chlorine as fatman recommeneded in the past 20 hours or so. Now they had straight RO water and so Final Phase to help rinse things. I'm going to introduce weak nutrients tomorrow along with great white, zho and pray for the best. Thoughts? sound like a plan?
 
Ok, thx fella for the help. I'm breeding some bennies tonight, meanwhile the plants have been flushed thoroughly to get out all sterilizing agents. I inoculated the system white great white and ZHO. They've have bennies for 24 hours, I've taken of a pic of one leaf and will compare day after day and hope the yellow spotting stops, will update here. pH is still creeping up about .4 every 12 hours. I'll monitor that as well, a stabilization should indicate better health, correct? ppms stay about the same once I top off the res, so they still aren't eating I'm assuming?

I've looked at the roots and they look the same, not worse, which is a good thing, hopefully she'll sprout new root hairs. 5 weeks into flowering do they still produce new roots? When does root production stop?
 

Malevolence

New Member
Most roots grow in veg, but if you have root problems it will try to grow more even in flowering. Which kinda sucks because that is energy that could be going into bud.

When you see new growth white tipped roots, you will know they are starting to turn around. Keep up with the bennies. Old leafs and roots won't get any better, but the slime should go away and brown/dark spots should fade over time.
 
I'll keep an eye on them over the next few days. The pH keeps rising every 12 hrs or so from 5.8 to 6.3-6.4 Will continue to buffer. No new root hairs yet, also hit them with another scoop of great white when I topped off the res.
 
Ok, roughly 5 days later, I am finally noticing a stabilization in the ph, didn't move from 6.1 all night (quite impressed :D ). Also I top of my res every morning and check the ppms to see if the plants are eating. Finally! Today I noticed a 150 ppm drop from 650 to 500 and the only thing else I've added besides the great white and zho is CANNAZYM (last 48hrs only), nutes have been at %50 strength (Advanced Ph Perfect Connoisseur AB). But wait, this thread and disease lead to more research on enzymes....

From what I understand when the root rot gets well establisted you must disolve the dead root matter to uncover the tops cells of your roots so they can uptake again. So I found that enzymes help break down that dead organic matter. We've all heard of a lot of them, hygrozyme, sensizym, the list goes on, but I stumbled across Cannazym, i think this is the "KEY" to unlocking your root system. All enzymes claim to break down plant matter, but cannazym is the only one that works imo. Guy did a experiment of cannazym on a paper towel, completely dissolved the piece, showing the enzymes worked. Others have repeated this test and claim cannazym is the only one that actually breaks down the material. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpTc_8FLGow

I plan on doing this experiment side by side with sensizym cannazym and a control to prove this myself, will post results back here.
 
Well here's my results. Great SUCCESS, at least I think so :D

10 days later, after intial dose of bleach, half strength nutes, Great White, ZHO, CananZym ****, I now have new root hairs growing, fresh and WHITE!!! :clap:

pH over the past 24 hours has dropped from 6.2 to 5.7 as well. All very good signs! Thanks everyone here, I think I've won! (fingers crossed). Well keep all posted.

I will post pictures tonight when they wake up.
 

bass1014

Well-Known Member
ROOTS never stop growing. during all phases of growth. we just can't see this.. in my dwc my root mass is as big as my 5 gallon bucket. so when ever i have stinky roots i do a res change and use hydrogen peroxide to clean and flush my roots..



Ok, thx fella for the help. I'm breeding some bennies tonight, meanwhile the plants have been flushed thoroughly to get out all sterilizing agents. I inoculated the system white great white and ZHO. They've have bennies for 24 hours, I've taken of a pic of one leaf and will compare day after day and hope the yellow spotting stops, will update here. pH is still creeping up about .4 every 12 hours. I'll monitor that as well, a stabilization should indicate better health, correct? ppms stay about the same once I top off the res, so they still aren't eating I'm assuming?

I've looked at the roots and they look the same, not worse, which is a good thing, hopefully she'll sprout new root hairs. 5 weeks into flowering do they still produce new roots? When does root production stop?
 

South Texas

Well-Known Member
Because of all the self impossed problems caused by new wave, play God growing, like expossing bleach & chem posions to babbies & soil to kill fungi's & pest, I grow only organic. One handfull of whole/stone ground cornmeal per plant will grow a fungi that will kill root rot, leaf mold,etc. Like liquid seaweed will cause the stalk to be so healthy & tough that limbs won't break & spider mites can't bore in to cause harm. No chems. They killed your plants immunity system. Now She's weak, & sickly. But that's great, the chem folks has more chems to sell you, laughing all the way to the bank. Man's greatest mistake is trying to improve Mother Nature, instead of working with Her. With a HEALTHY plant, you CAN play God & do some VERY amazing things without all the BS.
 

Malevolence

New Member
ROOTS never stop growing. during all phases of growth. we just can't see this.. in my dwc my root mass is as big as my 5 gallon bucket. so when ever i have stinky roots i do a res change and use hydrogen peroxide to clean and flush my roots..
slimed roots sure do stop growing.


Because of all the self impossed problems caused by new wave, play God growing, like expossing bleach & chem posions to babbies & soil to kill fungi's & pest, I grow only organic. One handfull of whole/stone ground cornmeal per plant will grow a fungi that will kill root rot, leaf mold,etc. Like liquid seaweed will cause the stalk to be so healthy & tough that limbs won't break & spider mites can't bore in to cause harm. No chems. They killed your plants immunity system. Now She's weak, & sickly. But that's great, the chem folks has more chems to sell you, laughing all the way to the bank. Man's greatest mistake is trying to improve Mother Nature, instead of working with Her. With a HEALTHY plant, you CAN play God & do some VERY amazing things without all the BS.
I pretty much agree.... h2o2 and bleach for cleaning shit, bennies for the roots.
 

Taviddude

Well-Known Member
Heisenberg Tea is about the best thing I've used for root disease.
I don't use the Earth Worm Castings.

Nothing but Plant Success Soluble, Floraliscious Plus and Molasses.

Root aphids/fungus gnats CAN and DO live in some Earth Worm Casting batches.
Ask me how I know...

Tav.
 

rundout

Member
Good Info Thank you fatman
Like I said. The MDS said 5 to 10% Sodium Hypochlorite. Maybe I just got the bad luck of their worse posted MSDS. The calculations are based upon your saying 5.75%. And I calculated based upon 5.75% sodium hypochlorite as chlorox bleach is made with sodium hypochlorite. The calculations merely show that if it is 5.75% sodium chlorite then only 3.9% is actually available as chlorine. I can go to probably 10 differnt sites and be told 10 different amounts in various term as to how much chlorine is in house hold Chlorox Bleach. What I see most often is the number 5.25% on sites that say how to mix chlorox for restaurant surface disinfection. Honestly I don't think Chlorox runs a tight control on the chlorine content of most of their products. As long as they provide the minimum of what they advertise they just plug away with mixing and bottling their at least 50 different products containing sodium hypochlorite. Considering that the caactual material cost of producing their products is their smallest expense I do not think they care a lot.

The ppm concentration is 39675 ppm if the Chlorox was 5.75% sodium hypochlorite. If it was 5.75% aviailble Chlorine then it is 57500 ppm. You want 1 ppm.

That means the Chlorox straight from the bottle will treat either 39675 gallons or 57500 gallons. There are 3785 ml to a gallon. So a ml from the bottle will treat either: (39675/3785) = 10.48 gallons or (57500/3785)= 15.19 gallons As 2 ppm is the maximum allowed residual level of chlorine and the residual is how much is left over after all organics are oxidized that means those water treatment plants started out with adding about 4 ppm. Yes there are that much crap still in our water after water treatment plants are through with it. When who look at a treatment report and it gives a list of things like Bromodichloromethane, Chlorodibromomethane, Chloroform, and Trihalonethanes the ose are all compounds formed by chlorine oxidizing organic compounds in the water.

Many people have used chlororinated tap water on their plants for decades without killing their plants. Chlorine harm to plants iis grossly exaggerated. The commercial green house industry has been using chlorine at the residual 0.5 ppm to 1 ppm rate for decades with the food they grow that we eat. Obviously it is not killing the plants or us. They inject chlorine by auto control to keep the residual level between 0.5 ppm and 1 ppm continously. they do not wait for a problem to arrive first, the use those levels as a preventative against Pythh. So whether 10.48 or 15.19 is the proper number does not matter much as Pythh is easily killed by chlorine at levels as low as 0.2 ppm at tempertures of 75 degrees F. It is even more effective at higher temps but the chlorine out gasses quicker as the temperture increases so it must be added more often.

Personally I would use the 1 ml per 10 gallon number. That means a teaspoon of chlorox straight from the bottle is good for 50 gallons of nutrient water.

The use of bleach is the cheapest aspect of my growing. Thats why I find the cost of retail products sucha s Pythoff so AN ish. Flairform charges something like $10 for a 1 quart bottle of RO water with a few cents of Chlorox added to it sold as Pythoff. Reminds me so much of Advanced Nutrients prices.
 

clownbow

Member
Fatman, no offense but you don't know the first thing about microbiology and you are wrong in a number of areas. This was my major in college.

First, you are cutting and pasting information about bacteria that have nothing to do with Pythium. Pythium isn't a bacteria or even related to bacteria, it is a fungus. Bacteria are prokaryotes, while fungi are eukaryotes - vastly different organisms. Enzymes are something different all together. An enzyme isn't an organism as is a bacteria or a fungus. They are actually proteins that catalyze any number of chemical processes. Breaking down organic substances is one example. Enzymes do not pray on other organisms nor do they reproduce to the best of my knowledge.

One of the largest factors that affects microbial reproduction is temperature. It may be true that rapid changes in temperature do not kill microbes but steady temperatures can radically promote or inhibit reproduction which happens exponentially when conditions are right. This is why we keep our food in refrigerators and why food left out spoils. The cold temps keep most bacteria from multiplying at a fast rate.

And bacteria have many mechanisms for competing with other organisms beyond simply consuming all the food. Some eat other organisms, some create conditions toxic for the other organisms, etc. I do not know if there are any of these types of beneficial microbes used to combat Pythium, but I agree that enzymes alone wouldn't do it.

Cutting and pasting info from the internet and trying to make sense of it all is great but some subjects are just too complex to try to figure out yourself. This is one of those subjects.

Bottom line - sterilization is great but if any Pythium gets into your system and it has optimal conditions, it is going to thrive. The best way to prevent this is a multi-pronged approach. Keep food out of the res, keep temps below where Pythium reproduces (over 70 deg F) and keep your solution well aerated.

aqua shield and beneficial bacteria does not work I tested it many times
 

squirt1961

Well-Known Member
NOT

As I said before and will say again chlorine at low levels will not harm your plants or effect the taste of your buds. Chlorine addition to nutrient reservoirs is a good treatment and preventative measure for many bacteria, protozoa and fungi problems including Pythium.

Pythium is is not always there if you kill it and keep a residual level of chlorine present to maintain a zero level of pythium. It is nearly impossible with the many bad growng sytems in use to always keep Pythium at non injurous levels with the measures you suggest. With most systems being poorly designed (small tube aeros, NTF in small gutters and fense posts) so that roots are nearly always laying in very low DO water or even totally anoxic water and with DWC and Bubblepoincs systems full of dead and dieing roots and low DO levels reagrdless of all efforts to raise DO and reservoirs not being changed regularly (at least once a week) simply aerating the water and keeping the temp low will not keep phytium in check. Period.

Does anyone really think nearly every commercial green house grower uses chlorine constantly just to support the chlorine industries. No they use it to eradicate Pythium and to keep it from being able to return to cause harm.

Pythium and Recycled Irrigation Water

- By Ping Kong, Patricia A. Richardson and Chuan Hong

Chuan Hong is an assistant professor of Plant Pathology, Ping Kong is research scientist and Patricia A. Richardson is research specialist at Virginia Tech’s Hampton Roads Center, Virginia Beach, Va.

Research Results
Genetic codes of biological agents are stored in chemicals called deoxyribonucleic acid (DNA) or ribonucleic acid (RNA). For Pythium pathogens, these genetic codes are stored in double stranded DNA. In this project, we developed a DNA fingerprinting technique for rapid and accurate species identification. The underlying mechanism of this technique is to separate the two complementary DNA strands, then let individual strands form secondary structures (conformations). Under prescribed fingerprinting conditions, formation of secondary structures depends on the DNA sequence thus can be a reliable character for species identification. The fingerprinting technique is called single-stranded conformational polymorphism (SSCP) analysis. With a single DNA fingerprint, we were able to differentiate 36 Pythium species assessed so far.
With this DNA fingerprinting technique, we have identified more than 20 species of Pythium from irrigation water. The most abundant species include P. dissotocum, P. torulosum, P. sulcatum and P. porphyrae. All identified species are plant pathogenic but vary in degree of aggressiveness. These results indicate the diversity of Pythium species present in irrigation water and the need for water decontamination in greenhouse and nursery production, especially those recycling irrigation water.

A total of 15 isolates were tested with zoospores for chlorine sensitivity and were assigned a number/letter combination. These isolates included six from nonchlorinated irrigation water, five from chlorinated water and four from diseased plants. Chlorine assay of each isolate was repeated twice. Efficacy of chlorine treatment was measured by the average number of colonies per petri dish with the most colonies per dish for control (0 ppm). Numbers of colonies varied among the repeated tests of the same isolates. They also differed with isolates from the same sources (nonchlorinated water, chlorinated water or plants). Differences among the isolates within the three sources remain unclear. Figures 1 and 2, below, illustrate the data; detail assay data of the 13 other isolates were omitted for simplicity.

No colonies were recovered at 2 ppm or above for the majority of isolates. Four isolates produced a few colonies at 2 ppm or above in one or two of the three repeated tests. Isolate 17C2 produced two colonies at 2 ppm in one test. Isolate 23J3 produced 0.3 colonies at the same concentration in two tests. Isolates 4E1 and 5J5 produced a few colonies at 8 ppm in one test, but none at 2 ppm or above in the other two tests (see Figure 1, page 33). Isolates producing colonies at 2 ppm or above produced colonies only at 1 ppm or lower in additional tests. These results suggest that the previously recommended 2 ppm free chlorine at discharge points (risers or sprinklers) for control of Phytophthora species also will effectively control Pythium zoospores in irrigation water. It must be noted that substantial numbers of colonies were recovered at 1 ppm for a majority of the isolates, and there essentially were no differences in colony recovery between 0.25 and 1.0 ppm of chlorine for most isolates. This chlorine response is considerably different from that of Phytophthora species reported previously. The mechanism behind this is unknown. But these results suggest that any failure to maintain recommended 2 ppm chlorine may expose entire crops in the production facility to Pythium diseases.

Pythium diseases are a major limiting factor affecting floral crop production. This problem will continue to aggravate with growing global water scarcity and pollution. Identification along with pathogenenicity tests of Pythium species present in irrigation water suggested that decontamination of recycled water before use is required to produce quality plants. Growers should use this recommendation as a guide when building a new production facility (e.g., greenhouse) or modifying an existing facility to minimize Pythium disease risk.

If anything chlorine should be used at heavier doses than I recommended. However as few people have a colorimeter or even a dye test to test for residual levels of chlorine I usually just reccommend adding chlorine at lower levels near 1 ppm and suggest higher levels be added only when lower levels appear inadequate.

For anyone that buys a colorimeter to test for residual chlorine or even a dye test I recomend the 2 ppm level initially and lowered to 1 ppm after the first Pythium killing dose of 2 ppm residual held at that level for at least 30 minutes. Depending on the amount of Pythium present and the amount of dead roots it can take several small doses after the initial large dose so as to maintain the residual level at 2 ppm for at least 30 minutes.
Thank you so much for this great information. I've been using great white its supposed to be a good bacteria and prevent root problems and rot. I wonder if chlorine bleach would effect it.
 

Skylander

Well-Known Member
Yeah it sure will! Bleach wills kill beneficial and bad bacteria but in my case rot alway came back. A sterile environment works but when you get root rot in a sterile environment it takes over in a hurry. I started over with bleached clean equipment and rot always showed back up at some time in the grow until I started tea. I havent had root rot since! Its been over a year since my last outbreak. I use the ancient forest tea recipe. What Ive learned recently is make sure you allow the beneficial bacteria eat all the molasses or it will add to the problem because the sugar will feed the bad bacteria also. It should smell earthy not sweet! I use ebb and flow buckets and before tea I never got thru a grow without rot at some degree. You can brew a teaspoon of great white in a tea and make it 5 to 10 times more active then when you add it straight from the container. As a result a container can last you a year or more depending on the container size. Ive used the same ingredients for over a year. Its cheap and extra effective. I learned this from the Captain. Just look up his "live or sterile" write up on google. He will break it down better then I can! It works!!!! He has documented grows using dwc, top-feed, soil, and Ebb and flow. I stay away from bias info! Check it out man!
 
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