It's A Fuct World

lordjin said:

So are you saying I should chuck my RO filter and start using straight tap water out of my faucet and my grows will be just as good as they were in the past with filtered water? Just want to double check on that.

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Or, as you originally wrote (text as appeared in my email notice of a reply to this thread):

So are you saying I should chuck my RO filter and start using straight tap water out of my faucet and my grows will be just as good as they were in the past with filtered water? I don't believe that.

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Believe it. If water is of suitable quality for drinking- and chlorinated, fluoridated water from a muni treatment plant most assuredly is- it's ideal for hydroponic growing. RO filtration is completely unnecessary for water from a municipal reticulation system.

Al B. Fuct said:

Or, as you originally wrote (text as appeared in my email notice of a reply to this thread):



Believe it. If water is of suitable quality for drinking- and chlorinated, fluoridated water from a muni treatment plant most assuredly is- it's ideal for hydroponic growing. RO filtration is completely unnecessary for water from a municipal reticulation system.

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Still not convinced. I think there is too wide a variance from one municipality to another. And sure, you could drink my faucet water and you won't keel over, but it's far from suitable drinking water by my standards and my plant's standards. I already wasted my money on my RO filter, so I'll think I'll just keep using it, thanks.

I had a lengthy discussion with the guy at my hydro shop about how the very nature of hydro growing is about variables on a case-by-case basis. We were agreed that even if he and I ran the exact same system, we wouldn't have the exact same results. We know what has worked for us, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's going to work for everyone.

Edit:
And I re-worded my original post in an attempt to present my question in a milder fashion, but since you called me out... Okay. I find that piece of advice suspect.

Be unconvinced if you so choose. Water quality from muni system to muni system will insubstantially vary but not in any manner significant to its use in hydroponic growing.

If you want to know what's in your water, your local treatment plant will provide you with analysis data on your request- they often publish it on their websites.

Seriously, how do you think plants have managed for the last few million years on that filthy, nasty rainwater that's been filtered through soil? C'mon.

Al B. Fuct said:

Be unconvinced if you so choose. Water quality from muni system to muni system will insubstantially vary but not in any manner significant to its use in hydroponic growing.

If you want to know what's in your water, your local treatment plant will provide you with analysis data on your request- they often publish it on their websites.

Seriously, how do you think plants have managed for the last few million years on that filthy, nasty rainwater that's been filtered through soil? C'mon.

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Plants surviving in the wild outside is one thing, but I think we indoor hydro growers strive for better quality than the bush growing by the side of the highway.

I have a pretty good idea of what's in my water without any kind of municipal analysis because I can see it building up in my sediment filter. It looks like an accumulation of sewer sludge... And when I clean out my filters... total sewer smell. I wouldn't characterize that as ideal for anything.

The material trapped in your sediment filter is almost certainly iron oxide particles- yep, rust from ageing pipes.

One thing it almost certainly isn't is sewerage. Bear in mind that the water reticulation is pressurised- nothing's going to seep IN to a pressurised water main from a nearby sewerage system. If there's sewerage in your water main, it would have to enter at the head end of the system and would be distributed throughout the system. The city-wide cholera epidemic just might draw some small amount of attention.

If you have an RO system and wish to use it, fine. Those who are on muni water should not go out and buy one, though. Just not necessary- and fairly expensive, to boot.

Al B. Fuct said:

The material trapped in your sediment filter is almost certainly iron oxide particles- yep, rust from ageing pipes.

One thing it almost certainly isn't is sewerage. Bear in mind that the water reticulation is pressurised- nothing's going to seep IN to a pressurised water main from a nearby sewerage system. If there's sewerage in your water main, it would have to enter at the head end of the system and would be distributed throughout the system. The city-wide cholera epidemic just might draw some small amount of attention.

If you have an RO system and wish to use it, fine. Those who are on muni water should not go out and buy one, though. Just not necessary- and fairly expensive, to boot.

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Granted, sewer-like, but not actual sewage.

Has anyone conducted a field study of your report and found it to be conclusively true? I ask that because I can't tell you how many noobs suffered because they used straight faucet water. They eliminate every possible error (except the tap water) and wonder why their seedlings died.

I'm not trying to bust your balls, and your pressure explanation makes sense. Just call me a doubting Thomas (but a friendly one).

Much respect to you, Al.

lordjin said:

Has anyone conducted a field study of your report and found it to be conclusively true?

I'm not trying to bust your balls, and your pressure explanation makes sense. Just call me a doubting Thomas (but a friendly one).

Much respect to you, Al.

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Well, thanks for the respect and all that, but a field study isn't going to be particularly useful in proving a negative.

Water processed through a muni treatment plant is significantly cleaner than rainwater and will have levels of dissolved minerals etc. which will not harm human health. Good enough for your coffee, good enough for your plants.

Al B. Fuct said:

Well, thanks for the respect and all that, but a field study isn't going to be particularly useful in proving a negative.

Water processed through a muni treatment plant is significantly cleaner than rainwater and will have levels of dissolved minerals etc. which will not harm human health. Good enough for your coffee, good enough for your plants.

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Field studies are conducted to prove or disprove anything, positive or negative.

Are you in the United States or Europe?

If you ain't from the US, you don't know what bad water is.

lordjin said:

Field studies are conducted to prove or disprove anything, positive or negative.

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Proving a negative with absolute certainty is functionally impossible. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but unless you have some concrete symptom for which you're looking for a cause, you will chase your tail and waste a lot of time- and money- searching for something evil which in all likelihood does not exist.

The vast majority of (well, 'all') hydroponic grow ops running on muni water get by just fine without additional water filtration. Cannabis plants are not sensitive princesses which require over-the-top water filtration.

Are you in the United States or Europe?

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Neither. Australia.

Al B. Fuct said:

Proving a negative with absolute certainty is functionally impossible. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but unless you have some concrete symptom for which you're looking for a cause, you will chase your tail and waste a lot of time- and money- searching for something evil which in all likelihood does not exist.

The vast majority of (well, 'all') hydroponic grow ops running on muni water get by just fine without additional water filtration. Cannabis plants are not sensitive princesses which require over-the-top water filtration.



Neither. Australia.

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Then how did you prove that RO is NOT necessary? That's a negative. More, not just for your Austrailian municiple water sources, but for every municipality in every state in the US? Perhaps your information is correct world-wide?

How about a side by side? Any Los Angeles growers want to experiment with an RO plant and a tap water plant side by side to see which one does better?

The claim that RO is required for growing cannabis in hydroponics is extraordinary. The burden of proof of an extraordinary claim lies with the claimant. So- how did you determine that RO is necessary? Specifically, what problem were you seeking to resolve- and did it work?

Al B. Fuct said:

The claim that RO is required for growing cannabis in hydroponics is extraordinary. The burden of proof of an extraordinary claim lies with the claimant. So- how did you determine that RO is necessary? Specifically, what problem were you seeking to resolve- and did it work?

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I never clamined RO is necessary for all hydroponic growers, but you claim that RO is a waste of time and money for everyone.

You said proving a negative is impossible. How did you prove RO is NOT necessary, not just for you, but for everyone?

Edit: And what problem was I trying to solve? Let's see, that would be getting the stinking chlorine/sewer smell out of my water before feeding to my plants. And yes, it worked.

Chlorination is not only harmless to plants but pathogen suppression in the reticulation system is a highly desirable outcome. If you can smell chlorine in your water, that's evidence of UNDERchlorination, which, along with any objectionable 'sewer' smell, that you should pursue with the LA water treatment authority.

So, what was the actual problem with your plants that you were looking to resolve? Did it work?

Al B. Fuct said:

Chlorination is not only harmless to plants but pathogen suppression in the reticulation system is a highly desirable outcome. If you can smell chlorine in your water, that's evidence of UNDERchlorination, which, along with any objectionable 'sewer' smell, that you should pursue with the LA water treatment authority.

So, what was the actual problem with your plants that you were looking to resolve? Did it work?

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Stop dancing around my question with scientific sounding mumbo jumbo.

First you say that RO is not necessary to all, then you say it is scientifically impossible to prove a negative. Which is it?

Then you go on to say that I clamied RO is necessary to all (which I never did) and then say the burden of proof is on the claimant? I never claimed such a thing.

Confusing.

i think its both man, he is saying it does NOT help and how can he prove it NOT helpig. se his question is can you prove it DOES help (a positive)..

my .02 but I don't think Fuct is being arguementative here..

p.s. scientific sounding mumbo jumbo? lol nice..

lordjin said:

Stop dancing around my question with scientific sounding mumbo jumbo.

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What 'scientific sounding mumbo jumbo' would that be?

It's timely at this moment to make the earth-shattering observation that hydro shops are in business to make a profit. They sell a number of products of dubious benefit to the user but of very concrete benefit to the shop's bottom line. Shops employ salespeople to persuade customers of the benefit of products, without necessarily providing any solid evidence that the products are necessary.

It's OK- you can admit that you were sold a bill of goods on dubious claims of benefit. We won't think you were suckered or anything.

cerberus said:

i think its both man, he is saying it does NOT help and how can he prove it NOT helpig. se his question is can you prove it DOES help (a positive)..

my .02 but I don't think Fuct is being arguementative here..

p.s. scientific sounding mumbo jumbo? lol nice..

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If he can't prove it NOT helping, then how can he say it doesn't help? He's making claims here, not me... so the burden of proof is on him.

Al B. Fuct said:

What 'scientific sounding mumbo jumbo' would that be?

It's timely at this moment to make the earth-shattering observation that hydro shops are in business to make a profit. They sell a number of products of dubious benefit to the user but of very concrete benefit to the shop's bottom line. Shops employ salespeople to persuade customers of the benefit of products, without necessarily providing any solid evidence that the products are necessary.

It's OK- you can admit that you were sold a bill of goods on dubious claims of benefit. We won't think you were suckered or anything.

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I agree my hydro shop has everything in 250g bags, small bottles etc, cant get bulk. How did you convince them to get 20L H2O2 in?

Al B. Fuct said:

What 'scientific sounding mumbo jumbo' would that be?

It's timely at this moment to make the earth-shattering observation that hydro shops are in business to make a profit. They sell a number of products of dubious benefit to the user but of very concrete benefit to the shop's bottom line. Shops employ salespeople to persuade customers of the benefit of products, without necessarily providing any solid evidence that the products are necessary.

It's OK- you can admit that you were sold a bill of goods on dubious claims of benefit. We won't think you were suckered or anything.

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So you're giving me a life lesson on the moral shortcomings of retail operations? Maybe you should try patronizing a first time grower instead of me. What? Everything they have on the shelves at my hydro store is not absolutely essential? My, my thanks for letting me in on that.

I'll admit that when you admit your information isn't perfect.

lordjin said:

If he can't prove it NOT helping, then how can he say it doesn't help? He's making claims here, not me... so the burden of proof is on him.

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I repeat: The claim that RO is required for growing cannabis in hydroponics is extraordinary. The burden of proof of an extraordinary claim lies with the claimant. So- how did you determine that RO is necessary? Specifically, what problem were you seeking to resolve- and did it work?

And what was that 'scientific sounding mumbo jumbo' you were accusing me of a few posts back?

You're at very high risk of being deemed a troll at this point. Knock it off, begone or I'll see to it that you are gone. Remember, I am a mod now, albeit a somewhat reluctant one.

*BUDS said:

I agree my hydro shop has everything in 250g bags, small bottles etc, cant get bulk. How did you convince them to get 20L H2O2 in?

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Oh, they can get bulk packaging if they want to. However, if you guessed that the margin is higher on small packages, your guess is right. Ask them for larger packages. If they won't respond to your requests for larger size packages with appropriate discounting, shop elsewhere. My hydro supplier was quite happy to buy in 25kg jugs of H2O2, particularly after I did the shopping for them, obtained pallet-quantity pricing and indicated what I would be willing to pay, which included a healthy profit for the shop.