Is this light burn?

CheGueVapo

Well-Known Member
Stick your hand in there with the back of it facing the lights, feel the heat? Your plants do too.

That's advice I've seen for HID lighting but not with LED. I've read that LED doesn't have the IR heat like HID; that's why you can run LED air temps in the 80's but weed like temps in the 70's with HID lighting.
They dont have IR... still if you hit the plants with the lucifer, meaning ultra high intensity... less and less gets absorbed, it's called "saturation". This chemical not absorbed photons still hit the Leafs and heat it! Therefore we need the good circulating ventilation at the tops to air-chill them!

Same happens with your hand.... you have no chlorophyll, so you feel it better. Good point, always check with hand! NO matter its LED... light itself is hot too!


2000W ... :) Take care your hand does not catch fire!

With such intensity..... 15 minutes run out of water, can roast everything :/
Keep them cooling fueled! Without water under such intensity the temperatures skyrocket in the canopy. :fire:
 
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Week4@inCharge

Well-Known Member
The equation being how commercial growers design their facility. Of course there is! But what the happy medium consists of varies. Some growers may have a blank check and not expect to be profitable for many years or, perhaps, never (I know a grower in that situation). Others have scraped up enough $$ to get started, just barely, so they can't afford the "bells and whistles". Again, it's all tradeoffs.

For all growers buying lights, for all products really, the big tradeoffs are features vs price - it you've only got $150, for example, the feature set is pretty limited. Once you start going up in price you can add features - removable driver, waterproof, chainable, dimmable, foldable, connection to a central monitoring system, variable spectrum. The list gets longer all the time, as technology improves and allows features to trickle down from the lab to the high end and then down the price chain.

But there's more to it than making the light run. The grower has to learn how to make it work. The instructions of "30" above canopy for seedlings" is a good guideline but not optimal, especially since light output from a given fixture drops over time and especially since the manufacturer is not on the hook for the outcome of a grow. I put some $$ into a PAR meter - why trust my crop to a manufacturer guideline? They have far lest vested interest in the success of my crop than I do so I stack the deck in my favor to come up with a successful grow.

And that's one of my hobby horses - light is food for a plant (nutes are analogous to vitamins and minerals). It's easy to overfeed or underfeed a plant, as we've seen. Unfortunately, without a way to measure how much food it's getting you have to rely on experience (experience is very expensive) or wait until the plants show symptoms. In the worst case, the plants suffers tissue death. At the moment, the cheapest PAR meter is just under $200 but some of the reviews are, not unexpectedly, not positive. But the reason that it's a $200 product is because it's not made like a $500 product (tradeoffs anyone?) but, as far as I can tell, it's better than a software solution (I tested Corona/Photone and decided against using it) and using a light meter seems appears to have too big of a margin of error.

My approach is to use the technology that is cost effective for me, keep learning, and, though I didn't get it at first, listen to your plants.
experience is very expensive indeed, I'm currently doing the lux meter reading calculated to ppfd.. not the same as a PAR meter but should be little better than an app on a smartphone. https://www.waveformlighting.com/horticulture/convert-lux-to-ppfd-online-calculator
 
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rmax

Well-Known Member
And that doesn't refute my assertion.
I'm a residential/personal grower.

RIU is the only website I post on. It seems a lot of people here have the same problem with plants self-destructing at around 4 weeks flowering. I'm in the club and am trying to figure out why too. What's the common thread?

I think I've done a good job checking PH and EC, watering to run-off, changing to different soils. Maybe three grows ago I did have problems with PM and mites but learned to combat those in advance.

This past summer I bought a CA unit for my house to have God-like control of environment, in a basement. Humidity was no longer a problem and I got a pretty good nightly temperature swing. At the end of the grows I smash open the soil and the plants aren't root bound in any major way. My plants still self destructed.

The only thing left is the lights. The lights seem to be very high above the canopy in the types of grows I want.

I do see pics on here of perfect grows. I can't figure it out. :)
 

Week4@inCharge

Well-Known Member
I'm a residential/personal grower.

RIU is the only website I post on. It seems a lot of people here have the same problem with plants self-destructing at around 4 weeks flowering. I'm in the club and am trying to figure out why too. What's the common thread?

I think I've done a good job checking PH and EC, watering to run-off, changing to different soils. Maybe three grows ago I did have problems with PM and mites but learned to combat those in advance.

This past summer I bought a CA unit for my house to have God-like control of environment, in a basement. Humidity was no longer a problem and I got a pretty good nightly temperature swing. At the end of the grows I smash open the soil and the plants aren't root bound in any major way. My plants still self destructed.

The only thing left is the lights. The lights seem to be very high above the canopy in the types of grows I want.

I do see pics on here of perfect grows. I can't figure it out. :)
I might have a clue, it hit me yesterday reading a blog ab
I'm a residential/personal grower.

RIU is the only website I post on. It seems a lot of people here have the same problem with plants self-destructing at around 4 weeks flowering. I'm in the club and am trying to figure out why too. What's the common thread?

I think I've done a good job checking PH and EC, watering to run-off, changing to different soils. Maybe three grows ago I did have problems with PM and mites but learned to combat those in advance.

This past summer I bought a CA unit for my house to have God-like control of environment, in a basement. Humidity was no longer a problem and I got a pretty good nightly temperature swing. At the end of the grows I smash open the soil and the plants aren't root bound in any major way. My plants still self destructed.

The only thing left is the lights. The lights seem to be very high above the canopy in the types of grows I want.

I do see pics on here of perfect grows. I can't figure it out. :)
lol... yes ..the 4th week curse .. could be something as simple as using organic pH down instead of the hard stuff that kills beneficial bacteria. .. it can't be that simple of a thing could it? Nah I'm full of it ... but did order some organic pH down for the next grow. Some of the stuff out there is crazy expensive, then some seem reasonable like here--->

https://www.arbico-organics.com/product/safergro-ph-down-ph-adjuster-complexing-agent/organic-soil-conditioners
Like mentioned above getting some LUX, PPFD numbers up here to share might help all of us figure this out. Do we need one if them digital thermometers to check surface temps of the top leaves to now!? lmfao....
on my troubles spots I'm getting this ...

Screenshot_20211003-135439.png
 

Delps8

Well-Known Member
They dont have IR... still if you hit the plants with the lucifer, meaning ultra high intensity... less and less gets absorbed, it's called "saturation". This chemical not absorbed photons still hit the Leafs and heat it! Therefore we need the good circulating ventilation at the tops to air-chill them!

Same happens with your hand.... you have no chlorophyll, so you feel it better. Good point, always check with hand! NO matter its LED... light itself is hot too!


2000W ... :) Take care your hand does not catch fire!

With such intensity..... 15 minutes run out of water, can roast everything :/
Keep them cooling fueled! Without water under such intensity the temperatures skyrocket in the canopy. :fire:
There's no reason to try to use your hand to test the heating ability of an "white" or "sunlight spectrum" LED light. One reason is that humans are terribly inaccurate at guarding temperature and for very understandable reasons*. I certainly wouldn't trust the "hand check" when I can get an IR gun for $20 - but that's fighting the wrong battle.

Incandescent lights inherently give off heat, that's why you see them being used over food trays in a cafeteria and that's why people in the US complained when the Federal government banned high intensity incandescents - a lot of people used those lights as a heat source. CFL's, which were the blessed replacement don't generate (much) heat. Further along the lighting chain, LED's that a give off heat are manufactured. Those are the ones called "far red" and they're expensive and not as efficient in terms of how much PAR they deliver as a red, green, blue, or UV LED because IR is the part of the spectrum that we interpret as heat.

*I get a kick of people who think that our species can multitask. Our brain operates at something light 8 cycles per second and, according to an article I just Googled, our throughput is 60 bits per second (that's 7.5 bytes per second). Compare that to even a slow modern computer that operates at, what, 3 billion cycles per second and transfers data, in some places, at 175,000,000,000 bytes per second.
That's why we don't use humans on an AWACS. Humans are great at something but we suck at others - which is why we invented those things.
 

Week4@inCharge

Well-Known Member
There's no reason to try to use your hand to test the heating ability of an "white" or "sunlight spectrum" LED light. One reason is that humans are terribly inaccurate at guarding temperature and for very understandable reasons*. I certainly wouldn't trust the "hand check" when I can get an IR gun for $20 - but that's fighting the wrong battle.

Incandescent lights inherently give off heat, that's why you see them being used over food trays in a cafeteria and that's why people in the US complained when the Federal government banned high intensity incandescents - a lot of people used those lights as a heat source. CFL's, which were the blessed replacement don't generate (much) heat. Further along the lighting chain, LED's that a give off heat are manufactured. Those are the ones called "far red" and they're expensive and not as efficient in terms of how much PAR they deliver as a red, green, blue, or UV LED because IR is the part of the spectrum that we interpret as heat.

*I get a kick of people who think that our species can multitask. Our brain operates at something light 8 cycles per second and, according to an article I just Googled, our throughput is 60 bits per second (that's 7.5 bytes per second). Compare that to even a slow modern computer that operates at, what, 3 billion cycles per second and transfers data, in some places, at 175,000,000,000 bytes per second.
That's why we don't use humans on an AWACS. Humans are great at something but we suck at others - which is why we invented those things.
I concur.
 

Delps8

Well-Known Member
I might have a clue, it hit me yesterday reading a blog ab

lol... yes ..the 4th week curse .. could be something as simple as using organic pH down instead of the hard stuff that kills beneficial bacteria. .. it can't be that simple of a thing could it? Nah I'm full of it ... but did order some organic pH down for the next grow. Some of the stuff out there is crazy expensive, then some seem reasonable like here--->

https://www.arbico-organics.com/product/safergro-ph-down-ph-adjuster-complexing-agent/organic-soil-conditioners
Like mentioned above getting some LUX, PPFD numbers up here to share might help all of us figure this out. Do we need one if them digital thermometers to check surface temps of the top leaves to now!? lmfao....
on my troubles spots I'm getting this ...

View attachment 5001642
Nice! That's the ace in the hole for a light meter. If you can get the conversion data, that's a huge step up!

I've seen a couple of manufacturers who released that data and suspect that will be a trend. They've got the data so it's a question of repackaging it. Also, the consumer is getting more sophisticated and demanding it. No one was having these conversations even a couple of years ago. It's a really interesting, dynamic market.
 

rmax

Well-Known Member
I also wonder if a light mover is a good idea. Not to cheap-out on lights but so the plants get light on all parts of the stalks and stems. Fans are good at moving leaves but not branches.
 

Delps8

Well-Known Member
I also wonder if a light mover is a good idea. Not to cheap-out on lights but so the plants get light on all parts of the stalks and stems. Fans are good at moving leaves but not branches.
Why put light on stalks and stems?

Lemme broaden it (as is anyone can shut me up today…)

I was reading something about the eternal question - should we defoliate cannabis? and one poster is a strong advocate of no defoliation - just leaf tucking and getting rid of fan leaves that block air flow. Other posters are gung ho on removing foliage, some are really into almost stripping the plant. Both sides of that argument are arguing to get leaves "out of the way" if they're blocking "bud sites".

Bundle that together with where you're going and out pops the question - what parts of the plant, specifically, are directly impacted when receiving light. The only thing that I've read that uses light directly are leaves which use light to in photosynthesis. Above, you implying that stalks and stems should receive light, as well.

So, who gets what when the lights shines?

Asked and answered - Google "what parts of a plant use light". I just skimmed the first dozen± responses and it's all about photosyntheses. That a just does not square with what you're implying (not crapping on it - just trying to figure out some of this stuff) and it flies in the face of growers who argue endlessly about defoliation vs tuck. If the only part of the plant that uses light directly, lots of people have been pissing up a rope for a long, long time.

Someone else write something now. ;-)
 

Week4@inCharge

Well-Known Member
Why put light on stalks and stems?

Lemme broaden it (as is anyone can shut me up today…)

I was reading something about the eternal question - should we defoliate cannabis? and one poster is a strong advocate of no defoliation - just leaf tucking and getting rid of fan leaves that block air flow. Other posters are gung ho on removing foliage, some are really into almost stripping the plant. Both sides of that argument are arguing to get leaves "out of the way" if they're blocking "bud sites".

Bundle that together with where you're going and out pops the question - what parts of the plant, specifically, are directly impacted when receiving light. The only thing that I've read that uses light directly are leaves which use light to in photosynthesis. Above, you implying that stalks and stems should receive light, as well.

So, who gets what when the lights shines?

Asked and answered - Google "what parts of a plant use light". I just skimmed the first dozen± responses and it's all about photosyntheses. That a just does not square with what you're implying (not crapping on it - just trying to figure out some of this stuff) and it flies in the face of growers who argue endlessly about defoliation vs tuck. If the only part of the plant that uses light directly, lots of people have been pissing up a rope for a long, long time.

Someone else write something now. ;-)
even roots turn green when the lights hit them, surface roots, so there has to be something there.
 

Delps8

Well-Known Member
even roots turn green when the lights hit them, surface roots, so there has to be something there.
Brings a whole new meaning to "exposed roots".

Sure there's some reaction to light in terms of reflectance, but Google "what is the role of roots in a plant" . The discussion, I checked some of those a while back so I'm sure I don't recall it perfectly) deals with how roots interact with the nutrient solution/soil. If they're roots, implication being almost all of them are almost always underground, evolution would tend to make them efficient at dealing with things other than photons.

OTOH, some plant roots are exposed to air and sunlight. Visit your local mangrove swamp so, yeh, it's not an ironclad distinction. I'm sure there's a classification for a plant with that characteristic - that's what botanists do,
 

rmax

Well-Known Member
Why put light on stalks and stems?

Lemme broaden it (as is anyone can shut me up today…)

I was reading something about the eternal question - should we defoliate cannabis?
I was thinking of a light mover in terms of the movement only. Bear with me. If we look at some of the pics in this thread it seems some of the live plant furthest from the light fixture still looks green and good Vs the plant nearest the light fixture being burnt and browning.

Now spin-up a pic of plane(t) Earth. It looks like the path the Sun most travels is also the desert belt.

In the tent the plant/light never moves day after day until it dies, like the plants in Earth's desert belt.
 

PadawanWarrior

Well-Known Member
The only reason that I can think of to move a dimmable light away from the canopy gets you less light but a more uniform distribution of light. But I'm a personal grower not a commercial grower. Light falling on a canopy is more uniform at, say 24" vs 6". Check out the lights at ppfdcharts.com. That appears to be real data.
The power of light falls off the further you move from it (duh) but it's amazing how much it falls off by moving from 6" to 12" for example. Check out the inverse square law.
Just for grins and giggles, I've attached the PPFD map from the Kind LED that I used in 2017 (Series 1) and from their Series 2 light. When I unarchived my grow equipment at the beginning of this year, I contacted Kind and they sent me those two documents. Both of those are for a 2' x 4' tent. In my opinion those fall into the "dogshit" category. When I got those documents, I put the Kind in the box and put the box in the trash and started shopping for a light I ended up with a Mars SP 3000 and have now gone to a Growcrraft X3 (the Growcraft lights are on sale at the moment). Those light are in the "not dogshit" category. :-)



View attachment 5001094View attachment 5001095
Nice. I've got a link for an extra 5% off through ChilLed.
 

Delps8

Well-Known Member
I was thinking of a light mover in terms of the movement only. Bear with me. If we look at some of the pics in this thread it seems some of the live plant furthest from the light fixture still looks green and good Vs the plant nearest the light fixture being burnt and browning.

Now spin-up a pic of plane(t) Earth. It looks like the path the Sun most travels is also the desert belt.

In the tent the plant/light never moves day after day until it dies, like the plants in Earth's desert belt.
I see where you're going with that. I agree, we can see a lot of desert near the equator but spin the globe to East Asia and it's very hot but very wet.

Like you pointed out, "some of the live plant furthest from the light fixture still looks green and good Vs the plant nearest the light fixture being burnt and browning". Putting the light in motion might have avoided that but turning down the dimmer knob is cheap and very effective.
 

Delps8

Well-Known Member
Just saw that Migro is selling a PAR meter for $295 and it's, essentially, as accurate as an Apogee or LI-COR. Nice to see more PAR meters coming to market.
 

PadawanWarrior

Well-Known Member
Nice. They offer a discount if you're willing to wait N days. I put myself on the 90 days list and I got a shipping notice after about 3 weeks, IIRC.
Ya, I have a link too though that they gave me. I had one for Timber too, but I need to ask them for an updated one. I like to save people money if I can. Most that have been here awhile know about the HLG code, but newer people don't so I'm posting that code a lot. Just saved @CaseyQuinn a few bucks. I thought he knew the code, but I said WTH, I'll mention it just in case. Good thing I did.
 

Delps8

Well-Known Member
Ya, I have a link too though that they gave me. I had one for Timber too, but I need to ask them for an updated one. I like to save people money if I can. Most that have been here awhile know about the HLG code, but newer people don't so I'm posting that code a lot. Just saved @CaseyQuinn a few bucks. I thought he knew the code, but I said WTH, I'll mention it just in case. Good thing I did.
That's good of you.
 

Week4@inCharge

Well-Known Member
I see where you're going with that. I agree, we can see a lot of desert near the equator but spin the globe to East Asia and it's very hot but very wet.

Like you pointed out, "some of the live plant furthest from the light fixture still looks green and good Vs the plant nearest the light fixture being burnt and browning". Putting the light in motion might have avoided that but turning down the dimmer knob is cheap and very effective.
Yup, was in denial myself last two weeks, but after measuring and a lot of calculating, and a lot of reading here through these threads, turned the knob back. Seems like heat and light stress are two different things, and one in the same.
 
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