Is this a Vero 29 killer?

Danielson999 said:

Luxeon SunPlus Series.

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I love that brochure. A lot of great info crammed in to a single document. I especially liked the list of potential cash crops Philips thinks their SunPlus LEDs can be used to grow.

Fuck this cannabis, I want to grow some crack.

Randomblame said:

Interesting app! I would like to know more about these it, is it available open source or is there a beta version? Is it iOS or Android based, are other tools needed, Windows, sensors,..

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It's written in PHP. It's a web app so it will run on anything with a Browser. Desktop, tablet, phone. A little to much data for a phone, desktop would work best.

I have it running on my Windows XP workstation. I can easily post to one of my website and make it freely available to anyone. I just need to make a few changes because the variable parameters are hard coded. I go in to the source and change them to what ever I need.

Basically you have to enter the relative flux at 10° increments from 10° to 90°. Then set the limits for canopy height, and range of distance between fixtures or CoBs.

I will need a day or two to make the changes.

The Blue Xs are the numbers that the app needs.

Thanks a lot! I will definately try it when available...

Everyone worth their salt prefers discrete diodes to cobs...
but until about 6 mos ago the only justifiable (and affordable) departure from an HPS without reflow soldering hundreds of leds was a CoB based luminaire.

When you're not a researcher (no one here is paid to be) you use what tools are available to you. That doesnt mean you dont understand better options exist, that was you being presumptuous in post #1.

Either way, everyone appreciates new input. No one appreciates a "newbie" introducing themselves with an essay about how no one knows what theyre talking about.

Best of luck on your project, I look forward to the results in earnest.

DrMisunderstood said:

I think you guys are doing fine with the CoBs. I think you you can do better.

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DrMisunderstood said:

I am seeing 100-300V supplies being used because the 35V CoBs are in series.

I am in the business of horticulture narrow band research. No CoBs allowed.

I do not understand where you got the impression that CoBs are superior to discrete 1-3W LEDs, but I can kick the shit out of any CoB with discrete narrow band LED design.

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COBs are easier for DIY.
No need to reflow solder, and when you're only buying in small numbers COBs are pretty cheap. Single LEDs tend to be relatively expensive unless you're buying very large numbers.
MPCBs can also be a bitch to get.

But recently Horticulturelightinggroup has been selling boards with LM561 mid-power LEDs so COBs have lost their comperative diy convenience edge.

People also prefer to stay with things they're familiar with, so it's normal that DIY growers prefer COBs because for a long time that's what has been the most convenient for them.

DrMisunderstood said:

Mainly to improve uniformity to get the LEDs closer to the canopy. Much closer. I do not care what color, just what ever works the best.
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Well, it also depends on the COB and the discrete LED.
Not that the weaker ones are used by 90+% of the users here.

A clu028...1201 is at most a 9 watt chip.
An XHP35 is more powerful than that and iirc a single die.

At some point uniformity differences become irrelevant, but most people prefer higher powered COBs because it's somewhat cheaper initially.

Anyway, the current LM561 and other similar mid-power diodes are simply superior to current COBs.
Maybe if a new series is released again it's superior in cost/efficiency for small scale DIY purposes but I'll see.

Anyway, I think Cree is also going to update their white XP-G3 soon as royal blue has just had an update.

DrMisunderstood said:

I am being misquoted. I have never promoted mono wavelengths.

I have said I prefer discrete LEDs over CoBs but never specified any color. The purple LEDs were brought up by someone else and I only gave my opinion. And actually I said I do not like the purple.

There is almost no published studies on cannabis. Lots on tomatoes, lettuce, and basil. There are rumors that the feds may give in and the Universities will be able to do cannabis studies a couple of years down the road. So guess what? You guys are the one of the few places that have data on cannabis. But you already know that.

I'm not that guy that came here to make trouble. I have 40 years of electrical engineering and had a manufacturing businesses for 20 years.

I think you guys are doing fine with the CoBs. I think you you can do better. Mainly to improve uniformity to get the LEDs closer to the canopy. Much closer. I do not care what color, just what ever works the best.

If we can agree that 1000 µmole PPFD is the same whether it comes from a CoB or a PCB with discrete LEDs then we don't have much to disagree on.

I certainly have not said anyone here is doing any thing wrong other than using Lumens to make bad decisions. I have expressed one opinion on CCT and CRI and that is within a the same series of LEDs (or CoBs), the Deeper the Red, the better. The higher the wavelength on the Red Peak is better and more important than any other characteristic. That's my opinion, not a fact. Do I care to debate that, NO. Live and let live.

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So how do you feel about mixing the 2 techs to make a gavita killer? I would like to see you start your own thread on discrete diodes in this led section,because it seems you have alot of info to contribute that will definitely get lost in this thread.

DrMisunderstood said:

I am being misquoted. I have never promoted mono wavelengths.

I have said I prefer discrete LEDs over CoBs but never specified any color. The purple LEDs were brought up by someone else and I only gave my opinion. And actually I said I do not like the purple.

There is almost no published studies on cannabis. Lots on tomatoes, lettuce, and basil. There are rumors that the feds may give in and the Universities will be able to do cannabis studies a couple of years down the road. So guess what? You guys are the one of the few places that have data on cannabis. But you already know that.

I'm not that guy that came here to make trouble. I have 40 years of electrical engineering and had a manufacturing businesses for 20 years.

I think you guys are doing fine with the CoBs. I think you you can do better. Mainly to improve uniformity to get the LEDs closer to the canopy. Much closer. I do not care what color, just what ever works the best.

If we can agree that 1000 µmole PPFD is the same whether it comes from a CoB or a PCB with discrete LEDs then we don't have much to disagree on.

I certainly have not said anyone here is doing any thing wrong other than using Lumens to make bad decisions. I have expressed one opinion on CCT and CRI and that is within a the same series of LEDs (or CoBs), the Deeper the Red, the better. The higher the wavelength on the Red Peak is better and more important than any other characteristic. That's my opinion, not a fact. Do I care to debate that, NO. Live and let live.

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So one more time, why do you prefer discrete LEDs over cobs?

nogod_ said:

No one appreciates a "newbie" introducing themselves with an essay about how no one knows what theyre talking about.

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I apologize for coming on the way I did. I now understand errors of that post. It was one comment in particular that triggered me to write that. It was someone that said something about their preference for a particular V29 CCT because of the Lumens per Watt. I also saw other comments using Lumens/Watt to make decisions about which CoB to use.

From an outsider cursory perspective, it appeared you guys didn't know shit. I know differently know.

I also want to take back or edit this: "I can kick the shit out of any CoB with discrete narrow band LED design."

And change it to: I can kick the shit out of any CoB with a discrete LED design.

I do not believe a grow light with just Red and Blue is adequate. There is some wavelength(s) besides Red and Blue that is necessary. No one know which it is... yet.

I choose to add White to Deep Red and Deep Blue. I see here there is some interest in adding narrow band colors to white.

Someone here made a good point about not needing narrow band blue saying the white provides enough. This would explain the difference in philosophy. I would look for white LEDs with as little blue as possible because I would add narrow band blue with Royal Blue LEDs. Now someone looking to get all their blue from a broad spectrum CoB is likely to choose a cooler CCT. I just never thought of it from that perspective. I am not yet swayed, but I am open to other opinions, here is why...

A White LED is made with a Deep Blue LED coated with wavelength converter phosphors. So which is the better source for blue? A blue LED with no phosphor, or a white LED covered with phosphor reducing the efficiency of the blue. I know it's a very small point and on its own is of no consequence. However in my old age I have learned that the small stuff adds up. The difference between something great and something mediocre is the little stuff. What's the difference between a $200 a plate restaurant and a $25? Not much. Just little stuff.

Oh yeah, about me being pompous. To clarify where I am on that, I think a perfect woman requires 3 characteristics. She must drink beer, drive a pickup, and shoot pool. I hate pretentious. And you may already know this, I will stand up for what I believe and am not intimidated. I have been arrested and thrown in jail three times in the past year because I do not give cops the respect they think they can demand. When they ask where I've been and where I'm going, I reply none of your business, and I am popped on a DUI and blow a 0.000 and they still put me in a cell for the night. I would rather go to jail than kiss some fuckin' cop's ass that is violating my 4th amendment rights. He had no right to pull me over because someone called in and reported me drinking a beer while driving.

sixstring2112 said:

So how do you feel about mixing the 2 techs to make a gavita killer?
View attachment 3928587

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Absolutely. I do not like seeing all those electrons being wasted on HPS.

I do like that board and the Samsung 561. That board is very likely better than any of those shitty grow lights sold on Amazon and eBay. It definitely is going to blow them away in the PPFD per Watt as long as the power supply and driver is efficient. I have not seen how it is laid out. I suspect I am not going to like the way the LEDs are connected, but that still does not change it being one of the better boards available. Likely the best choice available. Not that that is saying much, the bar is not very high.

What is the full part number for the CoB you are using? I want to look at the datasheet.

For that panel i used 5 x 2700k cree 3590 @80cri which has been my favorite cob for my style growing

BuddyColas said:

So one more time, why do you prefer discrete LEDs over cobs?

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I'm going to start by saying, that I have nothing against CoBs and I understand why they are being used here.

Two reasons.

1) I'm real anal on thermal. CoBs have too much heat crammed into a little area.
2) CoBs cannot be positioned close enough to the canopy.

DrMisunderstood said:

I'm going to start by saying, that I have nothing against CoBs and I understand why they are being used here.

Two reasons.

1) I'm real anal on thermal. CoBs have too much heat crammed into a little area.
2) CoBs cannot be positioned close enough to the canopy.

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close enough for what ? heres those 2700k cree from the same batch.this plant is over 4 feet tall,cobs mounted at 6 feet from the floor.i think they work ok?

How about 6"-10" away from a full 250 watt COB (1000w total).

DrMisunderstood said:

I'm going to start by saying, that I have nothing against CoBs and I understand why they are being used here.

Two reasons.

1) I'm real anal on thermal. CoBs have too much heat crammed into a little area.
2) CoBs cannot be positioned close enough to the canopy.

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How close do you run your discrete LEDs to the canopy? And you mentioned 1000 umols...is that your target at the canopy?

sixstring2112 said:

So how do you feel about mixing the 2 techs to make a gavita killer?
View attachment 3928587

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I took a closer look at the Quantum Board. It's not for me. I know my weaknesses. I cannot do anything carefully and I like risk. That is why I just recently gave away my Harley. If I kept riding it, I'd likely be dead. I you think giving a Harley away is weird, wait. I gave it to my ex-wife's husband. I do not know why I do some of the things I do.

For that reason I will not work with lethal voltage. When I'm working with home wiring, 9 out of 10 times I get shocked. I still will not turn off the breaker.

The µMole/J is impressive.


I find this uniformity a little problematic. This can be improved with a wider view angle and better spacing between LEDs. Still it does the job.

sixstring2112 said:

i think they work ok?

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YES! They work great. And I like the fire extinguisher.

Now think of this. If you can position the lights 6" over the canopy that is pretty damn good.

If you can position them at 5 inches that is a 44% increase in PPFD.
4" 125%
3" 300%
2" 800%
1" 3500%

That's impossible? The impossible is only impossible until someone does it.

DrMisunderstood said:

I took a closer look at the Quantum Board. It's not for me. I know my weaknesses. I cannot do anything carefully and I like risk. That is why I just recently gave away my Harley. If I kept riding it, I'd likely be dead. I you think giving a Harley away is weird, wait. I gave it to my ex-wife's husband. I do not know why I do some of the things I do.

For that reason I will not work with lethal voltage. When I'm working with home wiring, 9 out of 10 times I get shocked. I still will not turn off the breaker.

The µMole/J is impressive.


I find this uniformity a little problematic. This can be improved with a wider view angle and better spacing between LEDs. Still it does the job.

View attachment 3928684




YES! They work great. And I like the fire extinguisher.

Now think of this. If you can position the lights 6" over the canopy that is pretty damn good.

If you can position them at 5 inches that is a 44% increase in PPFD.
4" 125%
3" 300%
2" 800%
1" 3500%

That's impossible? The impossible is only impossible until someone does it.

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Check out the par map i made of the quantum/cob fixture i showed you.this is in an open space and nothing is white.im sure the orange bucket absorbs some light as well idk.but each square on the graph represents 1 sq foot.the far corner readings were taken on the far edges as far from center as i could get.taken at 18 inches and 24inches.not the most scientific but a good reference.

The numbers in circles are the 18inch measurement. And when i added more 50w cob fixtures around this one my par @ canopy was around 1400ppfd so around 12 to 14 inches away.as greengenes has said before,light is cumulative. That par map above represents a 4 ft x 5 ft area

DrMisunderstood said:

I'm going to start by saying, that I have nothing against CoBs and I understand why they are being used here.

Two reasons.

1) I'm real anal on thermal. CoBs have too much heat crammed into a little area.
2) CoBs cannot be positioned close enough to the canopy.

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Both reasons also depend on the die density inside the COB.
A Vero 10 isn't much denser than an XP-G3 when it comes to thermals.
Vero 10 consumes up to about 3 times as much power, but the area of the LES is also 3 times as big.

And the CLU028 1201's LES has 3 times the area while only consuming about 1.5x as much as a XP-G3 (Both driven to the max)

While heat dissipation doesn't scale completely with the area, at this scale the differences are small.

Not that thermals are really an issue if you use active cooling.

BuddyColas said:

How close do you run your discrete LEDs to the canopy? And you mentioned 1000 umols...is that your target at the canopy?

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I saw a study done by a University in Mississippi. The cannabis results curve started looking good at about 1000 µMole and the results continued to improve up to about 1500 µMole so 1000 would be the minimum and 1500 would be the target.

I do not currently grow anything. I make the LED fixtures for those that do the research. Now I want to do a project for myself not others. That's why I'm here. My target for distance to canopy, one inch.

sixstring2112 said:

not the most scientific but a good reference

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You did great getting the numbers. The relative PPFD from one to another is as good as anyone can do. I could get more accurate numbers but I use a $15,000 Spectrometer. Your number are just fine. I like to see people doing that. I like that 1086 number. I know how difficult that is.

These are our new target numbers: