Is There A Law To Pay Taxes?

Picasso345

Well-Known Member
Schiff addressed the issue the tax code being the law the professor brought up in the video ... provided in this thread ... with that investigative reporter ... so there is nothing I see that the professor has to counter with ...

bongsmilie
OK, well I'm done here. You can deny the law exists I guess even though it is right there. Some people still claim the earth is flat too. Good luck - don't end up like Schiff - dying in jail as a lonely old man.
 

GrowRebel

Well-Known Member
Like I said before ... the ONLY reason Schiff is in jail is because he wasn't allow to present his case ... the fact he is in jail doesn't prove there is a law ... only that they will go outside the law to keep people in fear of not paying their taxes ...

... you and the professor fail to show there is a law ... you fail to address Schiff's points...

... if anyone is in denial it's you:sleep: ... you can't address Schiff's points ... your professor can't ... you are right ... in one respect ... you're done.:bigjoint:
 

AlphaNoN

Well-Known Member
I'm not sure I understand what evidence he could have presented that would justify not paying income taxes, the 16th amendment allows for it, it has been upheld when challenged (United States v. Collins, 10th Cir. 1990 among others), and is clearly outlined in US code, title 26, subsection a1.

There's no legal basis for his argument unless he presents new evidence. Otherwise the precedent for his case has been set.
 

medicineman

New Member
26 U.S.C. § 61
[G]ross income means all income from whatever source derived, including (but not limited to) the following items:
(1) Compensation for services, including fees, commissions, fringe benefits, and similar items; . . .​

Thus, the tax statutes specifically provide that your wages (“compensation for services”) are part of your gross income. Since no provision of the code allows you to deduct the value of your services from the compensation you receive, they are also part of your taxable income. So the tax laws do impose a tax on wages, regardless of whether anyone thinks they should.

Viredd, this should affirm my arguement about your contention of deducting your income from your tax liabilities, I must agree with Picasso, you just don't want to pay taxes and use all the old dried out libertatian mantras to try and prove the unproveable. Hey, no-one likes to pay taxes, but most enjoy ther comfort and safety they provide. The fact that the government is not responsible to the people is what pisses me off. If I had a voice in how the taxes were spent, it certainly wouldn't be about war for the corporations, and I'm pretty sure your voice would cut all spending for social programs, so no matter what we as individuals think, the government spends by committee, whatever plan gets the most votes gets the nod. The thousands of lobbiests have pretty much sown up the government. I saw this on C-span. They have an inductory day for all the freshmen congressmen. Lobbiests show up and introduce themselves and then contribute directly to the campaign debt of the congressmen. Hello, we're here to help you, now you help us. That is sick!
 

GrowRebel

Well-Known Member
I'm not sure I understand what evidence he could have presented that would justify not paying income taxes, the 16th amendment allows for it, it has been upheld when challenged (United States v. Collins, 10th Cir. 1990 among others), and is clearly outlined in US code, title 26, subsection a1.

There's no legal basis for his argument unless he presents new evidence. Otherwise the precedent for his case has been set.
Did you watch the video?:neutral:
 

TheBrutalTruth

Well-Known Member
Did you watch the video?:neutral:
Actually there is some debate around the 16th amendment also. Apparently when it voted for ratification Ohio was not a state, and in, I think, Virginia the text of the 16th didn't even contain the words that would have made it clear that what was being voted on was a tax on income.

Not to mention that the 16th amendment altered the Constitution in such a way that it made the intent of the Constitution differ greatly from the original intent.
 

ViRedd

New Member
I must agree with Picasso, you just don't want to pay taxes and use all the old dried out libertatian mantras to try and prove the unproveable.
You still don't get it Med. I have NEVER said that I don't want to pay taxes. Its not the paying of the taxes I resent, its the method of collection. A simple sales tax would go a long way toward reviving liberty in this country ... and that's the reason the founders gave congress the power to collect EXCISE taxes. No American should ever live in fear of the crusty, arrogant bureaucrats who reside in those dusty pigeon holes in those IRS buildings.

Vi
 

AlphaNoN

Well-Known Member
Did you watch the video?:neutral:
Actually there is some debate around the 16th amendment also. Apparently when it voted for ratification Ohio was not a state, and in, I think, Virginia the text of the 16th didn't even contain the words that would have made it clear that what was being voted on was a tax on income.

Not to mention that the 16th amendment altered the Constitution in such a way that it made the intent of the Constitution differ greatly from the original intent.
I have watched the video, and his argument (more or less) hinged on the legitimacy of the 16th amendment. The problem is that the 16th amendment has been challenged (several times) and has been upheld in all cases. The precedent has been set by the Supreme Court, for better or worse, that it is legitimate to tax the income of citizens as set forth by the guidelines of the IRS. Under the doctrine of stare decisis, a lower court must honor findings of law made by a higher court that is within the appeals path of cases the court hears.

This precedent allows similar cases, with no new evidence, to be dismissed. It would be wasteful and irrelevant to keep retrying the same case based on the illegitimacy of the 16th amendment as it has already been deemed legitimate by a court of law.
 

GrowRebel

Well-Known Member
I have watched the video, and his argument (more or less) hinged on the legitimacy of the 16th amendment.
So you watched the video eh? ... well I didn't see anything in the video that mention the 16 amendment ... what video were you watching?:roll:
 

AlphaNoN

Well-Known Member
So you watched the video eh? ... well I didn't see anything in the video that mention the 16 amendment ... what video were you watching?:roll:
I have seen both clips in Aaron Russo's "America: Freedom to Fascism". Which details Mr. Schiff's story. Who, by the way, is currently serving a 13+ year prison sentence for tax fraud. The man is (was?) just trying to sell books.

But all semantics aside; the United States legal system will never be a platform for it's own destruction. That is, if the Supreme court declared income taxes illegal, it would open the floodgates of liability that would bankrupt the U.S.

Every person, living or dead, who has ever payed income taxes would be entitled to a refund. The system would simply collapse under a pile of lawsuits.
 

GrowRebel

Well-Known Member
So you didn't watch the video ... so you don't know what you are talking about ... and like I said before the ONLY reason Schiff is in jail ... and others ... is because he was NOT ALLOWED to present evidence proving there is no law ... including supreme court rulings ... the courts didn't go by the law when they tried these people ... what would happen if the court stated taxes were illegal is not the intent of this thread ... we are trying to determine if Schiff is full of shit ... and if so where ... the question remains ... is there a law?:neutral:
 

AlphaNoN

Well-Known Member
The law is the 16th amendment. There it is. Pay taxes on your income or go to jail.

The courts will provide no redress for your complaints, they are a part of the system you are protesting.
 

ViRedd

New Member
The law is the 16th amendment. There it is. Pay taxes on your income or go to jail.

The courts will provide no redress for your complaints, they are a part of the system you are protesting.
And that's why Irwin Schiff referred to federal judges as "The Federal Mafia," or "The Black Robed Mafia."

Vi
 

medicineman

New Member
And that's why Irwin Schiff referred to federal judges as "The Federal Mafia," or "The Black Robed Mafia."

Vi
So, if I call someone a dickhead or a mafiosa, that makes it so. Redd, you are clutching at straws here. The law is plain, it's been pointed out to you numerous times. Just because you don't want to believe it, will not make it dissapear. Pay up you old fuck and quit bitching. Wait untill Obama recinds the Bush tax cuts, ~LOL~, I'll be able to hear your scream all the way in Nevada,~LOL~.
 

TheBrutalTruth

Well-Known Member
So, if I call someone a dickhead or a mafiosa, that makes it so. Redd, you are clutching at straws here. The law is plain, it's been pointed out to you numerous times. Just because you don't want to believe it, will not make it dissapear. Pay up you old fuck and quit bitching. Wait untill Obama recinds the Bush tax cuts, ~LOL~, I'll be able to hear your scream all the way in Nevada,~LOL~.
Yes, quickly followed by people like me screaming, when we realize the kind of damage such an action will do to the economy. It is bad enough that the government at all levels takes 40% - 50% out of the economy and then dumps back in where it wouldn't go before.

Kind of like trying to make a river to flow backwards, which actually happens in very fucked up circumstances.

Though I think the problem is that people that are concerned with wealth and income are too busy trying to figure out how to tax it, instead of trying to make sure that such money continues to move. It doesn't matter if some one has $3 - $4 Million sitting in a bank account if the bank is then able to use that $3 - $4 Million to make loans to people that need it.

It doesn't matter if some one adds $1 Million to their bank account if the bank then lends out that $1 Million.

Or even if some one buys a $1 Million dollar car made by 10 people in Italy giving them each $50,000 with the company they work for taking the balance to pay other employees, or to develop new products (and thus employing other people.)

The idea that wealth is static is absurd. Money moves around (unless it is stored in mattresses or buried in yards. Then it is completely taken out of the economy.

To think that it is possible to move wealth from the top to the bottom ignores the fact that normally the wealth does that on its own, moving from the top to the bottom (and then back up) in a repeating cycle. When the government takes money out of the top and puts it directly into the bottom it screws the middle out of the cash that would have passed through their hands as it moved up and down and around.

It's like the government is deciding to dam up a river at its source, bottle the water and ship it to a city at its mouth, the land between the source and the mouth are not going to have water.

Of course, the government, does allow a little bit of money to trickle from it source through the middle, but even there it continues to try moving the money down faster than it would move on its own, before starting on its way back up, or around.
 

GrowRebel

Well-Known Member
So, if I call someone a dickhead or a mafiosa, that makes it so. Redd, you are clutching at straws here. The law is plain, it's been pointed out to you numerous times.
It's not like that med ... the question is ... why wasn't Schiff given a fair trial if there is a law ... he and others like him were not ... those that were ... didn't go to jail ... so what's up with that? It's not bitching ... it's pointing out we are getting so screwed ..... again .... :eyesmoke:
 

AlphaNoN

Well-Known Member
And that's why Irwin Schiff referred to federal judges as "The Federal Mafia," or "The Black Robed Mafia."

Vi
In that aspect he's right. Federal judges are the gatekeepers of justice and they are dispensing it with an ever increasing political bias.

It's not like that med ... the question is ... why wasn't Schiff given a fair trial if there is a law ... he and others like him were not ... those that were ... didn't go to jail ... so what's up with that? It's not bitching ... it's pointing out we are getting so screwed ..... again .... :eyesmoke:
There are only a handful of people who have avoided criminal (but not civil) penalties by convincing a jury that they were too stupid or delusional to understand the tax laws and their violations were not “willful,” but no one has ever won against the IRS in a tax collection case using one of the frivolous arguments espoused by Schiff.

In pleadings filed in federal court, Schiff himself cited his history of failed court cases, as well as the opinions of a lawyer, a psychiatrist, and a psychologist, as evidence that his actions are irrational and the result of a “mental disease or defect,” so that he is unable to act “willfully” within the meaning of the provisions of the Internal Revenue Code relating to tax fraud. “Defendant Irwin A. Schiff’s Opposition to United States’ Motion for Summary Judgment,” United States v. Schiff, No. CV-S-01-0895 (D.C. Nev. 1/21/2004).
 

ViRedd

New Member
^^^ Schiff was desperate at this point. Why? Because he was facing 151 months in prison ... a sentence he eventually received. Added to that was an additional 11 months for contempt of court. This was in effect a life sentence as Schiff, at the time, was 80 years old.

A very sad commentary on our existing tax system.

Vi
 

AlphaNoN

Well-Known Member
He knew what he was getting into. His two previous convictions and jail sentences show that much.

I would respect the man for his convictions had he martyred only himself, but he has drug countless others into a legal nightmare under false pretenses in order to make a tax free buck on book sales and consultations. He would have garnered much more support had he followed a more noble route. Ironically, the royalties to his tax protester books are now owned by the IRS.

Ultimately, the only thing that will bring about an end to income taxes will be a protest by more people than there are jail cells. Not manipulation of the system supported by income tax.
 

medicineman

New Member
Ultimately, the only thing that will bring about an end to income taxes will be a protest by more people than there are jail cells. Not manipulation of the system supported by income tax.

Haven't you heard, the most vigorous construction projects in the country are the building of new prisons. This, the most incarcerated country in the world, is having a rush to completion of numerous new prisons, private ones. That ought to tell us something about this government. The price the government pays per day for each prisoner is approx 60-100 bucks a day. If they created jobs, like rebuilding the infrastructure, they could put all the inmates and prison guards to work for decent wages and save a bundle., But as one can see, housing humans in pens and feeding them slop while gathering 700.00 a week per head, seems like a no brainer for the prison owners Some prisons actually rent out the prisoners to local farmers/merchants for labor.
 
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