Iran's route to the Med

fb360 · Nov 20, 2012

cannabineer said:
Chro-moly is also the commonest high-tensile steel, popular in bicycle frames. cn

That is true, but it is still an expensive, high performance alloy... Chromoly is used in high performance aircraft parts, as well as high performance bike frames. Cheap bikes are made of aluminum... Huge difference. Furthermore, chrome, titanium, and nickle alloys are all hard to machine, and thus used in applications where the effort and cost is worth the end result. If you have ever milled any of those alloys, it becomes very obvious. Lastly, as I mentioned, in the context of having molybdenum in a Javelin missle, it is most likely to be for melting-point properties, as it is used in Waspaloy, one of the most expensive and high performance alloys on Earth, which is used in space shuttles and fighter jets... - edit: also, the common high tensile steels are more like 1045-1085 and 41xx, which do contain chromium, but not molybdenum. Molybdenum is pricy

cannabineer · Nov 20, 2012

fb360 said:
That is true, but it is still an expensive, high performance alloy... Chromoly is used in high performance aircraft parts, as well as high performance bike frames. Cheap bikes are made of aluminum... Huge difference. Furthermore, chrome, titanium, and nickle alloys are all hard to machine, and thus used in applications where the effort and cost is worth the end result. If you have ever milled any of those alloys, it becomes very obvious. Lastly, as I mentioned, in the context of having molybdenum in a Javelin missle, it is most likely to be for melting-point properties, as it is used in Waspaloy, one of the most expensive and high performance alloys on Earth, which is used in space shuttles and fighter jets... - edit: also, the common high tensile steels are more like 1045-1085 and 41xx, which do contain chromium, but not molybdenum. Molybdenum is pricy

I'm not convinced melting point is key, but I imagine it contributes. When I scanned the PDF paper about the liners for shaped charges, i was surprised to see much attention paid to the crystal structure of the metal. I would have wagered that explosive jet formation proceeds in a liquidus phase, but apparently not. Crystal structure and orientation of the liner appears to contribute much to delaying particularization, the jet breaking into much less effective droplets. Even so, copper (melts around a thousand degrees C) is a good and popular liner material. Even with its low melting point, the crystallinity of the shaped, finished liner made a big difference in the resultant jet's capacity to penetrate armor steel. That was new info for me. cn

hotrodharley · Nov 20, 2012

MQ-9 Reaper drone. 950+ at-the-shaft horsepower turbprop. Carries a combination of AGM-114 Hellfire missiles, GBU-12 Paveway II and GBU-38 Joint Direct Attack Munitions. AMF to the tank and crew. Uh make that a few tanks & crews. Come on through the gap, boys.

fb360 · Nov 20, 2012

cannabineer said:
I'm not convinced melting point is key, but I imagine it contributes. When I scanned the PDF paper about the liners for shaped charges, i was surprised to see much attention paid to the crystal structure of the metal. I would have wagered that explosive jet formation proceeds in a liquidus phase, but apparently not. Crystal structure and orientation of the liner appears to contribute much to delaying particularization, the jet breaking into much less effective droplets. Even so, copper (melts around a thousand degrees C) is a good and popular liner material. Even with its low melting point, the crystallinity of the shaped, finished liner made a big difference in the resultant jet's capacity to penetrate armor steel. That was new info for me. cn

I would also assume that it has other positive contributions as you state, I just happen to know that molyb is used in alloy applications to achieve a higher melting point, but I'm sure it is also used in other various applications as well. edit: My thought process, much like yours, is that they wouldn't introduce a very costly Molybdenum material if they could achieve similar results, with lets say somthing like copper, which is far cheaper.

Doer · Nov 20, 2012

cannabineer said:
Doer, I am reminded of your post #3 in which you tangentially mentioned air power. Air power can trump tanks, Javelins, infantry. it isn't a complete replacement, but as an interdiction tool it came of age in Desert Storm. cn

Who's air power? This stuff takes months, lines in the Sand. UN Mandates. Which Air Power, against...wait for it...Iran's Anti-Air? Sure Air assets can interdict and Air power can get it ass handed back, in various ways. Combined Arms. Global Realism. We had forces in Place. Sadam had forces in Place. Turkey is being a turkey, even now. Remember how we had to bring the 4th in? Afterwards, through Kuwait. Sadly Gaugamela is more wide open now, than it has been in 1000 years. The gateway for Persia to the Med. The gateway for the Macedon to the East. And Persia is now Iran. An even more conquest emboldened than the namesake.

ChesusRice · Nov 20, 2012

Harrekin said:
It's for penetrating armour. Basically just so it's not consumed by the explosion. The missiles are like $20,000 each...so the car reference is particularly apt given it costs roughly the same

It is made to be consumed by fire since it is a jet of molten metal that penetrates armor not a hardened penetrator

Harrekin · Nov 20, 2012

ChesusRice said:
It is made to be consumed by fire since it is a jet of molten metal that penetrates armor not a hardened penetrator

You must be totally retarded if you think molybdenum melts as a result of the explosion. The whole point of it is for penetrating ablative armour prior to it penetrating the main tank armour.

Cannabineer, it uses a copper layer aswell, because it's a two stage explosion.

Doer · Nov 20, 2012

He never said explosion. The rounds that hit are melted into slug of molten death. The ceramic armor defeats HESH and HEAT, not discarding sabot.

Harrekin · Nov 20, 2012

Doer said:
Who's air power? This stuff takes months, lines in the Sand. UN Mandates. Which Air Power, against...wait for it...Iran's Anti-Air? Sure Air assets can interdict and Air power can get it ass handed back, in various ways. Combined Arms. Global Realism. We had forces in Place. Sadam had forces in Place. Turkey is being a turkey, even now. Remember how we had to bring the 4th in? Afterwards, through Kuwait. Sadly Gaugamela is more wide open now, than it has been in 1000 years. The gateway for Persia to the Med. The gateway for the Macedon to the East. And Persia is now Iran. An even more conquest emboldened than the namesake.

Air assets are great too...except for the 20,000ish Stinger missiles that went "missing" during the Libya uprising and are now probably floating around the Middle East.

Doer · Nov 20, 2012

hotrodharley said:
MQ-9 Reaper drone. 950+ at-the-shaft horsepower turbprop. Carries a combination of AGM-114 Hellfire missiles, GBU-12 Paveway II and GBU-38 Joint Direct Attack Munitions. AMF to the tank and crew. Uh make that a few tanks & crews. Come on through the gap, boys.

From where? And certainly Not against anti-air. That is an assassin weapon. Not a combat platform.

Doer · Nov 20, 2012

Harrekin said:
Air assets are great too...except for the 20,000ish Stinger missiles that went "missing" during the Libya uprising and are now probably floating around the Middle East.

One idea is Amb. Stevens was gathering those and shipping them to Syria. There is that ship that is now in Turkish hands. And remember the Envoy had just left the Consulate before it was attacked.

cannabineer · Nov 20, 2012

ChesusRice said:
It is made to be consumed by fire since it is a jet of molten metal that penetrates armor not a hardened penetrator

It's neither solid nor molten but in a "superplastic" domain.

Harrekin said:
You must be totally retarded if you think molybdenum melts as a result of the explosion. The whole point of it is for penetrating ablative armour prior to it penetrating the main tank armour.

Cannabineer, it uses a copper layer aswell, because it's a two stage explosion.

I would have thought it melted ... until I read that paper yesterddy. The crystal structure would not matter if the liner/slug material really did melt. It seems rather to undergo dynamic swaging (cold forging) by the force of the explosion. The detonation front of modern high explosives meets and exceeds four thousand degrees K. But the overtemp pulse is diluted by the mass of metal.

Doer said:
He never said explosion. The rounds that hit are melted into slug of molten death. The ceramic armor defeats HESH and HEAT, not discarding sabot.

Explosion yes. Molten ... seems not. cn

Doer · Nov 21, 2012

Explosions? Have I slipped the context? Are we not talking about kinetic kill, discarding sabot. A 2 foot dart of titanium of something? Or am I confused? Or is it the explosive formed jet from a HESH or a RPG? Sorry I got lost.

cannabineer · Nov 21, 2012

Doer said:
Explosions? Have I slipped the context? Are we not talking about kinetic kill, discarding sabot. A 2 foot dart of titanium of something? Or am I confused? Or is it the explosive formed jet from a HESH or a RPG? Sorry I got lost.

I was talking about the jet from a shaped charge, e.g. HEAT. The discarding-sabot round (APFSDS) is an entirely different beast imo. That dart is cold until impact. Moving at a mile per second through a few inches of hard armor will warm it up some, though. :mrgreen:

cn

hotrodharley · Nov 22, 2012

Doer said:
From where? And certainly Not against anti-air. That is an assassin weapon. Not a combat platform.

The hell it's not. "Fire and forget" weaponry makes this effective from miles out even with the ground assault smart guided bombs.

Iran's route to the Med

fb360

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