Introducing CobKits.com - specializing in DIY and Citizen COBs

weed-whacker said:
i don't understand why we are getting all excited about these citi cobs, yeah they are cheap but the don't get the efficiency when driven soft like cree.... If I'm only running 250w that 5% efficiency is like a month running cost per year saved....
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but they do. every test ive done has citi beating cree down to 10W and below. Do you have any data that shows otherwise? theres this perception that cree is superior to the current offerings in some way but i have yet to see a single test of cree beating clu-058 and im not the only one testing them
 
ReddEyez said:
Whatever man, it was just another passive aggressive statement that you left in a competing companies thread like you often do. We will see here in the upcoming months how fast you change you tune.
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First off, not sure how he is a competitor, DIY and fixture are not the same, he can fill every closet, not my concern or market.
Second, cobkits has stocked cobs and sinks from guess where? Thanks for the support.
And third...I have multiple grows completed with clu058, 3k and 3500k. Where are yours?
I will not be putting anymore of my work and testing out for anyone to jump on and use to make a profit. But will gladly compar and contrast with others who have out the same effort in.

I still don't understand how asking for some real world grows is a hater thing to do?
Hell, the sellers(multiple of them) don't have grow info on them. I complain about not seeing enough grows period. But this lack on the citi end is serious for the claims that have been put down.
 
Greengenes707 said:
That's about right...scroll through and look.
And my point. You have everyone from small closest to warehouses and commercial facilities running Crees and showing it all. Big and little, results and examples are all over. Not citi's.
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well lets see... most people didnt even hear about citis until june and there was next to no US availability until late July, early August. its now second week of september. There are only so many people converting to LED in a given month. Did you expect all the people who've spent thousands of dollars on Cree rigs in the last 12 months to put them on the shelf and buy new chips and use them to grow some magical 4-6 week strain to produce side by side results less than two months later? Youre a rational guy, come on now.

Greengenes707 said:
I don't understand why citi hasn't caught on. They have been getting hyped for months now, and still no grows? And when I ask...I'm a hater. New flash bro...I have bought more citis than anyone one or company on here...and actually use them and don't sell them. That's testing. But ya...I'm just an unjustified hater asking for actual real world use of a product that is claiming to be so much better. WTF was I thinking for wanting to see what others actually do with it so I can compare my data.
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So lets see these results. there are at least 2 threads on this site other than this one that are dedicated to citis. Because it would obviously be in your interest if we had one, just one, example of CXB operating more efficiently/economically than CLU058 on a PAR/W basis (or more economically than CLU048 on a PAR/$ basis), but yet we have yet to see a single result like that.

We can get into the light quality vs quantiy thing but i think most will agree that photons are photons, and if there was something 'wrong' with the citis spectrum they certainly have no shortage of color and CRI options that could 'correct' this. Crees were once looked to as an industry leader but at some point when you are the most expensive option out there and *nearly every single other* manufacturers flagship chip (in some cases several of the models) are beating in on the bench, at a lower cost, yes people will start to look at other options. If youre telling me that cree can overcome the fact that its competitors are *over twice as cost efficient* per PAR produced well then id be a believer for sure.

Hopefully you can find time to respond to this post because I understand that youre very busy since you have ignored every single, post,PM, text message, voicemail, and email ive sent you since i opened my store in the last 6 weeks. Odd way to treat a former customer but thats neither here nor there. Were here for results so if you got em, lets see em!
 
Greengenes707 said:
Second, cobkits has stocked cobs and sinks from guess where? Thanks for the support.
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well until you cut me off lol for whatever reason. guessing you would have never sold me those if it wasnt prior to my webstore opening but no big deal. Ive never been anything but civil and im certainly not attacking your brand, i just test and present data. Grows are great (albeit highly subjective, true side-by-sides are very very very rare here), but they do not negate and or reduce the value of good repeatable bench measurements. so i will continue to bench test and report the data i have and leave it to the consumers to decide on their application. As our colleague @welight says, " an educated customer is a good customer" and i thank you GG and others for putting out the info you have to allow this movement to gain a foothold in a sea of overhyped LED bandwagonning.

im not out there making claims that this or that chip will smash 2gpw or that 400W will replace a DE or that everybody will be beating off ladies with a stick once you use citis. in fact im also actively testing many other mfrs and reporting as the data becomes available. I continue to stand behind my method of bench testing (nobody railed on Supra when he produced the same type of data- yet when i do it i get "its so unscientific! What you dont have a sphere? what no goniophotometer? lol, you dont have a $20K millesecond pulse testing rig?", etc etc.

Id took me a while to get over the piles of hate thrown at me by the users here when i first joined last fall (i mean its pretty damn cliquey here, admit it). My opinion wasnt worth a damn here despite growing since 1992 and using LEDs since 2007. I wasnt really in "the scene" and never even heard of a COB until early 2015 so im sort of a latecomer. But so i took my lumps and took some advice straight from you GG, that objective data is objective data and it is our duty (as forum users, not only vendors) to share and present accurate unbiased data in order to rise the tide on all of us LED users. So that has been my mission and thats all i offer is the results of my testing which i stand behind as valid and repeatable.
 
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we (cree users) just wanna see some citi grows.everyones on the citi train and no pics to show if they even light up lol. im ready to see a 3x 3 or 4x4 side by side grow with some 3500k crees vs citi,surely someone here has enough citis to do this by now ?
i think what gg is getting at is data sheets dont grow weed,or put resin on the rails if ya get my drift.someone needs to man up and show us some grow pics of citi cobs in use.
 
I was thinking the main benefit to me of the current gen Citizen's was similar performance to the Crees for less cost? Going by the 60% efficiency example in this thread https://www.rollitup.org/t/why-are-cobs-better-and-whats-so-great-about-the-3590.920480/page-3 the 1212's running at 20-30 watts each look like a good value.

Am I missing something obvious here? It would be nice to see actual grows or at least some documentation of actual plant response at similar output and efficiency levels though. I'm sure a number of us myself included are looking forward to seeing how they do in the garden.
 
GrowUrOwnDank said:
Dude. Been waiting on that. You told me $25. I mean. I'm not slamming a dude for trying to make money but damn. Plus your shipping? Ugh.

Still. You gotta good business homeboy. Just saying. Gotta pay for over head. Sucks to be poor like me I guess.
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ill hold that price for you. as it is now its $29 with RIU discount. find that driver anywhere for less than $47.

I dont make money on shipping and as many RIUers can attest i have refunded shipping when the site overcharges. There is no way to ship a driver in any expedient manner for cheaper than the $13 flat rate boxes as they are 3 lb each
 
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sixstring2112 said:
we (cree users) just wanna see some citi grows.everyones on the citi train and no pics to show if they even light up lol. im ready to see a 3x 3 or 4x4 side by side grow with some 3500k crees vs citi,surely someone here has enough citis to do this by now ?
i think what gg is getting at is data sheets dont grow weed,or put resin on the rails if ya get my drift.someone needs to man up and show us some grow pics of citi cobs in use.
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well IIRC youve got some crees in a corner of a large HPS setup. how many chips would you need to make a citi corner. im not going to get into the debate about mfr endorsements supporting growers with cheap gear as GG has covered the ups and downs of that, but if you want to do a test ive got a pile of 3000k tester chips i can throw some chips your way. i think we all trust you enough around here to be objective
 
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matriculated bean said:
I was thinking the main benefit to me of the current gen Citizen's was similar performance to the Crees for less cost?
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that would be the $26 CLU048-1818 series yes
the $44 CLU058-1825 are the same price as the citis and outperform on the bench across the board
the $60 CLU058-3618s crush every other chip ive seen across the board on efficiency at a given wattage but i dont stock them as they are expensive and and 100V chips and multiple CLU058-1825s beat them on a price/performance ratio

the getians i tested recently were strong performers and their flagship chip hung with the 1825 and is slightly cheaper but im trying to be practical in what i carry, as overstocking chips in a falling market is a losing game
 
CobKits said:
but they do. every test ive done has citi beating cree down to 10W and below. Do you have any data that shows otherwise? theres this perception that cree is superior to the current offerings in some way but i have yet to see a single test of cree beating clu-058 and im not the only one testing them
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the only data I have is from you and the citi data sheet and the selection tool

in terms of L per watt the citi is no where near cree...what are you talking about?

at 70w or so the citi starts to win, but that is at much lower efficiency than I want.

do i really need to screen shot the pct vs the citi excel sheet?


show me a wattage where a citi cob gets even 54% eff? oh the 058-1825@ 25w? yea sure but then it cost more than cree
how about A lumens per watt higher than cxb3590@ 50w?

I'm not dissing you but I am a bit confused what all the excitement is about, I've got spreadsheets comparing prices and drive current/driver heatsink combos to find the best set up for my space, I just don't know if citi has it, id love to be wrong
 
weed-whacker said:
i don't understand why we are getting all excited about these citi cobs, yeah they are cheap but the don't get the efficiency when driven soft like cree.... If I'm only running 250w that 5% efficiency is like a month running cost per year saved....
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So drive the COB's at the power levels where they are efficient. Anything used not as intended will provide less than desirable results no?
 
sixstring2112 said:
we (cree users) just wanna see some citi grows.everyones on the citi train and no pics to show if they even light up lol. im ready to see a 3x 3 or 4x4 side by side grow with some 3500k crees vs citi,surely someone here has enough citis to do this by now ?
i think what gg is getting at is data sheets dont grow weed,or put resin on the rails if ya get my drift.someone needs to man up and show us some grow pics of citi cobs in use.
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It's coming waiting on parts just hung my 3590 light................
 
weed-whacker said:
the only data I have is from you and the citi data sheet and the selection tool

in terms of L per watt the citi is no where near cree...what are you talking about?

at 70w or so the citi starts to win, but that is at much lower efficiency than I want.

do i really need to screen shot the pct vs the citi excel sheet?
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well you can compare the apples and oranges of crees and citis internal testing in completely different environmnets, or you can put two on the bench side by side in an identical environment and measure the light one produces per watt vs another. i chose the latter


weed-whacker said:
show me a wattage where a citi cob gets even 54% eff? oh the 058-1825@ 25w? yea sure but then it cost more than cree
how about A lumens per watt higher than cxb3590@ 50w?
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heres about the fourth or fifth full test ive done and it isnt even a fair one. i dont happen to have a 4000k cree 80 cri which is in CD bin. i guess i could run a CD bin 3500k in there but everybody would call me biased

https://www.rollitup.org/t/why-are-...so-great-about-the-3590.920480/#post-12944216

That particular post is just efficiency at a given wattage, but cree is the most expensive chip on the board. if you go to the next page where we normalize for chip cost you will see that cree is at the bottom as it is overpriced for its performance relative to every other manufacturer

even the digikey rep i spoke with a week ago mentioned that cree is optimistic in their data relative to other manufacturers methods and that citi overperforms their datasheet.. which is not the first person ive heard that from (none of whom are 'citi fanboys' but people who are familiar and rep multiple manufacturers'

weed-whacker said:
I'm not dissing you but I am a bit confused what all the excitement is about, I've got spreadsheets comparing prices and drive current/driver heatsink combos to find the best set up for my space, I just don't know if citi has it, id love to be wrong
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whos getting excited? i present bench data and people make decisions accordingly. at this point we are all praying that the citis wont make all their plants herm and give everybody eye cancer. well know soon enough i suppose what real world data looks like.
 
CobKits said:
well IIRC youve got some crees in a corner of a large HPS setup. how many chips would you need to make a citi corner. im not going to get into the debate about mfr endorsements supporting growers with cheap gear as GG has covered the ups and downs of that, but if you want to do a test ive got a pile of 3000k tester chips i can throw some chips your way. i think we all trust you enough around here to be objective
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i wish i could take you up on this,but i cant do it right now with my limited space atm.im in the middle of building out a 28 x 32 x10 grow right now but its gunna be a good 3 months yet before im ready to actually grow in there.i figure by then we should see some citi grows but if not i would def set something up.i was thinking about buying some citis recently but not seeing the evidence led me to buying another 30 crees
 
s'all good im sure you'll do well with them. if youre doing it right a few bucks in extra chip cost is really the least of your concerns.

by the time youre ready for citis we might be on to the next cree (any day now, right?), or the new citis due in january, or the new luminus and vero coming out this month... or getians... or nichia.....

i think at some point is the equivalent of hortilux vs ushio vs philips on bulbs. to the point of where its hard to notice differences in a given color temp across the board.

really base efficiency is all weve got to compare, as it is not subjective.
 
CobKits said:
well IIRC youve got some crees in a corner of a large HPS setup. how many chips would you need to make a citi corner. im not going to get into the debate about mfr endorsements supporting growers with cheap gear as GG has covered the ups and downs of that, but if you want to do a test ive got a pile of 3000k tester chips i can throw some chips your way. i think we all trust you enough around here to be objective
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how many citi's would it take to do a side by side with my 15 x 3590 cree bars driven at 1050ma ?
 
Greengenes707 said:
First off, not sure how he is a competitor, DIY and fixture are not the same, he can fill every closet, not my concern or market.
Second, cobkits has stocked cobs and sinks from guess where? Thanks for the support.
And third...I have multiple grows completed with clu058, 3k and 3500k. Where are yours?
I will not be putting anymore of my work and testing out for anyone to jump on and use to make a profit. But will gladly compar make you a and contrast with others who have out the same effort in.

I still don't understand how asking for some real world grows is a hater thing to do?
Hell, the sellers(multiple of them) don't have grow info on them. I complain about not seeing enough grows period. But this lack on the citi end is serious for the claims that have been put down.
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Ok first, when someone asks for recommendation for a light and someone suggests that they DIY or look into purchasing a light from PCL, wouldnt that be considered competition? Second,I have never even purchased anything from Cobkits, so fuck you. I have however made a small purchase from you. And third, not everyone lives in a legal state and can or want to put all of their business on front street. And with you knowing that, as far as Im concerned thats a bitch move on your part for calling out your fuckin so called non-growers. Fourth i havent stole a fuckin thing from you. Fifth, as far as there not being enough grows with the Citis, all of the info is there. You are the big "photons are king" guy. I think youre just ass hurt that there are so many more competitive options. Lastly, I could give a fuck about the testing that you are not going to share, so fuck off.
 
CobKits said:
well you can compare the apples and oranges of crees and citis internal testing in completely different environmnets, or you can put two on the bench side by side in an identical environment and measure the light one produces per watt vs another. i chose the latter




heres about the fourth or fifth full test ive done and it isnt even a fair one. i dont happen to have a 4000k cree 80 cri which is in CD bin. i guess i could run a CD bin 3500k in there but everybody would call me biased

https://www.rollitup.org/t/why-are-...so-great-about-the-3590.920480/#post-12944216

That particular post is just efficiency at a given wattage, but cree is the most expensive chip on the board. if you go to the next page where we normalize for chip cost you will see that cree is at the bottom as it is overpriced for its performance relative to every other manufacturer

even the digikey rep i spoke with a week ago mentioned that cree is optimistic in their data relative to other manufacturers methods and that citi overperforms their datasheet.. which is not the first person ive heard that from (none of whom are 'citi fanboys' but people who are familiar and rep multiple manufacturers'



whos getting excited? i present bench data and people make decisions accordingly. at this point we are all praying that the citis wont make all their plants herm and give everybody eye cancer. well know soon enough i suppose what real world data looks like.
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so you are suggesting that this graph is accurate?


upload_2016-9-9_18-16-53.png


so the 1212 @ 30w is equally as efficient as the cxb3590 @ 50w?

and if i run it at 25w it's 65% eff?

then whats up with this chart? is it off? are the LER numbers correct at least correct(the L per watt are a bit low than the citiLEDselection excel) ?
1212_80_eff.png


and here some other numbers from you

CobKits said:
its a lot of data to digest.

the ones on top are more efficient for example go back to the first 2 graphs for bare chips and lets look at the uber efficient side of the curve

the most cost effective in $/light produced is the $12 1212:
it has a respectable ~13.5W of output at 65% and about 25W @ 60%

View attachment 3777243

where the least cost effective is the $40 cxb which has about 15W @ 65% and 34W@ 60%

View attachment 3777247


so lets peg 60% as our target, we want 1000 watts.
1000W of 1212s at 60% = 40 chips@ 25W x $12 =$480 = $0.48/W
1000W of CXB @ 60% = 30 chips @ 34W x $40 = $1200 = $1.20/W

you gotta take low level readings with a grain of salt as there is maybe 5 umol of ambient lighting not adjusted for, as well as low current measurements are less accurate. Data above 10W/100 umol should be fairly accurate tho
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