Ignorance/Stupidity The New Black/Gay!

KlosetKing said:

I give it about 2 weeks, and this is the stance that Brotherbuz will be touting as well.

Look, I disagree with the way Padawanbater made his post. I (usually) am the last to get rude (unless I want some fun, reference Brotherbuz). But i also disagree wth your defense of the bible. The bible has been the number one thing Christians/Catholics have referenced when trying to remove all doubt from anyone about their faith. To remove that and say its been replaced by 'spiritual bedrock' would go against everything the very religions we speak of have taught for thousands of years.

Now if you want to say YOU are so enlightened that you no longer need the bible, and understand the 'true meaning' (i would assume that would be to lead a good life) then thats great, and i wish more people would do so. But to try to say that we have 'evolved' (that really made me laugh, evolve lol) to not need the book, is a fallacy. Say it like it is friend. YOU have evolved passed the need for the book, and i greatly commend you for that, whatever your spiritual beliefs may be.

Now if only more people who look at their spirituality YOUR WAY would realize that they haven't 'evolved' (again, just funny that someone defending the bible would use that word) or been 'enlightened' at all. They merely walked out of the cave.

Click to expand...

How is calling the bible a piece of political propaganda defending it?

I also didn't say anyone has evolved past the point of needing a book. Not that we do - people were a lot more in touch with their natural spirituality BEFORE that particular book came around. I'm talking about actual biological evolution - which takes a lot longer than the few hundred years that book has existed.

Our brains, minds, and bodies HAVE evolved over milennia to understand the spiritual nature of the world. Spirituality one of the many ways we experience the universe and if we hadn't evolved to be capable of understanding it, there would be no such thing as religion or spirituality. Similarly, had we not evolved hands, there would be no such thing as gloves.

Just as an aside, your assertion that it's laughable for anyone of any christian faith to have a notion of evolution IS rude. You were the "last one to get rude" in this thread only because you were the most recent post. There are plenty of Christians in the world with properly working brains, just as there are plenty of atheists and agnostics in the world without them. I'm not Christian by any stretch of the imagination, and I find many of the large christian organizations to be disgusting, but I would never disrespect someone by calling them stupid based on their spiritual persuasion alone. I HAVE called them stupid when they tried to tell me that the only "logical" explanation for the existence of the grand canyon is that God made a tidal wave that swept the birds out of the sky and carved it, and the evidence given is that there are fossilized bird remains in the layers that make up the walls. My response - So unless birds are hit by a tidal wave, they don't hit the ground when they die?

karri0n said:

How is calling the bible a piece of political propaganda defending it?

Click to expand...

This is how:

karri0n said:

You are incapable of undestanding these concepts because you are, in fact, the one suffering from a lack of intelligence in crucial areas. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_multiple_intelligences#Existential . Pointing out flaws in the bible, a book which was written by man and modified thousands of times to fit the current political agenda of the time does absolutely nothing to detract from the spiritual nature of human beings.

Click to expand...

And its false i might add. It absolutely DOES detract from it. Each and every one of those stories are fabricated to be 'the word of god' and never questioned. Its a tool, and has very little scientific merit. Remember, science does not simply CHANGE its findings so it can keep a congruent opinion. Religion does, (see Dead Sea Scrolls and other books banned from the bible.)

karri0n said:

I also didn't say anyone has evolved past the point of needing a book.

Click to expand...

Just kind of hoping.

karri0n said:

People were a lot more in touch with their natural spirituality BEFORE that particular book came around. I'm talking about actual biological evolution - which takes a lot longer than the few hundred years that book has existed.

Click to expand...

Few thousand* but i totally agree.

karri0n said:

Our brains, minds, and bodies HAVE evolved over milennia to understand the spiritual nature of the world. Spirituality one of the many ways we experience the universe and if we hadn't evolved to be capable of understanding it, there would be no such thing as religion or spirituality. Similarly, had we not evolved hands, there would be no such thing as gloves.

Click to expand...

Um, still agree, so i still dont get where we are arguing here.

karri0n said:

Just as an aside, your assertion that it's laughable for anyone of any christian faith to have a notion of evolution IS rude. You were the "last one to get rude" in this thread only because you were the most recent post.

Click to expand...

Comon now, dont twist my words. I said normally im the last to get rude. I never implied that i DON'T get rude, nor did i imply that there was a particular reason for it here. Lets keep this factual please.
Also, i font directly mean its laughable that Christians believe in evolution, although for the most part yes i do. MOSTLY though, you will find that VERY FEW of them will accept it. I grew up christian, spent 13 years practicing my faith, then moved on. Ive met and discussed science with hundreds of both Christians AND Catholics, and i can tell you without any doubt, that MOST find evolution a direct challenge to their faith and immediately close their mind to it. Like it or not, its the truth sir.

karri0n said:

There are plenty of Christians in the world with properly working brains, just as there are plenty of atheists and agnostics in the world without them. I'm not Christian by any stretch of the imagination, and I find many of the large christian organizations to be disgusting,

Click to expand...

As do i.....

karri0n said:

but I would never disrespect someone by calling them stupid based on their spiritual persuasion alone.

Click to expand...

Please point out to me where i did.

karri0n said:

I HAVE called them stupid when they tried to tell me that the only "logical" explanation for the existence of the grand canyon is that God made a tidal wave that swept the birds out of the sky and carved it, and the evidence given is that there are fossilized bird remains in the layers that make up the walls. My response - So unless birds are hit by a tidal wave, they don't hit the ground when they die?

Click to expand...

And again i still agree. It's not peoples faith i have a problem with, because its not my concern. Its people who take their position of power and use it to exploit peoples faith and twist fact to fit their agenda. One of my favorite ones came from Bill O'Reilly, heres why he thinks god exists:

"The tide comes in, the tide goes out. The sun rises, the sun sets. No miscommunication."

undertheice said:

it must be nice to know the true nature of reality, but a bit lonely.

Click to expand...

As you already know, it certainly fuckin' is.

If its between smart/unhappy and ignorance/bliss, I'll take the smart/unhappy choice ten out of ten times because if you are smart enough, happiness follows. When you understand certain concepts and ideas, much like the religious find comfort in scripture, you can find comfort in them.

i hate to have to break it to you, but those stupid people you continually rail against are the very ones who built the foundations of the sciences you have so much faith in. more often than not, it was men and women of faith who constructed the scientific methodology that still holds true today. they adapted their faith to the world around them, but did not lose it. they could do this because they were not so ignorant as to be blind to the evolution of religious thought, an ignorance you seem to be quite guilty of. they could separate the concrete and the mundane from the spiritual and were often the better for it.

Click to expand...

People in the past get a pass because of what we know today. If you're born today, with the whole host of human achievements already available to your knowledge at the click of a fucking button and you still believe magic man in the sky dun it, you are fucking stupid.

If I were born 500 years ago, the chances are I probably would have been religious, and I'd of been just as fucking stupid as I'm saying religious people are today.

Go check a list of smart people, count the ratio between believers/non believers - yeah, get back to me with the results. Numbers don't lie.

it is religion's attackers that should probably be ashamed. ashamed of entirely missing the point and of their assault on a larger population that has really done them no harm. what you fail to grasp is that faith does not require complete understanding, only the desire to understand and a gratitude for existence. all this ranting has little purpose but to inflate your own ego, a waste of time and an expression of ignorance.

Click to expand...

..and you still don't get it... I attack open ignorance/stupidity. Religion usually just happens to fall in that category. If someone comes into the forum and says using human shit to fertilize their plants is better than other alternatives, you bet your ass I'll be there to say something. The thing is, who really gives a damn about this one random person using feces as fertilizer? Probably just him. Whereas this one random person (when we both know it has never been ONE random person) who spouts his head off about retarded zombie Jews returning and denying evolution actually affects things on a bigger scale.

Seems simple enough to me...

karri0n said:

By definition of ignorant, you are implying that religious people are missing some facts. Please, enlighten us all.

Click to expand...

Cosmology, Biology, Chemistry, Physics, Astronomy,... religious people are missing all the fucking facts.

Furthermore, your incessant need to assert your superiorority to these people and to prove your beliefs to those who don't give a shit speak very strongly toward just who exactly is fostering doubt in their beliefs.

Click to expand...

Seems redundant to make a statement like that to an atheist, hopefully you figure out why later...

KlosetKing said:

This is how:

And its false i might add. It absolutely DOES detract from it. Each and every one of those stories are fabricated to be 'the word of god' and never questioned. Its a tool, and has very little scientific merit. Remember, science does not simply CHANGE its findings so it can keep a congruent opinion. Religion does, (see Dead Sea Scrolls and other books banned from the bible.)

Click to expand...

I said the same thing as you and once again i fail to see where I'm defending the bible. It's a piece of political garbage at its worst and a book of fables at its best. That still doesn't change the fact that people are naturally inclined to be able to recognize the spiritual aspects of reality and that our bodies and our minds are genetically wired to do so.

Since you seem so adamant that I have to defend the bible, and that you're obviously missing a couple points, I will say that in its defense some of the fables have a good message. Mythology isn't supposed to have scientific merit. Saying it's got bad science is the same as saying Paul bunyan has bad science because oxen aren't blue and 50 feet tall. The organizations that pus the idea that every word needs to be taken literally are doing a disservice to their followers.

klosetking said:

Also, i font directly mean its laughable that Christians believe in evolution, although for the most part yes i do. MOSTLY though, you will find that VERY FEW of them will accept it. I grew up christian, spent 13 years practicing my faith, then moved on. Ive met and discussed science with hundreds of both Christians AND Catholics, and i can tell you without any doubt, that MOST find evolution a direct challenge to their faith and immediately close their mind to it. Like it or not, its the truth sir.

Click to expand...

Not in my experience, but you might be from the south and speaking of evangelicals. That's a different story all together and yes, on the bible belt, they are fucking crazy. no argument there. Most christians I talk to really don't find evolution and chrisitianity to be mutually exclusive. I'm not even Christian and I fail to see where it is, unless they are of the "earth is only 4000 years old" persuasion, In which case, yes, they are ignorant of the true nature of the world.

padawanbater said:

Cosmology, Biology, Chemistry, Physics, Astronomy,... religious people are missing all the fucking facts.

Click to expand...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_scientists


But I'm quite certain you have more knowledge of the topics you referenced(each one listed in that article with its own sub-heading I believe) than all of these people combined.

There isn't a list of christian scientists on wikipedia because the majority of western scientists are, indeed, christian.

Padawanbater2 said:

I attack open ignorance/stupidity. Religion usually just happens to fall in that category.

Click to expand...

as i look around, i see so much ignorance that the fantasies of the religious hardly seem important enough to bother with. burning bushes, jewish zombies and big boats full of animal shit seem harmless contrivances when compared to wholesale slaughter and the enslavement of entire nations. what does it really matter, in the course of our daily lives, whether the earth is five thousand or five billion years old, whether the universe was created by a magical man in the sky or some incomprehensible cataclysmic event, or even what happens to us upon our deaths? these may be interesting questions and certainly worth investigating, but most of us are a bit too busy with the business of living to really care one way or the other.

you see, i do get it. i understand the dangers of violent fanaticism and i've noticed that disease isn't restricted to the realm of religion. i understand the importance of exploring the nature of reality to the best of our abilities and constantly questioning "accepted truths", but that can't be all there is to this life. mixed in with that struggle is humanity's basic desire for a sense of structure to the universe and the simple hope for some natural justice, something that balances out the atrocities we see every day. these needs are filled for the vast majority by the religious experience and attacking them for their hope seems a petty pursuit. the masses really aren't all that concerned with quasars, black holes, evolutionary theory or whether alternate dimensions exist. the restless mob merely wants to feel that the struggle that is their lives isn't completely in vain and that there might just be some point to it all. it's all a relatively harmless bit of naivete.

And you set yourself up as being the smart one how? By making this thread?

Padawanbater2 said:

Yes sir it is!

STUPID PEOPLE ARE AN ABOMINATION!!

BEING STUPID IS UNNATURAL!!

STUPID PEOPLE SHOULD BE KEPT AS SLAVES!! (they're too stupid to understand freedom anyway!)

Lmao

Click to expand...

undertheice said:

as i look around, i see so much ignorance that the fantasies of the religious hardly seem important enough to bother with. burning bushes, jewish zombies and big boats full of animal shit seem harmless contrivances when compared to wholesale slaughter and the enslavement of entire nations. what does it really matter, in the course of our daily lives, whether the earth is five thousand or five billion years old, whether the universe was created by a magical man in the sky or some incomprehensible cataclysmic event, or even what happens to us upon our deaths? these may be interesting questions and certainly worth investigating, but most of us are a bit too busy with the business of living to really care one way or the other.

you see, i do get it. i understand the dangers of violent fanaticism and i've noticed that disease isn't restricted to the realm of religion. i understand the importance of exploring the nature of reality to the best of our abilities and constantly questioning "accepted truths", but that can't be all there is to this life. mixed in with that struggle is humanity's basic desire for a sense of structure to the universe and the simple hope for some natural justice, something that balances out the atrocities we see every day. these needs are filled for the vast majority by the religious experience and attacking them for their hope seems a petty pursuit. the masses really aren't all that concerned with quasars, black holes, evolutionary theory or whether alternate dimensions exist. the restless mob merely wants to feel that the struggle that is their lives isn't completely in vain and that there might just be some point to it all. it's all a relatively harmless bit of naivete.

Click to expand...

Relatively harmless as compared to what? You seem to be dismissing one of the most asinine, destructive and counter productive concepts of modern times in favor of pity. Interest in Quasars, black holes, ect (science) is what has furthered us as an intelligent race while religion by in large serves to hold us back and exploit. I don't think anyone is attacking them because of hope, or even their erroneous conclusions, but their tendency to push their views onto others, judge and condemn those who do not agree, all while calling nonbelievers unenlightened. I think it is thier defense of invalid logic, inaccurate history and down right lies. I think it is their discouragement of doubt and promotion of ignorance. From the little girl who is denied medical treatment in favor of prayer to the infidel who just lost his head, I would be curious to see the context which makes religion relatively harmless.

i doubt you will ever understand that abusing men and women of faith is futile and even counter-productive. after all, there is no way to disprove the underpinnings of their belief. despite your fervor, you are incapable of disproving the existence of their gods. you may chip away at some minor articles of faith, but they will remain unashamed because few ever could claim a complete understanding of the minds of their gods and it will all be considered simple misunderstanding of god's will.

Click to expand...

Well I don't agree with abusing anyone, and I suppose that is a subjective term. It is not our place to disprove claims. The burden of proof falls to the party making the claim. We have no obligation to respect a claim which, aside from seeming ridiculous and self serving to begin with, holds no evidential merit. If I reject this claim it is an act that religous people themselves conduct on a daily basis when they reject all religious claims but their own. If I speakout about this inconsistency and how it leads me to conclude that religious claims are stupid, is that abuse?

Heisenberg said:

Relatively harmless as compared to what? You seem to be dismissing one of the most asinine, destructive and counter productive concepts of modern times in favor of pity. Interest in Quasars, black holes, etc. (science) is what has furthered us as an intelligent race while religion by in large serves to hold us back and exploit.

Click to expand...

to begin with, you are confusing empathy with pity. a common enough error, but that still does not excuse it. while i can understand and even feel a bit of that need for the order and purpose that religion provides, i certainly don't feel sorry for their plight, as the term "pity" implies. that need is an integral part of humanity and how we go about filling that void is a matter of choice. some (most) find some spiritual crutch in religious dogma. many others depend on intellect or secular authority to help them find their way or perhaps to lead them by the nose. others still never find any socially acceptable means of filling that need and either depend solely on their own internal compass or simply go mad. personally, i am rather disgusted by either of the first two options. even madness is preferable to being just another sheep, blindly following the example of one's betters.

secondly, you place far too much of the onus for man's woes upon the shoulders of religious philosophies. as is typical, you also choose to ignore what good is done in the name of those philosophies. it should be remembered that at the root of almost every religion is the need to create or preserve an orderly and enduring society. the laws provided by these religions are not arbitrary, but designed to enhance and expand the communities they service. that these laws are couched in terms of superstition merely reflects the ignorance of the rabble they are designed to appeal to. where the state depends on the threat of violence to curb mankind's baser instincts, the church uses the threat of divine retribution to the same end. just as nations may raise up leaders that bend the best intentions of the people to evil aims, so too may the teachings of even the most altruistic religions be perverted by their leaders.

finally, your false sense of scientific superiority seems almost as inflated as pad's. though expanding man's intellectual boundaries is certainly a worthwhile endeavor, the morality that religions have helped shape over our history is as much, if not more, of a necessity for the continuation of our species. our science may tell us what we can or cannot do, but intellect alone does not provide the answer to whether or not we should do it. what you consider "holding us back" might better be considered a check on the headlong rush toward oblivion that a blind obedience to science could so easily drive us toward.

as for abuse and the burden of proof, no one is demanding you prove or disprove anything. you are the only ones obsessed with the idea that there must be something concrete behind the belief of the faithful. the essence of faith is that it demands no proof and that is the choice of those who hold to religion. while you fuss and bother over details, the followers of the world's religions are content in their fairy tales. that y'all insist on calling them names and vilifying their way of life could most certainly be considered abuse, an abuse of the most vindictive and petty kind.

i think you should focus more on what you are FOR, instead of what you are AGAINST

You know what else is stupid? RACISM and PREJUDICE!

undertheice said:

to begin with, you are confusing empathy with pity. a common enough error, but that still does not excuse it. while i can understand and even feel a bit of that need for the order and purpose that religion provides, i certainly don't feel sorry for their plight, as the term "pity" implies. that need is an integral part of humanity and how we go about filling that void is a matter of choice. some (most) find some spiritual crutch in religious dogma. many others depend on intellect or secular authority to help them find their way or perhaps to lead them by the nose. others still never find any socially acceptable means of filling that need and either depend solely on their own internal compass or simply go mad. personally, i am rather disgusted by either of the first two options. even madness is preferable to being just another sheep, blindly following the example of one's betters.

Click to expand...

I believe in a systematic and careful way of considering reality. I believe in being consistent, even when the method leads in a direction I do not like. I make no excuses for others who choose comfort over truth, even if I understand it. At the same time, I don't agree with name calling. I find most people are capable of both dumb and clever ideas depending on the situation. It is the claims and conclusions of religion, and the subsequent acts carried out because of those conclusions that I find to be stupid. People are just people.

undertheice said:

secondly, you place far too much of the onus for man's woes upon the shoulders of religious philosophies. as is typical, you also choose to ignore what good is done in the name of those philosophies. it should be remembered that at the root of almost every religion is the need to create or preserve an orderly and enduring society. the laws provided by these religions are not arbitrary, but designed to enhance and expand the communities they service. that these laws are couched in terms of superstition merely reflects the ignorance of the rabble they are designed to appeal to. where the state depends on the threat of violence to curb mankind's baser instincts, the church uses the threat of divine retribution to the same end. just as nations may raise up leaders that bend the best intentions of the people to evil aims, so too may the teachings of even the most altruistic religions be perverted by their leaders.

Click to expand...

No end justifies the means of deceit.

undertheice said:

finally, your false sense of scientific superiority seems almost as inflated as pad's. though expanding man's intellectual boundaries is certainly a worthwhile endeavor, the morality that religions have helped shape over our history is as much, if not more, of a necessity for the continuation of our species. our science may tell us what we can or cannot do, but intellect alone does not provide the answer to whether or not we should do it. what you consider "holding us back" might better be considered a check on the headlong rush toward oblivion that a blind obedience to science could so easily drive us toward.

Click to expand...

Science is not an endeavor to expand man's intellectual boundaries. Science is a systematic way of carefully and thoroughly observing nature while using consistent logic to evaluate the results. If we depended solely on science to shape our intellect we would be in trouble. It may be true that religion helps shape morality, but I wonder, do we see a higher rate of amoral acts among atheists? Is morality absent or diminished in those not threatened with holy retribution? Does religion not offer, in a great many circumstances, justification for committing amoral acts? Do you consider promotion and exploitation of delusion to be moral?

undertheice said:

as for abuse and the burden of proof, no one is demanding you prove or disprove anything. you are the only ones obsessed with the idea that there must be something concrete behind the belief of the faithful. the essence of faith is that it demands no proof and that is the choice of those who hold to religion. while you fuss and bother over details, the followers of the world's religions are content in their fairy tales. that y'all insist on calling them names and vilifying their way of life could most certainly be considered abuse, an abuse of the most vindictive and petty kind.

Click to expand...

Religious endeavors are predicated on the conclusion that god is real. It is only reasonable to require evidence for such extraordinary claims, especially when important decisions are influenced by these claims. Faith offers a way to hold this conclusion despite it being counter intuitive and lacking of evidence; a perfect counter to cognitive dissonance. I feel no need for name calling because of this. The frustration doesn't come until I am criticized for dismissing these claims, at which point I feel the need to speak out.

They ARE kept as slaves by the social service systems. Mothers Allowance, Welfare, Disablilty etc. These people are slaves to the government check. Not realizing that they are being held back by that little hand out. Pathetic really. You can make more working part time at a Mac's store than what you get on welfare.

Padawanbater2 said:

Yes sir it is!

STUPID PEOPLE ARE AN ABOMINATION!!

BEING STUPID IS UNNATURAL!!

STUPID PEOPLE SHOULD BE KEPT AS SLAVES!! (they're too stupid to understand freedom anyway!)

Lmao

Click to expand...

carl.burnette said:

They ARE kept as slaves by the social service systems. Mothers Allowance, Welfare, Disablilty etc. These people are slaves to the government check. Not realizing that they are being held back by that little hand out. Pathetic really. You can make more working part time at a Mac's store than what you get on welfare.

Click to expand...

You seem to be saying, all poor and disabled people are stupid. I have known people who went on welfare long enough to find another job and happily dropped it. Sometimes the reality is, you want to eat. And since when do slaves get hand outs? Don't slaves perform work without compensation? You are claiming these people receive compensation without work, which is the opposite of slave.

If your point is that it's stupid to choose welfare over employment because you think it gets you ahead financially, then I guess I agree. But that seems like a pretty obvious and narrow point, and a half-baked way of expressing it.

carl.burnette said:

They ARE kept as slaves by the social service systems. Mothers Allowance, Welfare, Disablilty etc. These people are slaves to the government check. Not realizing that they are being held back by that little hand out. Pathetic really. You can make more working part time at a Mac's store than what you get on welfare.

Click to expand...

As Heisenberg said, if your point is that its dumb to try to stay on welfare just so you dont have to work, then your right.

But before you go and start pegging all welfare, foodstamp, wic, and other assistance program beneficiaries, i would recommend doing a little research first. I have been on damn near all of them at some point or another in my life, though only as a child since my parents werent the greatest. But that being said, they werent the worst either. My dad tried repeatedly to get jobs, none of which ever lasted, and the ones that did were not great paying. My mother, well someone had to watch the kids right? People need to eat. The bottom line is, for every 1 person that is taking advantage of the system, there are probably ten others that truly need it. You cant let children and families starve just because you feel your 'enabling' them. If we cut people off because we felt that way, for everyone we 'enabled', we would 'disable' many many more. If that were the case, then you thought our Financial gaps were big now? Try everyone who wasn't a millionaire needing welfare. Thats where it would be if we could just say 'no, my taxes shouldn't go to them, it just enables them'.

Frankly, most of this comes from racism and poor understanding of today's economy. All it takes is one good look at Detroits "Work for Welfare' program to understand that shit like that does FAR more harm than good.

KlosetKing said:

As Heisenberg said, if your point is that its dumb to try to stay on welfare just so you dont have to work, then your right.

But before you go and start pegging all welfare, foodstamp, wic, and other assistance program beneficiaries, i would recommend doing a little research first. I have been on damn near all of them at some point or another in my life, though only as a child since my parents werent the greatest. But that being said, they werent the worst either. My dad tried repeatedly to get jobs, none of which ever lasted, and the ones that did were not great paying. My mother, well someone had to watch the kids right? People need to eat. The bottom line is, for every 1 person that is taking advantage of the system, there are probably ten others that truly need it. You cant let children and families starve just because you feel your 'enabling' them. If we cut people off because we felt that way, for everyone we 'enabled', we would 'disable' many many more. If that were the case, then you thought our Financial gaps were big now? Try everyone who wasn't a millionaire needing welfare. Thats where it would be if we could just say 'no, my taxes shouldn't go to them, it just enables them'.

Frankly, most of this comes from racism and poor understanding of today's economy. All it takes is one good look at Detroits "Work for Welfare' program to understand that shit like that does FAR more harm than good.

Click to expand...

Not to mention that the lions share of welfare goes to corporations, and not poor people.

Heisenberg said:

Not to mention that the lions share of welfare goes to corporations, and not poor people.

Click to expand...

Thats an excellent read! Thanks for linking that. Notice, 1998. Not too much has changed since then, except the poor are poorer of course.

does this mean i can leave the hood lol.