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az2000 said:

GN is in the process of replacing their lights with a new model based on their "Rebel" module (which has been an upgrade.).



There are a few brands which strike me as hype-based and over-priced. That's one of them. They don't mention their spectrum, ratio. You can't objectively compare what you're being asked to "feed" your plants. All you have is grow journals of owners who are happy. But, that's subjective. There are grow journals of TopLED owners who are happy too. And, there is the psychological factor known as "emotional investment." When someone pays a premium based on verbiage like "it will make your teeth whiter, breath fresher and get you more girls" they're more likely to believe they're experiencing the "magic" because... they paid so much for it.

The only reason an LED company won't provide their spectrum/ratio is marketing hype (or, hide the fact that it's roughly the same as someone else's light for half the price.). They'll say it's "proprietary information which competitors would kill for." But, any competitor who wants the spectrum that badly could buy a light and inspect it with a spectrometer. All they do by keeping the light secret is prevent you (the average consumer) from knowing.

$850 is a serious investment. Lights are shifting toward whiter light. Grow Northern has added white to their light twice. I don't think I'd like the feeling of investing so much money in a light like Pro-Grow or Cali Lightworks and be unable to objectively compare my results to the results of other lights which publish their spectra. In a year or two, how would I be able to determine more white is better when I don't know what my "secret sauce" light has?

That's why, even though TopLED engages in the "secret" practice too, at least it's not a fortune tied up in the light. $200-$300 and move on. The prospect of replacing it in 2 years won't be as difficult.

One other thing to consider, if you have one single large light for your tent, if that light fails it would be more catastrophic than having 3-4 smaller lights where one fails. It's more expensive buying more smaller lights. But, failure is a "when, not if" proposition. When it happens, you'll appreciate the flexibility much more than if you spent the money on one of the over-priced "secret sauce" lights.

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Some good info thanks...spot on about the marketing hype. Hydro hut don't mention the spectrum but because they get good reviews I thought they'd be worth a look at. So are the spectrum details even kept from paying customer's? its true then how can you make sound judgement in future comparisons etc. I'm glad to hear GN are upgrading their models, do you know how long before they're available? I can't start growing until Sept anyway so I can wait a bit

az2000 said:

Advanced Diamond 200: $545
Mars 400: $206

That's more than 100% price increase for what appears to be 20% more umol at the center?

I like Diamond's wider spectrum. But, the ratio appears to be a "secret."

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The thing is that 2r:1b could be the same as 1r:1b...depending on the output of each chip, based on drive currents as well. So the thing that actually tells you the spectrum is the spectral chart...which was presented in that link for both lights. And it showed what their "secret" is...and it's better than topLED spectrum, whether advanced tells how they made it or not. The end result(the final spectrum) is all that matters and can't be a secret if you have access to a spectral chart.

Zaycor said:

Hydro hut don't mention the spectrum but because they get good reviews I thought they'd be worth a look at. So are the spectrum details even kept from paying customer's?

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The learning curve with LEDs is steep. I think there is a tendency among newbies to LEDs that "time is money" and it's worth it to spend money on an expensive light with good reviews rather than spend a lot of time quibbling over a few different lights to save $500.

That's not a bad choice. But, if you have time before you begin growing, you have the luxury to process more info.

I'm sure owners of expensive lights have good results. But, causation is difficult to pinpoint. For example, paying a premium for a light's glowing pitch could be an indication of the buyer's motivation to obtain those results. That motivation will also be manifested in their care in other areas of growing.

Ultimately, there are good reviews for less expensive lights, even those with bad (scammy) reputations like JoyHydro and Lush/Kushington. The only objective criteria is factual, such as: spectrum/ratio, quality of components, reflector angle (penetration), warranty length, proximity of warranty service.

So, those are the first things I look for. However, price is also a factor. For example, ToLED's a little light on details, doesn't use the best components, provides warranty service offshore. That starts to look like a good value at the price. At least a reasonable tradeoff compared to resellers selling the same thing at a premium.

Regarding whether HydroHut releases their spectrum info to paying customers, I doubt it. If they'd do that, they might as well publish it with their specs because people would discuss it on forums anyway.

You could call and ask them. I had that conversation with Cali Lightworks and it was the kind of answer I expected if hype was their selling point.

Zaycor said:

its true then how can you make sound judgement in future comparisons etc. I'm glad to hear GN are upgrading their models, do you know how long before they're available? I can't start growing until Sept anyway so I can wait a bit

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GN has a vendor forum on another site. They said they expected the new models to be available in June.

Earlier I mentioned the benefits of getting fewer smaller lights. Another benefit is that you don't have to buy into a single brand. You could get an A51 RW-75, GN 4-spot and a TopLED 48x3 reflector (or a custom spectrum Cidly on Alibaba, or a higher-quality custom spectrum from "buildmyled." You could get a feel for a few companies/designs/spectrum. Judge how A51's better components compare to chinese stuff. And how spectrum compare (assuming you choose a light that publishes its spectrum and ratio).

One other thing, if you get a light that publishes its spectrum but not the ratio (TopLED, Advanced Diamond, etc.), you can view the light with appropriate shading/protection and count the colors. In other words, it's possible to identify a light's ratio of colors if you know the colors used. (Which adds to the weirdness of companies like TopLED and Cali Lightworks not publishing their ratio because it's a "secret."). The difference between red and deep red is visibly apparent with enough shading (like welding goggles and UV blocking). A light like Advanced Diamond's with more bands (colors of closer wavelengths), it may not be as possible.

Greengenes707 said:

The thing is that 2r:1b could be the same as 1r:1b...depending on the output of each chip, based on drive currents as well. So the thing that actually tells you the spectrum is the spectral chart...

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Yes, I agree. However, I'm not sure we can trust a vendor supplied spectral chart. For example, I've read that California Lightworks provides PAR in "adjusted" terms, which effectively doubles the values over "unadjusted" terms.

I guess the same could be said that we can't trust a vendor's published spectrum and ratio (if they publish it).

I interpreted the difference in Advanced's spectral chart as due to their greater number of bands. But, you're right, it could also be differences in their source of LEDs.

This is one thing I like about A51. Part numbers, everything is out there. It would be nice if there was a standardized way to compare LEDs, similar to the use of spectra charts by HID bulb manufacturers.

Until then, one of the more easily obtainable information is spectrum/ratio. It seems pointless not to publish it because it's not a "secret." Once a light ships, a competitor who'd like to have it can use a spectrometer to discover it. All it does is keep the consumer ignorant. When I see premium prices attached to that lack of information, it starts to look like buying on speculation. The hype of feeling you're getting something special that can't be described in objective terms.

az2000 said:

The learning curve with LEDs is steep. I think there is a tendency among newbies to LEDs that "time is money" and it's worth it to spend money on an expensive light with good reviews rather than spend a lot of time quibbling over a few different lights to save $500.

That's not a bad choice. But, if you have time before you begin growing, you have the luxury to process more info.

I'm sure owners of expensive lights have good results. But, causation is difficult to pinpoint. For example, paying a premium for a light's glowing pitch could be an indication of the buyer's motivation to obtain those results. That motivation will also be manifested in their care in other areas of growing.

Ultimately, there are good reviews for less expensive lights, even those with bad (scammy) reputations like JoyHydro and Lush/Kushington. The only objective criteria is factual, such as: spectrum/ratio, quality of components, reflector angle (penetration), warranty length, proximity of warranty service.

So, those are the first things I look for. However, price is also a factor. For example, ToLED's a little light on details, doesn't use the best components, provides warranty service offshore. That starts to look like a good value at the price. At least a reasonable tradeoff compared to resellers selling the same thing at a premium.

Regarding whether HydroHut releases their spectrum info to paying customers, I doubt it. If they'd do that, they might as well publish it with their specs because people would discuss it on forums anyway.

You could call and ask them. I had that conversation with Cali Lightworks and it was the kind of answer I expected if hype was their selling point.



GN has a vendor forum on another site. They said they expected the new models to be available in June.

Earlier I mentioned the benefits of getting fewer smaller lights. Another benefit is that you don't have to buy into a single brand. You could get an A51 RW-75, GN 4-spot and a TopLED 48x3 reflector (or a custom spectrum Cidly on Alibaba, or a higher-quality custom spectrum from "buildmyled." You could get a feel for a few companies/designs/spectrum. Judge how A51's better components compare to chinese stuff. And how spectrum compare (assuming you choose a light that publishes its spectrum and ratio).

One other thing, if you get a light that publishes its spectrum but not the ratio (TopLED, Advanced Diamond, etc.), you can view the light with appropriate shading/protection and count the colors. In other words, it's possible to identify a light's ratio of colors if you know the colors used. (Which adds to the weirdness of companies like TopLED and Cali Lightworks not publishing their ratio because it's a "secret."). The difference between red and deep red is visibly apparent with enough shading (like welding goggles and UV blocking). A light like Advanced Diamond's with more bands (colors of closer wavelengths), it may not be as possible.

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Thanks for the info Az, its been great...am I right in thinking that in summary for best results today (seed to harvest) I should look for; full spectrum only, white LEDS covering 420 to 750 nanometers - colours incl. blue for veg, yellow, amber & red for flower & all this light looks white to the eye but actually isn't? is this the same white you mentioned earlier with grow northern?

Zaycor said:

am I right in thinking that in summary for best results today (seed to harvest) I should look for; full spectrum only, white LEDS covering 420 to 750 nanometers - colours incl. blue for veg, yellow, amber & red for flower & all this light looks white to the eye but actually isn't? is this the same white you mentioned earlier with grow northern?

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In a 15 piece Cidly module, Grow Northern went from 1 white 6000k to 2 white 5700k per module. Then to 6 whites in a 30 piece Rebel module (basically 3 whites per 15 pieces). That's an increase from 6.7%, 13.3% to finally 20%.

So, they're not "out there" with white like some other brands. But, clearly they're part of a trend toward more white.

Not all whites are created the same. Epistar has a limited selection of white bands. Cree has a large variety. People like the guy at A51 chose a specific white, CRI combination that gave the spectral curve he felt was the best. Grow Northern uses 2 2700ks and 4 5000k.

Ironically, if light makers move to white it will be easier to have a "secret sauce." (The spectral curve can be more customized than narrow-band LEDs driven slightly differently.). One 2700k bulb won't be the same as another. (Which is why I like the way A51 and GN publish actual part numbers. But, if white becomes dominant, verifiable spectral charts will be the only way to make informed comparisons. That would be the best of both worlds. Sellers could maintain their proprietary secrets about how they created a certain curve. While, we could make objective decisions.).

If you want to learn more about this topic, search this site for all posts by user: Eraserhead. You'll get about 10 pages of posts. Start from the bottom of Page 10 and work backwards (to most current post). You'll learn alot. He's the A51 guy.

Another, less digestible discussion is https://www.rollitup.org/t/astir-grow-led-panel-project.563118 which led to the current generation of Astir's red/white lights.

I think I mentioned I had a "clone" of GN's rebel spectrum made by an Alibaba Cidly seller. $150 and free shipping. The risk is that their Epistar LEDs won't correlate well to GN's use of Phillips and Osram(?). For the money I thought it would be worth a try. Their avg white temp is 4233k, mine is 5116k due to the limited choices of Epistar's whites. (And, even if I could have chosen the same temps, the curve could be very different.).

I just remembered another seller doing white: Onyx. You could look at them as another example. Not sure if they're any good. (I thought I read a criticism that they're an aquarium light being sold as a grow light. Plastic lenses? Something like that.).

They use 3w diodes

So double the number of the 12" template

I do not know their actual draw

Cool cheers mate!

I could really use some help choosing an LED light for my grow.

I have a 2.5x2.5 grow tent, 5 feet tall and prefer LST and SCRoG to get the most out of my space. I don't know if I have lofty goals but I'd really like to pull 6+ oz in a harvest. I've been looking at the A51 XGS-190 but don't know if its enough to meet my goals and also don't know too much about the white spectrum they use vs the red and blue dominant panels. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

BDOGKush said:

I have a 2.5x2.5 grow tent, 5 feet tall and prefer LST and SCRoG to get the most out of my space. I don't know if I have lofty goals but I'd really like to pull 6+ oz in a harvest. I've been looking at the A51 XGS-190 but don't know if its enough to meet my goals and also don't know too much about the white spectrum they use vs the red and blue dominant panels. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

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I'm waiting for my XGS to be delivered. Why don't you think it's sufficient for 2.5x2.5? In full power (flower) it is spec'ed for that space.

Here is an XGS grow journal which just went into flower. In that specific post I linked to the author mentions two completed XGS grow journals. (You'll have to search for them. I wish I would have saved the links after I searched and found them.). The light produced very leafy, green, lush plants. I recently vegged under a veg-specific light which was largely white. It had the same effect compared to the customary purple "full spectrum" lights. So, I'm quite hopeful about the XGS.

az2000 said:

I'm waiting for my XGS to be delivered. Why don't you think it's sufficient for 2.5x2.5? In full power (flower) it is spec'ed for that space.

Here is an XGS grow journal which just went into flower. In that specific post I linked to the author mentions two completed XGS grow journals. (You'll have to search for them. I wish I would have saved the links after I searched and found them.). The light produced very leafy, green, lush plants. I recently vegged under a veg-specific light which was largely white. It had the same effect compared to the customary purple "full spectrum" lights. So, I'm quite hopeful about the XGS.

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I was more or less asking if I'd be able to hit my goal of 6+ oz in my size tent with an XGS. I don't know if 195W is a lot for an LED in that size space or if I'd require more. I saw a blueberry flowered under an XGS but the grower vegged it for 90 days under a different light.

BDOGKush said:

I was more or less asking if I'd be able to hit my goal of 6+ oz in my size tent with an XGS. I don't know if 195W is a lot for an LED in that size space or if I'd require more. I saw a blueberry flowered under an XGS but the grower vegged it for 90 days under a different light.

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1. Not all watts are the same. Some LEDs are more efficient than others. A51's goal is to go that direction. He feels his 195w is more than a Chinese import's 400w (or whatever, I forget exactly what he compared it to.).

2. In the post I linked to, the author (gk_skunky) referred to his grow too. One of them was vegged and flowered under the XGS. The thread itself shows plants vegging and entering flower.

But, yes, it's a new light. It's a bit of a gamble compared to lights that have been around for awhile.

BDOGKush said:

I was more or less asking if I'd be able to hit my goal of 6+ oz in my size tent with an XGS. I don't know if 195W is a lot for an LED in that size space or if I'd require more. I saw a blueberry flowered under an XGS but the grower vegged it for 90 days under a different light.

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The XGS is nice and I'm flowering with one right now.
If you're concerned about your yield, go with the RW-150, instead of the XGS.
The RW has deep red in the spectrum and more focused lenses that will help give you a bigger overall haul.
Don't be concerned with the 40W difference, the XGS is good, but the RW is better at flowering.

az2000 said:

1. Not all watts are the same. Some LEDs are more efficient than others. A51's goal is to go that direction. He feels his 195w is more than a Chinese import's 400w (or whatever, I forget exactly what he compared it to.).

2. In the post I linked to, the author (gk_skunky) referred to his grow too. One of them was vegged and flowered under the XGS. The thread itself shows plants vegging and entering flower.

But, yes, it's a new light. It's a bit of a gamble compared to lights that have been around for awhile.

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Thanks, I checked the link out. They definitely look like very healthy/happy plants under that light and it doesn't scorch my eyes to look at like the typical purple light! I'm going to be borrowing a Spectra 400W LED for my current grow, a friend was kind enough to loan it to me to help get my grow up and going but I'll need to return it after my harvest. LED seems like the best way to go for my situation and also cheaper in the long term when you start calculating HPS bulb replacements.

Bad Karma said:

The XGS is nice and I'm flowering with one right now.
If you're concerned about your yield, go with the RW-150, instead of the XGS.
The RW has deep red in the spectrum and more focused lenses that will help give you a bigger overall haul.
Don't be concerned with the 40W difference, the XGS is good, but the RW is better at flowering.

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Thanks, I'll try to find some grows with the RW-150. If you were going to run one light, veg - flower, would you go with the XGS or the RW-150?

(I'm currently reading GKs grow journal where he used both lights in a DWC scrog)

I would go with the RW 150 panel, It is a proven spectra(CW/630nm) all the way back to the evo 1 days where a grower hit over 2gpw without a light mover.......if you believe it

Has anyone just used LED to supplement their grow rather than fully grow under LED? I have heard excellent things about supplementing HPS with LED and getting excellent results.

I have a grow cabinet that is 71-3/4 in. H x 48 in. W x 20-1/2 in. D

I am considering purchasing
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00C760FT6?pc_redir=1402718985&robot_redir=1

Because it has a veg and flower spectrum

Are there any other lights that do this? I am very new to LED
I have absolutely know idea what to do and these types of lights( both spectrums) seem no brainer.

Jason17 said:

I am considering purchasing
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00C760FT6?pc_redir=1402718985&robot_redir=1

Because it has a veg and flower spectrum

Are there any other lights that do this? I am very new to LED
I have absolutely know idea what to do and these types of lights( both spectrums) seem no brainer.

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Advanced Diamond series is a good (above average) light. However, it's not clear if that's what's being sold on Amazon. A lot of good lights are made in China from common components. Therefore, it's easy to have a similar looking light made and sell it with a similar (rip-off) name. There are some companies around with really bad reputations for charging exorbatant sums for what you can receive more directly from China.

In this case, the DS-200 on Amazon refers to the "Platinum Series." I can't find the word "Platinum" on AdvancedLED's web site. And, they sell it for $370 compared to Advanced's $545. That seems suspicious. If I were you, I'd call Advanced and ask them if those are their lights.

For your space, you need two DS-100 lights. This will fill your space better, give you more flexibility in light height, and when (not if) a light fails, you won't go totally dark.

You said you're new to LEDs. If you're on a budget I'd recommend TopLED's 3w "reflector" series. It has switchable veg/flower. They seem to be a pretty good source for Chinese lights. It's LG's "factory outlet" so you're not dealing with scammy resellers like JoyHydro or HydroGrowLED. TopLED has a public support forum at another site. So, if you had trouble, at least the community's eyes would be on it. They also have a 3-year warranty which is pretty good. And, from what I could tell from the community on their forum is that it's very rare circumstances that require the light to be shipped back to China. It sounded like 95% of the time they send you replacement parts -- and will sell replacement parts after the warranty.

The downside to TopLED is that their warranty contains extortionary language, if you say anything negative about their lights they'll withhold warranty service. And, they don't reveal their spectrum/ratio. Grow lights seem to be moving more toward white light. So, it's nice to know what you're feeding your plants (in terms of light spectrum, intensity) so you could make objective decisions about how another light might stack up.

If you're not on a budget, be careful getting suck into high-priced hype-based lights. Things like "proprietary light blend." If they won't tell you their spectrum and ratio, I'd be concerned that they're selling "secret sauce," not something you as a consumer can objectively evaluate.

I like how Area 51 publishes even the LED part numbers they use. There's also Grow Northern, Astir, BuildMyLED, Onyx, (Bysen, another factory outlet for Beisen factory?). They all seem to be fairly transparent.

Just be careful because, IMO, much of the LED market is treacherous. Either cheap chinese lights sold for more than you can buy direct. Or, expensive lights sold like a "male enhancement" (Extendz) supplement. Paying for marketing and "secret sauce" rather than objective things like verifiable light spectrum, warranty, quality of materials, etc.

Advanced Diamond's definitely a good light. It's more "full spectrum" because it has more bands than the typical blurple (blue/purple) light. After studying this topic, I'm currently inclined to support companies that are more transparent like A51 (which also has a lifetime warranty and ability to upgrade your light as LED technology evolves). So, I'd either go that way, or direct from China. I'd be very careful with much of the stuff in between.

eastcoastmo said:

Sorry, I should ask you PetFlora...do you know how many watts are in the 24" panels?
Cheers mate

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The BML is 36" x 36". Won't fit in your wardrobe.
http://www.bmlhorticulture.com/content/files/BML_Horticulture_SPYDR_600_LED_Spec_Sheet_Rev_01222014.pdf

For anyone that wants to know. I saw someone post numbers on one of the threads here about 2x A51 75s being a littler better (minus a little intensity) than a single 155. Here's what Jeff had to say:

"2 of the 75s will equal exactly 1 of the 150s. The difference between using 2x 75s vs. 1x 150, you get better and more uniform coverage, but give up a few inches of penetration, it's a great trade-off really.

If the 150 had the same size housing case as the 75, the PAR would be exactly double. Being that the 150 is double the size of the 75, the PAR is spread out more. If you put 2x 75s right next to each other, the PAR, coverage and penetration will be identical to the 150.

I'd always choose multiple 75s over a single 150.

Best Regards,
Jeff"