I just filled out my mail ballot and I voted ___ on PROP 19!

I think if prop 19 passes it's going to lead to the rise of other drugs..
The only reason y young ppl use weed it's because it's illegal so if it gets legal all the young ppl r gonna wanna try illegal drugs instead if legal ones..
But that's jus my two cents

Watched your video Emptywords. While it sounds factual, it is nothing more than opinion.

Zerox1215 said:

I think if prop 19 passes it's going to lead to the rise of other drugs..
The only reason y young ppl use weed it's because it's illegal so if it gets legal all the young ppl r gonna wanna try illegal drugs instead if legal ones..
But that's jus my two cents

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that is very possible.

budling357 said:

Watched your video Emptywords. While it sounds factual, it is nothing more than opinion.

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its not all opinion, there is facts behind it such as there is nothing that says anything about legalization. here is some of the facts hidden behind the bullshit.
i copied and pasted some stuff from a web page.

Prop. 19 claims to do two things for recreational cannabis consumers: allow possession of 1 oz. or less and cultivation in a 5’x5’ space. But read the initiative and you’ll see these rights are not guaranteed, and come with conditions...

For all of its good intentions, Prop. 19 seems destined to do the opposite of all it claims to do. Supporters want us to vote yes and ignore the details. But the devil is in the details, and those details will make us criminals even under legalization. Should we support an initiative that forces us to sacrifice the rights of our comrades in the medical marijuana movement for our “right” to pay thousands of dollars for tiny grows and “freedom” to buy only from the dealers who wrote the initiative? Should we vote in an initiative that creates more problems than it solves? And since “the world is watching,” is this the sort of precedent we want to set for the rest of the nation—“Legalize it, tax it beyond reason and feasibility, and make criminals out of those who can’t afford to pay”? Is a $15,000-tax on personal cultivation something we should unite in favor of? Or is this the very thing the marijuana movement should unite against?

-A good major point: Californians can already possess up to one ounce without getting arrested, without going to jail, without getting a criminal record, and without being excluded from federal student aid and other government programs. So, of Prop. 19’s two objectives, California has already independently achieved one.

A major selling point of the initiative is that it will keep people out of jail for marijuana. But the initiative actually creates more prohibitions than it eliminates, and much of what it would legalize are already not arrestable offenses. By creating prohibitions where there are none now and turning non-arrestable offenses into arrestable crimes, Prop. 19 could end up sending more people to jail for pot...
Misdemeanor marijuana possession arrests in California reached 61,388 in 2008—and under Prop. 19, those same people would still be arrested. That’s because this statistic does not refer to any arrest demographic that Prop. 19 would protect. This statistic refers to possession of more than one ounce, DUI-drugs, possession by minors and possession on school grounds—offenses that the initiative will not legalize. It does not refer to arrests for possession of one ounce or less, because marijuana is already decriminalized, and is not an arrestable offense. Therefore, the initiative would have no impact on reducing these arrests rates. Conversely, given that so many people toke in public—which Prop. 19 would prohibit—it could dramatically increase arrest rates. Prop. 19 will also take a very common and very public non-arrestable offense—sharing a joint among young people aged over 21 and under 21—and turn it into an arrestable offense—punishable by six months in jail and a $1,000 fine (a significant increase in punishment, considering that the current penalty for sharing marijuana between adults is only a $100 fine.) It’s difficult to see how the government would save on prison costs if the initiative merely shifts arrests from one demographic to another. Ironically, Prop. 19 would expand the pot war it’s supposed to end.

Planning on opening up a dispensary?
Currently, anyone with a Prop. 215 recommendation can legally provide marijuana. Under Prop. 19, however, only licensed vendors may distribute marijuana. Although specific licensing arrangements are left up to local governments, Oakland, birthplace of the initiative, has already set the precedent for what other cities will likely follow. Oakland’s licensing process for commercial vending is prohibitively expensive for ordinary citizens. A license costs $60,000 per year—not to mention the application process itself, which is so rigorous that even well-established, law-abiding dispensaries have been denied. Furthermore, Oakland has started a trend that every other city preparing for the possibility of Prop. 19 has adopted—capping the number of licensed dispensaries allowed to operate (in Oakland, that number is four. Conveniently, Richard Lee, the millionaire businessman behind the initiative, owns one of them). A commercial cultivation license is even more prohibitive. The application fee alone is $5,000, a license costs an astronomical $211,000 annually, and only six are allotted.

The initiative doesn’t mention decreasing the cost of cannabis among its goals, but it’s a widely held belief that legalization will result in lower prices. However, by restricting the availability of cannabis to licensed dispensaries—thereby severely limiting competition in the market—an unintended consequence could be an increase in the cost of marijuana.
AgraMed, the cannabis corporation that was recently awarded Oakland’s first commercial cultivation license, has already let the smoke out of the bong regarding how much marijuana could cost under Prop. 19. By AgraMed’s own estimation, in order to make their projected $59 million a year off 58 pounds per day, they would have to charge $175 per ounce wholesale—and that’s if they produced 58 pounds 365 days a year. If they produced that output only 5 days a week, that price would leap to $245 an ounce (about $3900 per pound)—wholesale. With shelf-prices often set at double the wholesale price—not to mention the compulsory tax estimated to range from $50-$70 tacked on to every ounce—the price of marijuana could potentially be higher (looks like about $500+ for an ounce) under Prop. 19 than in our current market, in which the price of a pound has fallen to $2,000, according to a National Public Radio report (a direct result of stiff competition, not its opposite).

Okay.. so you wont support these big businesses, you will just buy from your dealer then...
The initiative’s exact words—“prohibit and punish... the possession... of cannabis that was not obtained lawfully... from a person who is licensed or permitted to do so”—mean exactly this: It will be against the law to possess marijuana that was purchased anywhere other than a licensed dispensary—effectively making it illegal to buy from the black market, even though that is not against the law now. Believe it or not, it is not a crime to buy marijuana in California. Your dealer could get busted for selling it, but you couldn’t get busted for buying it. You can’t even get busted for having it as long as it’s one ounce or less. But if Prop. 19 passes, possessing marijuana you bought off your dealer would make you a criminal.

Then you will grow your own crop!
In anticipation of the initiative passing, the City of Rancho Cordova has proposed a tax on cannabis home-grown for personal use—be it recreational or medicinal. The city’s Personal Cannabis Cultivation Tax measure, which will join Prop. 19 on the Nov. 2 ballot, would impose an annual tax of $600 per square foot on indoor grows up to 25 square feet, and a $900-per-square-foot tax for anything larger. For the casual toker growing in the 5’x5’ space that Prop. 19 allows (3-6 plants), that calculates to $15,000 per year. A 10x10 space (6-12 plants), which you may need if your roommates want to grow, too, would cost $90,000 per year. Since Prop. 19 allows cities to regulate and control even medical marijuana cultivation—which they’re not allowed to do under Prop. 215—then for countless patients, this tax would make growing their own medicine impossible.
In addition to limiting grow space to 5’x5’, it requires that people cultivating outdoors must secure their plants from minors by keeping their grow space separately fenced (and 10 feet away from all other fences—so to grow legally, you must have a fenced cubicle in the middle of your backyard if anyone under 21 has access to it.) And if the branches of your plant extend beyond that 5’x5’ space, it becomes a public nuisance—subject to even more fines (in Riverside, for example, a public nuisance fine is $1,000 per day). Furthermore, Prop. 19 gives cities the power to require renters to get their landlord’s permission, and even building inspections, in order to grow—which landlords may be unwilling to give since it could subject them to forfeiture by the federal government.
How will your city legislate personal cultivation? Even if Prop. 19 becomes law, will you be able to afford to exercise your right to grow in your 5’x5’ space?


Consider the Marihuana Tax Act of 1937. It didn’t make marijuana illegal, but prohibited possession of marijuana without a special tax stamp—which the government never issued. So even though marijuana was legal, it was impossible to possess it legally. Prop. 19 would do the very same thing—make it “legal” for you to cultivate marijuana, yet allow cities to make it economically infeasible for anyone to actually be able to grow it. This isn’t legalization; this is back-door prohibition. Will you grow your own, even if you can’t afford to pay the taxes? Will you trade the felony of cultivation for the felony of tax evasion? Will you vote for Prop. 19 only to become a criminal?



Although 2012 will offer us a “full legalization” alternative with the California Cannabis Hemp and Health/Jack Herer Initiative, the more likely scenario is that if Prop. 19 passes, then by that time, big cannabis corporations will have all the money, power and influence necessary to thwart any challenge to their monopoly. What do you suppose are the chances of voting in an initiative like CCHH—that emphasizes individual freedom over corporations—after big cannabusiness just spent two years multiplying their millions legally under the monopoly Prop. 19 creates, keeping everyone else out of the market, and making it illegal for you to buy your weed from anyone but them? “If this is the case,” Soares concludes, “another proposition will only get on the ballot if a very independently wealthy cannabis activist can fund the proposition. And even if there is such a person, the extremely wealthy license holders will campaign with all their wealth and might against it.” This is not our only chance to vote yes to legalization. But it may be our only chance to vote no to the corporatization of cannabis...

-Dragonfly De La Luz
Full article found here: http://votetaxcannabis2010.blogspot.com/p/pandoras-box-of-unintended-consequences.html

What you just quoted is someones opinion/interpretation of prop19.

Read the full text of prop 19 (http://ag.ca.gov/cms_attachments/initiatives/pdfs/i821_initiative_09-0024_amdt_1-s.pdf), and see if you agree with the "analysis" provided by emptywords. I don't.

well its one hell of an interpretation and i have seen many lawyers say bad things about this and after watching the hempcon debate i dont see how anyone could believe a word the "vote yes" side says. do you actually see that this "could" go bad? and that you can wait untill 2012 for the California Cannabis Hemp and Health/Jack Herer Initiative. what is the rush? it seems you guys dont care and want whatever you can get asap, whether its shitty or not, and doesn't offer legalization and puts new laws such as making it illegal to smoke with or around anyone 21 years of age and is a jail-able offense for up to 6 months which it says right in the bill. I am not even going to try anymore. i am not from California but i would way rather see the California Cannabis Hemp and Health/Jack Herer Initiative in 2012 be voted in which is for legalization instead of this big business shit that could go way wrong. everyone is too damn impatient and your impatience may come back to bite you in the ass. I guess really more than anything what upsets me the most is all the people that didn't even read or care to read prop19 and automatically voted yes because of "hear say". i dont even see why i am still trying to help change anyone's mind. its to late, everyone is already mailing in their ballots. if this prop fucks shit up than in 2012 when the California Cannabis Hemp and Health/Jack Herer Initiative tries to pass, it probably wont because the big business pot growers will throw out so much money against it to make it happen which is terrible. i have seen several people state that the main reason they are voting for this is because they don't know when or if another "real" legalization initiative will come out. well your answer is right here... 2012. and thats the only one that makes it legal. i am done though i will speak no more about this and sit back and wait and watch and see what happens if prop19 passes. happy voting...

Here is a link to Herer's initiative: http://www.jackherer.com/initiative.html. Apparently this initiative is planned to be placed on the 2012 ballot. There is no guarantee that this initiative will actually make it onto the ballot though because that requires gathering a bunch of signatures from CA voters.

There are parts of Herer's initiative that I like a lot, and there are parts that are without merit. For example, I like that Herer's initiative sets limits on the taxation of MJ, whereas P19 does not. This aspect of P19 could cause citizens problems down the road if municipalities decide to tax MJ out of existence, as Rancho Cordova is trying to do. RC might not be able to follow their plans for punitive taxation though, because their tax plan is itself a ballot initiative, hence it might not pass. It also strikes me that punitive taxation by local governments might not hold up in court because their intent is clearly to simply subvert P19, i.e. to simply maintain prohibition.

In summary, I like Herer's initiative but it is not on the ballot and there is no guarantee that it will actually get on the ballot in 2012. P19 is on the ballot already. There are aspects of P19 that I don't like, but it clearly better than the status quo.

I don't blame anybody for being skeptical of P19, but I believe it is a step forward.

desert dude said:

Here is a link to Herer's initiative: http://www.jackherer.com/initiative.html. Apparently this initiative is planned to be placed on the 2012 ballot. There is no guarantee that this initiative will actually make it onto the ballot though because that requires gathering a bunch of signatures from CA voters.

There are parts of Herer's initiative that I like a lot, and there are parts that are without merit. For example, I like that Herer's initiative sets limits on the taxation of MJ, whereas P19 does not. This aspect of P19 could cause citizens problems down the road if municipalities decide to tax MJ out of existence, as Rancho Cordova is trying to do. RC might not be able to follow their plans for punitive taxation though, because their tax plan is itself a ballot initiative, hence it might not pass. It also strikes me that punitive taxation by local governments might not hold up in court because their intent is clearly to simply subvert P19, i.e. to simply maintain prohibition.

In summary, I like Herer's initiative but it is not on the ballot and there is no guarantee that it will actually get on the ballot in 2012. P19 is on the ballot already. There are aspects of P19 that I don't like, but it clearly better than the status quo.

I don't blame anybody for being skeptical of P19, but I believe it is a step forward.

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well you are certainly entitled to your opinion as everyone else is also. i know the herer initiative is not guaranteed but who wouldn't sign for it to goto the ballot? I dont know though. i am just going to sit back and see what happens, there is so much that can happen when prop19 passes that its too much to keep up with.

EmptyWords is yet another 215 'patient' that is a "I have mine, get yours somewhere else" attitude carrier. Everyone on these boards that generally support weed that are anti-19 are card carriers...... every last one of em. Not that there's anything wrong with carrying a card, but there are many that don't, and to have the attitude that all they have to do is visit the "right" pain clinic or Dr for papers is BS. Cultivating and smoking marijuana are illegal, except for 215 patients. 19 simply aims to correct that. Let anyone that wants to to grow a personal garden. Who could possibly be against that?

Answer: Special interests....

In case anybody is interested, here is the current law regarding MJ in California, this is from NORML's web site http://norml.org/index.cfm?wtm_view=&Group_ID=4525:

Possession of 28.5 grams or less of marijuana is not an arrestable offense. As long as the offender can provide sufficient identification and promises to appear in court, the officer will not arrest the offender. Upon conviction of the misdemeanor charge the offender is subject to a fine of $100.



Possession of greater than 28.5 grams is punishable by up to six months in jail and a fine of up to $500.



Possession of 28.5 grams or less of marijuana on school grounds when the school is open is punishable by up to 10 days in jail and a $500 fine.



Possession of greater than 28.5 grams or more of marijuana in a school zone is punishable by up to six months in jail and a fine of up to $500.


The cultivation or processing of any amount of marijuana is punishable by up to sixteen months in state prison. There is an exception to the cultivation prohibition for patients or patients’ caregivers who possess or cultivate for personal use by the patient upon approval of a physician.


The laws regarding possession and cultivation of marijuana do not apply to patients or patients’ primary caregivers who possess or cultivate marijuana for the personal medical use of the patient, upon the recommendation or approval of a physician.


Selling marijuana in any amount is punishable by 2 – 4 years in the state prison. Giving away less than 28.5 grams is a misdemeanor and is punishable by a fine of up to $100.


Sale of marijuana to a minor is punishable by 3 – 5 years in prison.


For anyone under the age of 21 convicted of any of the above offenses, the state may suspend the offender’s driver’s license for up to one year.


Possession of paraphernalia is a civil fine of $200-$300 for the first offense and goes up to $5,000-$6,000 for a fifth or subsequent violation within a five-year periood.


A breakdown of CA county and local medical marijuana guidelines is available here: http://www.safeaccessnow.net/countyguidelines.htm.

The laws above remain in effect should prop 19 pass. ^^^^

with the exception of the first one possession of 28.5 grams or less which has been struck to a "civil infraction" and NOT a misdemeanor anymore. And the exception of cultivation of 5x5 or less, contingent upon if your local government will even allow any cultivation at all.

Any taxes that prop 19 creates are to be allocated to enforce not only the above laws, but all the new laws against marijuana that prop 19 creates including new felonies.

Prop 19 is a farce, a scam, a scandal, that not only adds more laws to prohibit marijuana but also allocates money to enforce existing marijuana laws.

and don't get caught smoking a joint if 19 passes as you will be ticketed for "illegal possession" aka smoking in public.


Vote NO..keep marijuana legal.

growermike666 said:

The laws above remain in effect should prop 19 pass. ^^^^

with the exception of the first one possession of 28.5 grams or less which has been struck to a "civil infraction" and NOT a misdemeanor anymore. And the exception of cultivation of 5x5 or less, contingent upon if your local government will even allow any cultivation at all.

Any taxes that prop 19 creates are to be allocated to enforce not only the above laws, but all the new laws against marijuana that prop 19 creates including new felonies.

Prop 19 is a farce, a scam, a scandal, that not only adds more laws to prohibit marijuana but also allocates money to enforce existing marijuana laws.

and don't get caught smoking a joint if 19 passes as you will be ticketed for "illegal possession" aka smoking in public.


Vote NO..keep marijuana legal.

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I'm tired of hearing about prop 19 creating new felonies.... You guys keep spreading that crap but not one of you will list these new infractions of the law. What new felonies are you blowing smoke about?

Prop 19 use to get me pissed off. But now it doesnt bother me. Prop 19 is going to pass, and there is nothing anyone can do to stop it. It is best to start preparing for the future than fear-mongering on the past. Your time would be better spent on writing a business plan, and figuring out how you are going survive in a competitive market. You can continue to amuse me, or you could stop wasting your time and get prepared.

Crypnotic said:

Prop 19 use to get me pissed off. But now it doesnt bother me. Prop 19 is going to pass, and there is nothing anyone can do to stop it. It is best to start preparing for the future than fear-mongering on the past. Your time would be better spent on writing a business plan, and figuring out how you are going survive in a competitive market. You can continue to amuse me, or you could stop wasting your time and get prepared.

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huh..you sound as if you are competitive. But, lets get one thing straight. Prop 19 is written so you CANT sell. What open market?
there is an open competitive market right now. Prop 19 was written to abolish that.

growermike666 said:

huh..you sound as if you are competitive. But, lets get one thing straight. Prop 19 is written so you CANT sell. What open market?
there is an open competitive market right now. Prop 19 was written to abolish that.

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How will P19 abolish an open competitive market?

desert dude said:

How will P19 abolish an open competitive market?

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because the bill itself prohibits sales expressively. Read the bill. I can't make this stuff up.

growermike666 said:

because the bill itself prohibits sales expressively. Read the bill. I can't make this stuff up.

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Have you read P19? Here is a quote regarding sales. This specifically authorizes sales:

Section 11301: Commercial Regulations and Controls

Notwithstanding any other provision of state or local law, a local government may adopt ordinances, regulations, or other acts having the force of law to control, license, regulate, permit or otherwise authorize, with conditions, the following:

1. cultivation, processing, distribution, the safe and secure transportation, sale anc possession for sale of cannabis, but only by persons and in amounts lawfully authorized;

1. retail sale of not more than one ounce per transaction, in licensed premises, to persons 21 years or older, for personal consumption and not for resale;

http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/Text_of_Proposition_19,_the_"Regulate,_Control_and_Tax_Cannabis_Act_of_2010"_(California)

growermike666 said:

huh..you sound as if you are competitive. But, lets get one thing straight. Prop 19 is written so you CANT sell. What open market?
there is an open competitive market right now. Prop 19 was written to abolish that.

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Your right Mike, for you there is no market. Ex-electrician turned legal drug dealer with no business skills is screwed. A guy throws seeds in dirt then just trys to sell it is a lost cause. It will be like brewing a micro breer in your tool shed then taking it up to the 7-11 in a five gallon bucket and getting the manager to buy it from you. Of course he isn't going to buy it from you. Where is your packaging? Whats your market strategy? Who does your beer appeal to? How does your product enhance the magers other products? How will your product make the manager money? How are you going to compete against that 25 year old kid who just graduated from Stanford with his MBA who is looking to cash in on one of the greatest new market opportunities in this country in the last twenty years? Yep, you dont think there will be a market, but that kid does know (and he doesnt even know how to grow weed yet lol.)

Look on the bright side Mike, at least you can prob. get your old job back at the local 419. Or you could start getting ready, because your soon to be competition is. Its your choice, bitch now and get your old job back, or try do something about it.

Serapis said:

Let anyone that wants to to grow a personal garden. Who could possibly be against that?

Answer: Special interests....

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I would hardly call 5x5 a garden. And I hate all this personal interest shit...I have no hidden agenda. I don't sell weed and do not profit from it in anyway. But I don't want to see it in the hands of the man for them to manipulate. People need to understand, we live in a corrupt world.