I Have A ? For You Religious People.
- Thread starter fairyweed
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PadawanBater
Guest
Total appeal to authority right there fish. I don't care at all what John O'Keef says about his personal experiences on reality, you know why? Because they don't mean anything to me. They are his own personal experiences, which has nothing at all to do with science. What if Mr. O'Keef believed he alone had the power to defeat gravity, since he's such an important astronomer at NASA, should we just all start believing we can defeat gravity too??
I know this is going to fly right over your head, again, for I think the third time now in this one thread alone... But nothing happened by chance. We are not here by chance, our existence isn't because of chance, our planet isn't because of chance, our consciousness isn't because of chance, I am not responding to your bullshit because of chance. You don't have any idea what the fucking word "chance" even means apparently. You have a "chance" you might win at the slots. There is a "chance" your kid will come out a boy and there's a "chance" it'll come out a girl. It's like saying a car happened by "chance".
The conclusion of the existence we perceive is the way it is because there IS NO OTHER WAY FOR IT TO BE! Meaning there IS NO CHANCE involved.
CrackerJax
New Member
Even if the big bang cannot be explained fully.... it doesn't necessitate inserting a mythical figure to fill the void. It's OK to not have the answer. You know more answers than those who came before you and ppl later on in time when we are all dust and long gone will have more answers than we do now.......
krustofskie
Well-Known Member
You going on about chance and odds again. Thought we had this conversation in another thread and I put it quite simply in that thread and you shut up. Now your on another thread saying the same old shit and being shown logical arguments against your BS but you will not waver. I congratulate you on your resolve but you are truely ignorant fish.
Any thing can come about by chance, because there is a chance. You say the odds are 1/1000000000000000000000000000000000000 you can add as many 0's onto it as you like but odds can always come around in the end. because your saying chance you must be admitting that it could have happened. It does not matter how small of a chance there is, its still a chance. When you bring in the amount of planets there are in the universe then the chances increase, another day passes by with another chance of it happening.
Keep quoting chance and odds, it just contradicts your point.
OregonMeds
Well-Known Member
I think the big bang theory is missing the whole boat. Odds are it's not about one big bang there is probably just a natural cycle to the universe as there is in all other things. A big bang follwed by a universe expanding for some unthinkable number of years which then slows and eventually contracts and crunches and then bangs again over and over. No actual beginning or end. With life randomly being created every place conditions are right. And as one dimension is expanding another is contracting, as one universe is being destroyed another is being created. Of course no god... Duh...
fish601
Active Member
Throw five decks of cards up in the air until they fall in one neat stack, sorted by suit and value. Then we can talk.
any odds more than 1 over 10 to the 50th power are considered an impossibility.
tebor
Well-Known Member
What about the Allegorical interpretations of Genesis?
For Christians in this school of thought (no protestatns though, but they're not true Christians anyway.) the dinosaur argument is useless.
From wiki:
Those who favor an allegorical interpretation of the story claim that its intent is to describe humankind's relationship to creation and the creator. Some Jews and Christians have long considered the creation account of Genesis as an allegory instead of as historical description, indeed much earlier than the development of modern science. Two notable examples are Augustine of Hippo (4th century) who, on theological grounds, argued that everything in the universe was created by God in the same instant, and not in six days as a plain account of Genesis would require [1]; and the 1st century Jewish scholar Philo of Alexandria, who wrote that it would be a mistake to think that creation happened in six days or in any determinate amount of time.
For Christians in this school of thought (no protestatns though, but they're not true Christians anyway.) the dinosaur argument is useless.
From wiki:
Those who favor an allegorical interpretation of the story claim that its intent is to describe humankind's relationship to creation and the creator. Some Jews and Christians have long considered the creation account of Genesis as an allegory instead of as historical description, indeed much earlier than the development of modern science. Two notable examples are Augustine of Hippo (4th century) who, on theological grounds, argued that everything in the universe was created by God in the same instant, and not in six days as a plain account of Genesis would require [1]; and the 1st century Jewish scholar Philo of Alexandria, who wrote that it would be a mistake to think that creation happened in six days or in any determinate amount of time.
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PadawanBater
Guest
fish, consider this...
Lets see how your Christian mind wraps around this one...
I'm going to show you exactly what "odds" mean and how they mean absolutely nothing when talking about things that have already happened. Calculating odds for something that has already happened is like picking the winning lottery numbers after the lottery...
I'm sitting in my backyard looking at my plants, just sitting there... A leaf lands on my knee from the tree above me. Do you have any idea the odds of that happening fish? Think about it. I'm 21 years old, what could the chance possibly be that I'd be in that exact spot, at that exact time? Further, what could the chances possibly be for that tree to have gone through countless life cycles to produce that single leaf that landed on my knee at that exact moment in time?
Another example...
What could the odds be that every single person on the planet is in their current position in time, at this exact moment, right now? There are over 6 billion people, each with free will and their own thoughts. What are the odds each person would be where they are?
I really hope you can see how these examples defeat your position of arguing from ''odds''. You cannot calculate the odds of something that has already happened and say "see, that's way too small, it's much too unlikely..". In both examples I provided, the odds are UNIMAGINABLY small, MUCH SMALLER than any odds you could come up with in opposition to the theory of evolution, yet both of them happen...
If this isn't clear enough for you to understand, tell me.
fish601
Active Member
nope it is is not clear..
I said
For some of these physical laws, a change of as little as 1 part in 1037
then i asked did that happen by chance? and you all just went off.....
here is where i got that info from http://www.godandscience.org/love/sld009.html
krustofskie
Well-Known Member
And thats an unbiased site for you information. Hard to take any notice of the info when they state that God has no need to have been created, since He exists either outside time (where cause and effect do not operate). What a load of crap answer.
DubsFan
Well-Known Member
Again, both sides require a great leap of faith to substantiate.
I'm willing to admit I'm struggling with my faith in God but everyone on here that sounds like pure evolutionists still cannot explain how everything began. They reference highly debatable science that no one can wrap their brains around (much like god). Something does not come from nothing.
CrackerJax says you cannot immediately say a mystical person created the universe just because we don't have the answer. But so many here claim that pure raw evolution (big bang moving forward) exists like Jack Daniels. That it was distilled and delivered. Please just explain to me how it all started.
The answer is you just don't know how it all started but are not willing to consider anything outside of pure science. Or we haven't found it yet.
We will never find out how to make something out of nothing because 1+1 still equals two on the sun.
Something from nothing doesn not exist. If you think it does then we live in an ant farm and we are all wrong.
I'm willing to admit I'm struggling with my faith in God but everyone on here that sounds like pure evolutionists still cannot explain how everything began. They reference highly debatable science that no one can wrap their brains around (much like god). Something does not come from nothing.
CrackerJax says you cannot immediately say a mystical person created the universe just because we don't have the answer. But so many here claim that pure raw evolution (big bang moving forward) exists like Jack Daniels. That it was distilled and delivered. Please just explain to me how it all started.
The answer is you just don't know how it all started but are not willing to consider anything outside of pure science. Or we haven't found it yet.
We will never find out how to make something out of nothing because 1+1 still equals two on the sun.
Something from nothing doesn not exist. If you think it does then we live in an ant farm and we are all wrong.
krustofskie
Well-Known Member
The big bang theory has holes in it, meaning we dont have all the answers yet, but it certaintly got a lot less holes in it than the religouse explinations.
At least with the big bang its open to being changed according to the data we have and will get further down the line, using logical means to come to a conclusion.
Religion changes its mind about things only when it suits them to try and control and some times apease the masses.
I feel most theories that religions try to dispute have room for God, its just the religions that claim to be the way to God are contradictory to the theories.
Green Cross
Well-Known Member
Being a Christian isn't about trying to be "Christ like" it's realizing that you're a sinner and accepting Christ as your savior.
Many Jews at that time recognized Him as their Messiah, but if you're not Jewish that has nothing to do with you.
"The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone; the LORD has done this, and it is marvellous in our eyes."
Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the scriptures: 'The very stone which the builders rejected has become the head of the corner; this was the Lords doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes'? Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a nation producing the fruits of it." When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he was speaking about them. (Matt. 21:38-45)
And they were right
DubsFan
Well-Known Member
Science hasn't changed? Really? The earth was flat at one time.
Less holes in it...
I know of no facts as to how something is created from nothing. Hate to keep beating that horse but it's a really big horse full of holes that nobody can explian.
Please explain.
Green Cross
Well-Known Member
The bible never said the world was flat science did
krustofskie
Well-Known Member
As I said science IS open to change, thats whats good about it, it measures up the information it has to come to a conclusion. When there is new information then it will re-evaluate. Religion is less changing and only seems to change to suit its own means. eg: the Pope now says young children that died before confirmation no longer go to purgatory but now go to heaven, a changed view because the masses didn't agree with it so to appease them and keep the flock the view was changed.
As for the whole of the big bang that everything appeared from noting, thats not the view of most. Most believe, and I say believe as it cant be truly prooven, that all matter has always existed and that the big bang has happend many times before and will happen again and again. When the universe has finished expanding it will contract to the point where the big bang will happen again.
Once again even with this there is room for "God" but it does contradict what religions tell us. Time to seperate the idea of "God" away from man made religions.
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PadawanBater
Guest
In the context of the discussion fish and I had, I was just explaining how odds don't really mean anything when trying to calculate the odds of things that have already happened. The smallest odds are meaningless if the event already happened, say there was a chance of 1 in 3 billion for some random event to happen...k, say it happened... that doesn't do anything to the odds, the odds stay the same. You can't look at the event, then calculate odds backwards... it doesn't make any sense. That's what he does with evolution, evolution happens, it's a verifiable fact, he admits micro evolution happens, then he sits there and says "but the odds against it are soooooooo small!"... as if taking both positions won't be pointed out...
It's not our responsibility to explain "how everything began". That has nothing to do with the theory of evolution. So I guess a more accurate description would be "big bangers" or something similar.. I'm a proud "big banger". lmao.. Anyway.. I do not know how everything began. I'm not going to sit here and lie and say I do. Where would that get me? I know it would get me nowhere... fast. Faster than actually not knowing... It's not a secret, and I fully admit it. That my friend is progress.
The science is difficult if you don't know the basics. Trust me if you spend enough time researching, reading and studying this stuff it's not that hard to grasp basic concepts. The biggest obstacle is ALWAYS a persons faith, because what you discover to be true about the reality we experience usually conflicts with what was thought to be true thousands of years ago to ancient man. Your books tell you specifically that anything that tries to "lead you away from your faith" is guided by evil intentions, or evil spirits, or satan himself... If they don't say that, they must imply it because a lot of the believers I come across seem to believe that. It's not that the information is difficult, it's that the way they learn is selective. It's unbelievably detremental to oneself to only absorb and actually learn the things your belief system tells you is OK to learn.
The big bang theory does not ever say "something came from nothing". Not at all. HUGE misconception. But what does Christianity, Judaism, Islam say about the creation of man? The creation of everything?.. They are the ones who are saying "something came from nothing" aren't they?
The big bang theory is easy to understand if you realize it's not 100% certain, just like I explained pretty much nothing is 100% certain. If you're looking for absolute certainty, you will never be satisfied. The concepts involved are difficult to understand sometimes because they involve things we've never experienced, no time, no space, etc.. Things that happened litterally in the beginning.. The laws say matter can't come from nothing, and matter cannot be destroyed, only changed. That holds true everywhere we've ever been or ever seen. Whose to say that our universe didn't come from some other universe? Or from a previous universe's big bang that expanded, ran it's course then contracted and is in the cycle again? Time is such a difficult thing to grasp for our human minds, do not let that limit your ability to think outside the box.
...and the absolute beauty of this one ladies and gentlemen... GC doesn't seem to get the irony in it...
Sir, the basic, uneducated human population of the world, you know, the ones who did not travel across oceans yet... the ones who were religious... were the ones saying the world was flat. It wasn't until science got involved that we discovered the world was round. Pull your head out, you're missing reality.