MEANGREEN69
Well-Known Member
LOL..sorry thread nazi, but the seed been planted. on with the nute reviews.
Hydro Nutrients Reviews
- Thread starter mpdegn
- Start date
LOL..sorry thread nazi, but the seed been planted. on with the nute reviews.
fatman7574
New Member
Common sense is to not waste your money on something others with more knowledge clearly explain to you and also show you in plain English is not special but simply a common fertilizer grosssly over priced. As for a simple recommendation based on choosing from just what is available from retailers and basing it upon the cost and the actual formulation and concentartions I would recommend the simple GH Flora series of Flora Gro, Flora Bloom and Flora Micro. I have said this many times in this forum. I do not normally repeat it everytime there is another started about nutrients.
I assume people read more than just their own threads. Second choice of the major mj manafacturers would be its equivalent. It just happen this means at a greater cost for its equivalents. The Dutch Master Two Part grow and the Two Part Bloom, and at an even greater cost AN's standard two part Grow, Bloom and Micro. These are all nearly identical. None are better, just marketed differently and with different retail prices.
As for all the supplements and foliar nutrients. In all respects except for the possible benefit of the foliar applied iron during the veg state with DM nutrients the foliar is over kill causing to much lushness. They are just not needed if the reservoirs are changed out regularly. Really. When people just added top off water to their reservoirs between reservoir changes and made changes every week to 10 days no supplements were needed nor were many even sold. They are not advances in mj nutrition science but merely half *ssed attempts at solving the many problems in recirculating reservoirs caused not changed out often enough and instead topping off with water AND more nutrients (IE the Lucas Method).
Look over these comparisons and tell me why you think Dutch Masters is better than either GH or AN.
Combining Dutch Master Gold Grow A and B (N-P-K)(Ca-Mg-S)(B-Cu-Fe-Mn-Mo-Zn)
(565-75-640) (570-75-25) (1-0.4-3-1.5-0.04-5)
Combining GH Flora Gro and Micro
(700-100-700) (500-50-33) (1-1-10-5-0.09-5)
AN Grow and Micro Combined
(600-100-600) (500-123-23) (10-1-8-3-0.09-3)
Combining Dutch Master Bloom A and B
(500-530-630) (230-158-120) (10-3-4-8-0-0.08-5)
Combining GH Flora Bloom and Micro
(500-500-500) (500-150-100) (10-1-8-3-0.09-5)
AN Bloom and Micro Combined
(400-500-400) (500-123-150) (1-1-8-3-0.09-3)
I assume people read more than just their own threads. Second choice of the major mj manafacturers would be its equivalent. It just happen this means at a greater cost for its equivalents. The Dutch Master Two Part grow and the Two Part Bloom, and at an even greater cost AN's standard two part Grow, Bloom and Micro. These are all nearly identical. None are better, just marketed differently and with different retail prices.
As for all the supplements and foliar nutrients. In all respects except for the possible benefit of the foliar applied iron during the veg state with DM nutrients the foliar is over kill causing to much lushness. They are just not needed if the reservoirs are changed out regularly. Really. When people just added top off water to their reservoirs between reservoir changes and made changes every week to 10 days no supplements were needed nor were many even sold. They are not advances in mj nutrition science but merely half *ssed attempts at solving the many problems in recirculating reservoirs caused not changed out often enough and instead topping off with water AND more nutrients (IE the Lucas Method).
Look over these comparisons and tell me why you think Dutch Masters is better than either GH or AN.
Combining Dutch Master Gold Grow A and B (N-P-K)(Ca-Mg-S)(B-Cu-Fe-Mn-Mo-Zn)
(565-75-640) (570-75-25) (1-0.4-3-1.5-0.04-5)
Combining GH Flora Gro and Micro
(700-100-700) (500-50-33) (1-1-10-5-0.09-5)
AN Grow and Micro Combined
(600-100-600) (500-123-23) (10-1-8-3-0.09-3)
Combining Dutch Master Bloom A and B
(500-530-630) (230-158-120) (10-3-4-8-0-0.08-5)
Combining GH Flora Bloom and Micro
(500-500-500) (500-150-100) (10-1-8-3-0.09-5)
AN Bloom and Micro Combined
(400-500-400) (500-123-150) (1-1-8-3-0.09-3)
fatman7574
New Member
Dude why must you swear and use vulgarities? I need prove nothing through incrimidating myself with photos dude. If you can not simply leran without photos that does not concern me. Buy a comic book grade mj growing book. Its your money.
Wow, at least you admit my posts are informative.
Learning is often painful to some Dude.
Dude, you will likely never see a photo I post as I do not post to open forum threads. I send photos only to known friends I can trust. I do not post to newbies or unknowns such as you. As a matter of fact I have not posted photos for anyone on this forum and likely never will. One term in prison is enough reason not to post photos again to any growing forums. My sense of self worth does not require your approval nor praise nor does my ego require me to impress others. I try to help others but some refuse to learn but instead just blabber and post incriminating photos so as to boost their egos.
fatman7574
New Member
I am not failing at anything Dude, it is you who is resorting to swearing and talking about fast food as you have no knowledge of nutrient chemistry or nutrient formulations in order to be able to actually hold a rational discussion.
GreenThumbSucker
Well-Known Member
He has answered that question in multiple threads. You should read more.
CLOSETGROWTH
Well-Known Member
Lucas.. Micro and Bloom.. about 15 bucks a quart 
GreenThumbSucker
Well-Known Member
Hey Einstein! Fatman doesnt mine the minerals from the earth, he buys them from a chemical supply house.
Talk about an epic fail of simple common sense....sheesh!! People are so intimidated by actual useful information. I have gleaned more usable information from the fatman over the last year than the rest of this forum combined.
CLOSETGROWTH
Well-Known Member
I gotta give Fatman alot of respect, since I have read just about all of his posts, and threads..
Although, I dont agree with everything he says.
But I will say this, he's no dummy..
I would feel better if he would prove his growing abilities, and post a few shots of his success.
I liked what he had to say about nute temps.. very interesting read.
Although, I dont agree with everything he says.
But I will say this, he's no dummy..
I would feel better if he would prove his growing abilities, and post a few shots of his success.
I liked what he had to say about nute temps.. very interesting read.
UrbanAerO
Active Member
Ill definetely check out the lucas formula, good info and I agree with you about AN, money hungry scamers, but with my garden I dont really have time or know where to aquire these ingredients. How does House and garden compare to AN? I have never seen a comparison with House and Garden and AN, Im sure all the AN comparisons are biased. I spend a lot of money on nutrients and would like to know which one is better. Untill I get to making my own I will buy nutrients, I may be a sucker but I still am able to afford it.
I love the roots Closetgrowth, already have my mothers in 5 gallon buckets with hydroton and holes dilled to drain, but hydroton is such a waste of money!
I love the roots Closetgrowth, already have my mothers in 5 gallon buckets with hydroton and holes dilled to drain, but hydroton is such a waste of money!
fatman7574
New Member
Or mix them from premeasured bags of salt for about $12 per gallon to include shipping costs.
fatman7574
New Member
Court records have 194 photos of a snmall growing op of 128 square feet, and a laboratory. However, giving out the state and court case number is jsut advertising my name. PLus you would either have to ask for them by evidence numbers and pay 50 cents per copy or fly here to see them. No I have not got copies. The prison "lost" all copies of my court document moving me from one prison to another. Between the trial and the appeal. Go figure. I will think about sending some more recent photos to Tree Farmer or Atomizer from the Pod Thread. However, I will ask them not to post the photos in the forum. Best I can do.
fatman7574
New Member
I would not buy any of the AN products other than the basic two part formulas. Even then only if I could not obtain GH or DM or some other najor brand. They really are closest enough to say they are the same. The above posted information shows that. You do have to really research non mj specific nutrients manafacurers such as the cheap brands for lawn and gardens such as Dyna-Gro as they use a lot of ammonium nitrogen or even urea which very often causes severe pH decline problems with indoor grows.Then just consider that you can buy the salts premeasured in seperatemarked bags. All you do is pour the salts into 1 gallon jgs therre fourths full of water, sahake and then fill to the top and shake. Not much work inorder to cut your cost by 75% or more. You do not get the pretty labels though.
Why do people always ssem to think one needs side by side growing comparisons. If the ingrediants are the same in near or very near the same proportions (ratios) they will perform the same no matter who puts their label on the bottle. IE a brands selling a fertilzer of 200-100-300-100-50-30- Ya da , ya da ya da will produce the same results as another brands 200-100-300-100-50-30- Ya da, ya da ya da fertilizer. Growers tend to get to caught up in brand names and marketing hype )Fta Miliie's bogus videos). You need to look at one good formulation that works for your system and parameters and mj strain. Then look at the brand names guranteed analysis and simply which brand provides the fertilizer with those levels you need the cheapest. I guranteed dry salts (even custom ordered) from manafacturers other than MJ specific suppliers will be the cheapest and AN will always be the most expensive.
You need to be more specific than just saying house and garden fertilizer.
Replace your hydroton with rubber mulch (rubber cubes). It will not absorb water, but it will also not hold mass amounts of fertilizer salts like hydroton. Plus they do not roll awys when you drop them, crush when you step on them, support alf gae growth, nor are the difficult to rinse or disinfect between grow. Just rinse with chlorox water.
Touchet
New Member
while me and the fatman dont seem to agree on everything eye to eye I would still like your opinion on suretogrow cubes.
http://www.suretogrow.com/
and since everyone else is stumped maybe you can offer an opinion here as well,
https://www.rollitup.org/nutrients/328902-touchets-liquid-light-challenge.html
http://www.suretogrow.com/
and since everyone else is stumped maybe you can offer an opinion here as well,
https://www.rollitup.org/nutrients/328902-touchets-liquid-light-challenge.html
fatman7574
New Member
Never used sure to grow cubes and i know no one involved in commercial growing who does. I simply use air atomized aero for clones. I used medium pressureaero before that, and low pressure aero before that. Prior to that I used a fine rounded silica sand and bar sprayers for cloning. I use the samesand for seed starts. It has been a long time since I have used absorbent media for anything.
Why bother the challege just does not matter. If you want lush growth and more Irion foliar spray. If you do not want lush growth that just blocks light and have no signs of iron deficiency whay bother with the foliar feeding. Th foliar feeding is no different then adding the same nutrients except it is force feeding nutrients that the palnt can eithet just uptal ke and needlesslystore orit can use up energy to transport it downthe palnts lenftgh and discharge them through the roots. foliar feeding is to provide nutrients that are hard to apply to fields (soil grown plants) once the plants is in friuit. This is not necessary with hydro wahere you can just add it to the nutrient water. where the plant can take iy up as it chooses. foliar feeding nutrients to hydro plants with a reservoir is jsut a =marketing scam to make larger profits.
I am not water that anyone but you are stumped.
sponger2004
Active Member
Fatman,
Is the ideal to provide nutrient solutions at ratios and concentrations identical to plant needs? Is there evidence of this? Is it cost-effective to make that our goal? I'd think that nutrient requirements among plants differ even among clones from the same mother. Add in RH, light, and temperature and the variables become exponential.
As an alternative hypothesis mightn't it be true that as long as individual nutrient ppms are contained within a range the plant will only uptake as much as it needs? If this were true all we'd need to do is mix the solution at ratios somewhere within the range, water the plant, and wash out the excess on the next watering, constantly keeping the medium within the correct range.
Is it even possible to know any of this stuff? What are the commercial guys doing? Are they constantly tweaking their formulas? I think I read you saying somewhere that you use 3-1-2 for flowering. If that's true, then you must think that different ratios during different stages of flowering is unnecessary. That would fly in the face of what a lot of nutrient companies are saying.
Is the ideal to provide nutrient solutions at ratios and concentrations identical to plant needs? Is there evidence of this? Is it cost-effective to make that our goal? I'd think that nutrient requirements among plants differ even among clones from the same mother. Add in RH, light, and temperature and the variables become exponential.
As an alternative hypothesis mightn't it be true that as long as individual nutrient ppms are contained within a range the plant will only uptake as much as it needs? If this were true all we'd need to do is mix the solution at ratios somewhere within the range, water the plant, and wash out the excess on the next watering, constantly keeping the medium within the correct range.
Is it even possible to know any of this stuff? What are the commercial guys doing? Are they constantly tweaking their formulas? I think I read you saying somewhere that you use 3-1-2 for flowering. If that's true, then you must think that different ratios during different stages of flowering is unnecessary. That would fly in the face of what a lot of nutrient companies are saying.
fatman7574
New Member
mj nutrient formulations are designed typically for growing mj plants with inert media and with recirculating reservoirs in mind. The nutrient ratios are purposely skewed to hopefully compensate for all the buffering and precipitation that takes place in recirculating reservoirs. There are other alleged hydroponic fertilizers designed for growing (hydroponically) in soil type medias. Ideally though they are designed for outdoor growing in soil type medias.
The only growing method where you can simply provide the plants nutrients at near to the ratio they are found in tissue samples is through growing in inert media with drain to waste. Even then you have to realize that plants take up and store nutrients beyond their needs so that they can use them at some later date when they might not be available for uptake. Quality aero systems with drain to waster for example are provided different ratios of nutrients then other growing methods and at much lower concentrations. There is no need to provide larger concentrations or extra of any fertilizer for buffering because the nutrient water is discarded after being sprayed on the roots a single time. There are few nutrients left in the water and very little water left to drain away.
Commercial growers of vegetables use tissue samples every time they change strains or seed suppliers. Some grow drain to waste. Easier, more efficient but more expensive some believe. Those using drain to waste actually test their nutrients every few days for levels of all but trace nutrients. Their additions are compared to tissue sample levels and starting ppm and adjustments are made to allow for the needs shown by the plants plus buffering needs. Trace nutrient needs are usually based more upon the plants appearance and growing performance.
In general a plants up takes only its needs and some more for storage. That varies in amounts but not much in ratios with changes in strains, temps, lighting, humidity, CO2 etc. How ever plants can easily take up more than its needs when the ratios are too far out of range or when the pH is to far from the optimal nutrient up take range. If plants only took up what they needed then their would be no need to worry about nitrogen burn or nutrient toxicity due to a high EC. These can both happen even with proper nutrient ratios. Are plants good at selectively up take of only what they need. No not that really. They are pretty good at realizing from their roots and nutrients they do not need. Nutrient selection by plants is mainly a pH driven selection process which is based upon the ratio of positive to negative charges of the water both in the reservoir and the plants roots moisture.
The only growing method where you can simply provide the plants nutrients at near to the ratio they are found in tissue samples is through growing in inert media with drain to waste. Even then you have to realize that plants take up and store nutrients beyond their needs so that they can use them at some later date when they might not be available for uptake. Quality aero systems with drain to waster for example are provided different ratios of nutrients then other growing methods and at much lower concentrations. There is no need to provide larger concentrations or extra of any fertilizer for buffering because the nutrient water is discarded after being sprayed on the roots a single time. There are few nutrients left in the water and very little water left to drain away.
Commercial growers of vegetables use tissue samples every time they change strains or seed suppliers. Some grow drain to waste. Easier, more efficient but more expensive some believe. Those using drain to waste actually test their nutrients every few days for levels of all but trace nutrients. Their additions are compared to tissue sample levels and starting ppm and adjustments are made to allow for the needs shown by the plants plus buffering needs. Trace nutrient needs are usually based more upon the plants appearance and growing performance.
In general a plants up takes only its needs and some more for storage. That varies in amounts but not much in ratios with changes in strains, temps, lighting, humidity, CO2 etc. How ever plants can easily take up more than its needs when the ratios are too far out of range or when the pH is to far from the optimal nutrient up take range. If plants only took up what they needed then their would be no need to worry about nitrogen burn or nutrient toxicity due to a high EC. These can both happen even with proper nutrient ratios. Are plants good at selectively up take of only what they need. No not that really. They are pretty good at realizing from their roots and nutrients they do not need. Nutrient selection by plants is mainly a pH driven selection process which is based upon the ratio of positive to negative charges of the water both in the reservoir and the plants roots moisture.
mpdegn
Well-Known Member
Fatman,
How do you feel about Holland's Secret? Would you say those are good hydro nutes? Here's a link:
http://www.ncwgs.com/grow_micro_bloom.php
You can find them all over the internet. I'm only using Micro and Bloom right now.
I have a 8ft sativa which just completely grew beyond expectations. The plant is huge. Can I continue using only Bloom and Micro until harvest? I've been flowering for almost 3 months now and I don't know if that's because sativas take longer or because I'm not using enough nutrients. Do bigger plants need higher nutrient ratios? The plant is also very close to the light, since it's so tall. It's not causing any burn, though. Does the proximity to the light make the plant think that it is still vegetating? It's definitely full of hairs but it just won't mature. The calyxes won't swell.
Thanks for your opinion man.
How do you feel about Holland's Secret? Would you say those are good hydro nutes? Here's a link:
http://www.ncwgs.com/grow_micro_bloom.php
You can find them all over the internet. I'm only using Micro and Bloom right now.
I have a 8ft sativa which just completely grew beyond expectations. The plant is huge. Can I continue using only Bloom and Micro until harvest? I've been flowering for almost 3 months now and I don't know if that's because sativas take longer or because I'm not using enough nutrients. Do bigger plants need higher nutrient ratios? The plant is also very close to the light, since it's so tall. It's not causing any burn, though. Does the proximity to the light make the plant think that it is still vegetating? It's definitely full of hairs but it just won't mature. The calyxes won't swell.
Thanks for your opinion man.
Attachments
sponger2004
Active Member
Thanks for the information, fatman.
fatman7574
New Member
It is pretty near the same nutrient formulation as the 2 Part formulations sold by GH, AN and Dutch Masters.
Combined with Micro the Grow formulation is:
N=700, P=100, K=900, Ca=500, Mg=0, S=200, B=20, Cu=0, Fe=10, Mn=0, Z=56.9, Mo=7.96
Combined with Micro the Bloom formulation is:
N=500, P=600, K=600, Ca=500, Mg=100, S=20, B=20, Cu=0, Fe=10, Mn=0, Z=56.9, Mo=7.96
Average with the exception of higher nitrogen for budding then Blooming, and for some reason a lack of the trace nutrients Manganese and Copper and strangely no Magnesiun in the veg formulation. I would add 100 grams of Magnesium to a 1 gallon bottle of a 100x concentrate of the Grow formula. IE 1 gram per diluted gallon of nutrients. The Molybdenum level is laso very high but it comes as a trace contaminant from one of their nutrients salts.
A deficiency of copper shows up as wilted and distorted foliage. I find it difficult to believe they left manganese out of their formulation. I have only one record on each of Holland Secret's formulations however none of their formulations show a presence of manganese. Manganese deficiency would apper as a dull grey appearance followed by yellowing of the newest leaves between the veins which usually stay green. If the price is good and your happy with its results I would simply just buy a small amount of Manganeses Sulfate on eBay. It would only require 1/4 ounce fora 1 gallon bottle of 100X concentrate fertilizer to obtain the recommended concentration of 5 ppm. One pound can be bought for $4 on ebay. http://cgi.ebay.com/Manganese-Sulfate-Powder-32-Mn-1-Pound-/270341419492?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3ef19ab1e4
Lkely the only way to spped up the budding is to provide more lighting. There is not a lot of intense light beyond 3 or 4 feet below the light. A sativa's bracts do not swell up as large as an Indica or Afghani. The bracts are the pod that the seed normally grows within. The calayxes are just the hairs. The easiest way to tell just how close your plants are to harvest is to use a mahnify glass and look at the shape and color of the resins. If the resins beads are still white and swollen and upright it is to early for harvest. You actualy want a resin bead that looks sorta exhausted and more amber to brown in color.