Huge leaves, super dense bushy Blue Dream

priestriver

Active Member
This is specifically about the huge leaves at the lower part of the plant. They are larger than my hand by 2x.
My first PP. Blue Dream strain. On day 44.
This plant has huge leaves all over. I am sure it is just how the plant grows but I am wondering if I can or should, remove the huge lower leaves. They are basically in the dark since they are buried by the leaves above them.
Is there any sign as to which nodes are going to flower so I don't cut those off?
Just looking for some advice. Having fun though.
Thank you.
 

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7CardBud

Well-Known Member
I don't see a need to defoliate in veg unless you're fighting mold or pests.

Some things I noticed are the dark green leaves that are starting to claw. That's the beginning of N-Tox.
The plant is overall droopy. That usually indicates root issues, like being root-bound, disease or overwatering.

Overall she is in pretty good shape and should bounce back quickly when the issues are fixed.
 
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marsuzano99

Well-Known Member
Definitely up pot it if possible, into soil that is not too hot. If you’re flowering soon, remove leaves and nodes that are 1/3 the way up from the bottom, leaving 2/3 of the top canopy. Then flip. Defoliate relatively heavy up until day 21 of flower, and then leave it to be.
 

xtsho

Well-Known Member
Definitely up pot it if possible, into soil that is not too hot. If you’re flowering soon, remove leaves and nodes that are 1/3 the way up from the bottom, leaving 2/3 of the top canopy. Then flip. Defoliate relatively heavy up until day 21 of flower, and then leave it to be.
Why?
 

Old Uncle Ben

Active Member
I don't see a need to defoliate in veg unless you're fighting mold or pests.

Some things I noticed are the dark green leaves that are starting to claw. That's the beginning of N-Tox.
The plant is overall droopy. That usually indicates root issues, like being root-bound, disease or overwatering.

Overall she is in pretty good shape and should bounce back quickly when the issues are fixed.
Here is but one of the dozens of botanical "papers" I have written over the years FYI. They can be found at many cannabis forums. Most with my name as the sound off, some re-posting them after stripping my handle and substituting their own.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Plant Moisture Stress - symptoms and solutions (revised May 30, 2011)

Quite often I hear groans from folks having leaf problems: "Help, my leaves are cupping and the leaf edges are turning brown!" or, "My plant's leaf tips are curling down and turning black ....what's wrong?" Unless insect damage has occurred or the plant is suffering from a severe case of calcium deficiency, the plant is trying to tell you that it is water stressed. It's hard to tell exactly what the culprit is, and unfortunately the solution the grower chooses many times is not the right one. A mis‑diagnosis only serves to make matters worse by promoting further decline. I'll try to cover some of the more common causes that can induce these common symptoms and try to offer a few simple solutions. The ultimate and correct solution is in the hands of the grower.

1. Over‑fertilizing ‑ the most common cause of leaf cupping aka leaf margin rolling, leaf margin burn, leaf tip curl/burn and copper colored round spots is the overzealous use of too much plant food in relationship to factors such as plant vigor and rate of growth. The first unit of a plant to show moisture stress is the leaf at its margins and/or tips, reflected by margin rolling (cupping) or burning. A hard, crispy feel to the leaf frequently occurs as well, as opposed to a soft and cool feel of a happy leaf. When you have a high concentration of salts in solution (or in the root medium) compared to lower salinity levels found in the plant's tissue, water is actually drawn out of the plant across the root gradient in order to fix the PPM imbalance. IOW, this is a natural, osmotic response that serves to equalize salinity levels on both sides of the root's epidermal gradient. Back off on the amount and/or frequency of plant food. Too much plant food can also burn the roots, especially the sensitive root tips and hairs, which then creates another set of problems such as nutrient deficiencies. A note for the bio folks ‑ as soil dries, the concentration of the remaining salts rises further exacerbating the problem. Leech (flush) your pots once in a while to get rid of excess salts.

2. High Heat ‑ the plant is losing water via it's leaves faster than what can be replaced by the root system. The leaf responds by leaf margin cupping or rolling (up or down) in order to conserve moisture. A good example is reflected by the appearance of broad‑bladed turf grass on a hot summer day, high noon, with low soil moisture levels ‑ the leaf blade will roll in and the grass will take on a dull, greyish‑green appearance. Upon sunrise when moisture levels have returned to normal, the leaf blade will be flat. Lower the heat and concentrate on developing a large, robust root system by practicing sound plant culture. An efficient and effective root system will go a long way to prevent heat induced leaf dessication and leaf margin curling by supplying sufficient moisture for good plant health. One short episode of high heat is enough to permanently destroy leaf tissue and cause a general decline in the leaves affected, which often occurs to leaves found at the top of the plant located to close to HID lamps. The damaged leaf (usually) does not recover, no matter what you do. Bummer in the summer. One can only look to new growth for indications that the problem has been corrected.

3. High Light ‑ yes, it's true, you can give our faves too much light. Cannabis does not receive full sun from sunrise to sunset in its natural state. It is shaded or given reduced light levels because of adjacent plant material, cloudy conditions, rain, debris and dust collection on the leaf surface, twilight periods of early morning and late afternoon, and light intensity changes caused by a change in the seasons. Too much light mainly serves to bleach out and destroy chlorophyll as opposed to causing leaf cupping, but it often goes hand‑in‑hand with high heat for indoor growers. Again, back off on the light and concentrate on developing/maintaining an efficient and robust root system. Keep in mind that all but equatorial material receives less light during flowering than during the vegetative stage.

4. Overwatering ‑ this practice only serves to weaken the root system by depriving the roots of proper gas exchange. IOW, the roots are not getting enough oxygen which creates an anerobic condition causing root decline and root rot with the end result showing up as leaf stress, stunted growth, and in severe cases, death. <gasp!> A lot of times folks think the plant is not getting enough plant food (which it can't under such adverse conditions), they add more nutes as a "curative", and just add insult to injury.

5. Underwatering ‑ not only is the plant now stressed due to a low supply of adequate moisture, but carbohydrate production has been greatly compromised (screwed up). Step up the watering frequency, and if need be, organic growers may need to soak the pot from the bottom up until moisture levels reach an even consistency throughout the medium especially with mixes that are heavy in peat. If severe, a little surfactant (1 teaspoon per gallon of liquid Ivory dish soap) added to the drench will help return the organics to a normal moisture retentive state. If the pot feels light to the lift ‑ it's time to water. Don't wait until the soil pulls away from the sides of the pot or leaves droop before you water. Soil should stay moist (not wet) at all times. Wet/dry cycles cause more problems than you think they might solve.

Happy gardening,
Uncle Ben
 

priestriver

Active Member
Here is but one of the dozens of botanical "papers" I have written over the years FYI. They can be found at many cannabis forums. Most with my name as the sound off, some re-posting them after stripping my handle and substituting their own.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Plant Moisture Stress - symptoms and solutions (revised May 30, 2011)

Quite often I hear groans from folks having leaf problems: "Help, my leaves are cupping and the leaf edges are turning brown!" or, "My plant's leaf tips are curling down and turning black ....what's wrong?" Unless insect damage has occurred or the plant is suffering from a severe case of calcium deficiency, the plant is trying to tell you that it is water stressed. It's hard to tell exactly what the culprit is, and unfortunately the solution the grower chooses many times is not the right one. A mis‑diagnosis only serves to make matters worse by promoting further decline. I'll try to cover some of the more common causes that can induce these common symptoms and try to offer a few simple solutions. The ultimate and correct solution is in the hands of the grower.

1. Over‑fertilizing ‑ the most common cause of leaf cupping aka leaf margin rolling, leaf margin burn, leaf tip curl/burn and copper colored round spots is the overzealous use of too much plant food in relationship to factors such as plant vigor and rate of growth. The first unit of a plant to show moisture stress is the leaf at its margins and/or tips, reflected by margin rolling (cupping) or burning. A hard, crispy feel to the leaf frequently occurs as well, as opposed to a soft and cool feel of a happy leaf. When you have a high concentration of salts in solution (or in the root medium) compared to lower salinity levels found in the plant's tissue, water is actually drawn out of the plant across the root gradient in order to fix the PPM imbalance. IOW, this is a natural, osmotic response that serves to equalize salinity levels on both sides of the root's epidermal gradient. Back off on the amount and/or frequency of plant food. Too much plant food can also burn the roots, especially the sensitive root tips and hairs, which then creates another set of problems such as nutrient deficiencies. A note for the bio folks ‑ as soil dries, the concentration of the remaining salts rises further exacerbating the problem. Leech (flush) your pots once in a while to get rid of excess salts.

2. High Heat ‑ the plant is losing water via it's leaves faster than what can be replaced by the root system. The leaf responds by leaf margin cupping or rolling (up or down) in order to conserve moisture. A good example is reflected by the appearance of broad‑bladed turf grass on a hot summer day, high noon, with low soil moisture levels ‑ the leaf blade will roll in and the grass will take on a dull, greyish‑green appearance. Upon sunrise when moisture levels have returned to normal, the leaf blade will be flat. Lower the heat and concentrate on developing a large, robust root system by practicing sound plant culture. An efficient and effective root system will go a long way to prevent heat induced leaf dessication and leaf margin curling by supplying sufficient moisture for good plant health. One short episode of high heat is enough to permanently destroy leaf tissue and cause a general decline in the leaves affected, which often occurs to leaves found at the top of the plant located to close to HID lamps. The damaged leaf (usually) does not recover, no matter what you do. Bummer in the summer. One can only look to new growth for indications that the problem has been corrected.

3. High Light ‑ yes, it's true, you can give our faves too much light. Cannabis does not receive full sun from sunrise to sunset in its natural state. It is shaded or given reduced light levels because of adjacent plant material, cloudy conditions, rain, debris and dust collection on the leaf surface, twilight periods of early morning and late afternoon, and light intensity changes caused by a change in the seasons. Too much light mainly serves to bleach out and destroy chlorophyll as opposed to causing leaf cupping, but it often goes hand‑in‑hand with high heat for indoor growers. Again, back off on the light and concentrate on developing/maintaining an efficient and robust root system. Keep in mind that all but equatorial material receives less light during flowering than during the vegetative stage.

4. Overwatering ‑ this practice only serves to weaken the root system by depriving the roots of proper gas exchange. IOW, the roots are not getting enough oxygen which creates an anerobic condition causing root decline and root rot with the end result showing up as leaf stress, stunted growth, and in severe cases, death. <gasp!> A lot of times folks think the plant is not getting enough plant food (which it can't under such adverse conditions), they add more nutes as a "curative", and just add insult to injury.

5. Underwatering ‑ not only is the plant now stressed due to a low supply of adequate moisture, but carbohydrate production has been greatly compromised (screwed up). Step up the watering frequency, and if need be, organic growers may need to soak the pot from the bottom up until moisture levels reach an even consistency throughout the medium especially with mixes that are heavy in peat. If severe, a little surfactant (1 teaspoon per gallon of liquid Ivory dish soap) added to the drench will help return the organics to a normal moisture retentive state. If the pot feels light to the lift ‑ it's time to water. Don't wait until the soil pulls away from the sides of the pot or leaves droop before you water. Soil should stay moist (not wet) at all times. Wet/dry cycles cause more problems than you think they might solve.

Happy gardening,
Uncle Ben
Thanks for this. Gives me some good ideas about what might be going on here. And some things to change next time through to see if it makes a difference.
 

priestriver

Active Member
Here is but one of the dozens of botanical "papers" I have written over the years FYI. They can be found at many cannabis forums. Most with my name as the sound off, some re-posting them after stripping my handle and substituting their own.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Plant Moisture Stress - symptoms and solutions (revised May 30, 2011)

Quite often I hear groans from folks having leaf problems: "Help, my leaves are cupping and the leaf edges are turning brown!" or, "My plant's leaf tips are curling down and turning black ....what's wrong?" Unless insect damage has occurred or the plant is suffering from a severe case of calcium deficiency, the plant is trying to tell you that it is water stressed. It's hard to tell exactly what the culprit is, and unfortunately the solution the grower chooses many times is not the right one. A mis‑diagnosis only serves to make matters worse by promoting further decline. I'll try to cover some of the more common causes that can induce these common symptoms and try to offer a few simple solutions. The ultimate and correct solution is in the hands of the grower.

1. Over‑fertilizing ‑ the most common cause of leaf cupping aka leaf margin rolling, leaf margin burn, leaf tip curl/burn and copper colored round spots is the overzealous use of too much plant food in relationship to factors such as plant vigor and rate of growth. The first unit of a plant to show moisture stress is the leaf at its margins and/or tips, reflected by margin rolling (cupping) or burning. A hard, crispy feel to the leaf frequently occurs as well, as opposed to a soft and cool feel of a happy leaf. When you have a high concentration of salts in solution (or in the root medium) compared to lower salinity levels found in the plant's tissue, water is actually drawn out of the plant across the root gradient in order to fix the PPM imbalance. IOW, this is a natural, osmotic response that serves to equalize salinity levels on both sides of the root's epidermal gradient. Back off on the amount and/or frequency of plant food. Too much plant food can also burn the roots, especially the sensitive root tips and hairs, which then creates another set of problems such as nutrient deficiencies. A note for the bio folks ‑ as soil dries, the concentration of the remaining salts rises further exacerbating the problem. Leech (flush) your pots once in a while to get rid of excess salts.

2. High Heat ‑ the plant is losing water via it's leaves faster than what can be replaced by the root system. The leaf responds by leaf margin cupping or rolling (up or down) in order to conserve moisture. A good example is reflected by the appearance of broad‑bladed turf grass on a hot summer day, high noon, with low soil moisture levels ‑ the leaf blade will roll in and the grass will take on a dull, greyish‑green appearance. Upon sunrise when moisture levels have returned to normal, the leaf blade will be flat. Lower the heat and concentrate on developing a large, robust root system by practicing sound plant culture. An efficient and effective root system will go a long way to prevent heat induced leaf dessication and leaf margin curling by supplying sufficient moisture for good plant health. One short episode of high heat is enough to permanently destroy leaf tissue and cause a general decline in the leaves affected, which often occurs to leaves found at the top of the plant located to close to HID lamps. The damaged leaf (usually) does not recover, no matter what you do. Bummer in the summer. One can only look to new growth for indications that the problem has been corrected.

3. High Light ‑ yes, it's true, you can give our faves too much light. Cannabis does not receive full sun from sunrise to sunset in its natural state. It is shaded or given reduced light levels because of adjacent plant material, cloudy conditions, rain, debris and dust collection on the leaf surface, twilight periods of early morning and late afternoon, and light intensity changes caused by a change in the seasons. Too much light mainly serves to bleach out and destroy chlorophyll as opposed to causing leaf cupping, but it often goes hand‑in‑hand with high heat for indoor growers. Again, back off on the light and concentrate on developing/maintaining an efficient and robust root system. Keep in mind that all but equatorial material receives less light during flowering than during the vegetative stage.

4. Overwatering ‑ this practice only serves to weaken the root system by depriving the roots of proper gas exchange. IOW, the roots are not getting enough oxygen which creates an anerobic condition causing root decline and root rot with the end result showing up as leaf stress, stunted growth, and in severe cases, death. <gasp!> A lot of times folks think the plant is not getting enough plant food (which it can't under such adverse conditions), they add more nutes as a "curative", and just add insult to injury.

5. Underwatering ‑ not only is the plant now stressed due to a low supply of adequate moisture, but carbohydrate production has been greatly compromised (screwed up). Step up the watering frequency, and if need be, organic growers may need to soak the pot from the bottom up until moisture levels reach an even consistency throughout the medium especially with mixes that are heavy in peat. If severe, a little surfactant (1 teaspoon per gallon of liquid Ivory dish soap) added to the drench will help return the organics to a normal moisture retentive state. If the pot feels light to the lift ‑ it's time to water. Don't wait until the soil pulls away from the sides of the pot or leaves droop before you water. Soil should stay moist (not wet) at all times. Wet/dry cycles cause more problems than you think they might solve.

Happy gardening,
Uncle Ben
But it is confusing when 1 symptom can be caused by 2 or more actions, both of which, if 1. Is too limited or 2. Is provided in excess, will cause problems with the plant.
  • Too much water, not enough water.
  • Too much light, not enough light.
  • Over nute, under nute.
Maybe years of experience has the answer.
 
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