How Many Libertarians Out There?

NoDrama said:

People don't keep guns so they can fight a war against the military, they keep them so that they may defend themselves from other people. Also the military does not waste its resources by sending multi million dollar hardware to take out a single individual. Besides, if guns are so useless why the fuck does everyone in the military have one?

Click to expand...

Apparently you have never been south of the mason dixie line. Those motherfuckers are waiting for a chance to spring a civil war. They have guns to kill cops and the military when they come for them. They have militias, and all kinds of backwoods fun. They think that Obama is going to come for them riding a black fucking horse in person. And I am not joking in the slightest. This is not sarcasm.

These absolutely insane motherfuckers actually get elected to local sheriff positions and education dept positions. Take a good long look at what is happening to the curriculum in texas. More jesus, less jefferson. Secede from the union from the fucking governor? Yeah right...People have guns for all kinds of reasons. I am a liberal and I own a .308 rifle. I love it, it is a beautiful machine. It is not just a conservative thing. I used to live in an area that had one of the most democratic senators in congress, but still supported gun rights. I own a gun cuz others do. There are many people who own a gun cuz "someones coming for them"

Hudsonvalley82 said:

Even the most conservative state governor ended up admitting they needed that money or the gig was up.

Click to expand...

Well that goes to show how little you know. It is a FACT that there are States that have less than 2% unemployment, have a SURPLUS in their state coffers and have absolutely ZERO chance of going bankrupt. States that are well funded and have no chance of reneging on their state supplied pensions. States that needed no help whatsoever from the fed. and that is a FACT, indisputable by even the most hardcore liberal.

I know of one state, North Dakota, whats the other? which is much less than 1% of the american population. Again with you, one extreme example for a blanket statement. Admit, you are wrong. There is no evidence that you are right at all. Just conjecture and smoke and mirrors. You have no facts that prove that the stimulus is a failure, out side of a stubborn unemployment number that would be an absolute disaster if there wasn't a stimulus. So i'll give you another shot, and take your time, go to all the conservative (not libertarian) think tank websites you possibly can, and bring back some real substance. Until then...happy new year.

Hudsonvalley82 said:

Apparently you have never been south of the mason dixie line. Those motherfuckers are waiting for a chance to spring a civil war. They have guns to kill cops and the military when they come for them. They have militias, and all kinds of backwoods fun. They think that Obama is going to come for them riding a black fucking horse in person. And I am not joking in the slightest. This is not sarcasm.

These absolutely insane motherfuckers actually get elected to local sheriff positions and education dept positions. Take a good long look at what is happening to the curriculum in texas. More jesus, less jefferson. Secede from the union from the fucking governor? Yeah right...People have guns for all kinds of reasons. I am a liberal and I own a .308 rifle. I love it, it is a beautiful machine. It is not just a conservative thing. I used to live in an area that had one of the most democratic senators in congress, but still supported gun rights. I own a gun cuz others do. There are many people who own a gun cuz "someones coming for them"

Click to expand...

Yeah, I lived in Memphis, Tennessee for a few years. Spent 5 years in the deep south. Spent 8 years in the USMC and 3 years in the Army Nat Guard. I know way more about the south and the Confederate attitude than most northern folk. I also know a bit about the military. Obviously you don't know much about other people you have never met.

NoDrama said:

People don't keep guns so they can fight a war against the military, they keep them so that they may defend themselves from other people. Also the military does not waste its resources by sending multi million dollar hardware to take out a single individual. Besides, if guns are so useless why the fuck does everyone in the military have one?

Click to expand...

No Drama, I am fine with guns to feel like you can protect your family, but to say an AK47 is going to do anything against bombs dropping from the skies is ridiculous. That other moron was saying he needs his guns to fight the oppression that is coming.....hahahahahahahahaha......that was my point, is that little guns like that stand no chance against the vast power, and FIREPOWER of the U.S. Military.

And guns are useless against our military, our soldiers are all told repeatedly they are useless without their weapon, so why do you think they keep their guns? Also, think about the people you know that went into the military. I would say about 95 percent of all the people I knew that went into the military HAD GUNS BEFORE THEY ENLISTED. In fact, I knew some people that were so dumb, they joined the military "so they could shoot bigger guns". Not really the people in my mind, that I want to give a green light with a weapon.

So Drama, I hope you realize that your pea shooter will do no good against any substantial military action. You and I both know I am right.

hazorazo said:

No Drama, I am fine with guns to feel like you can protect your family, but to say an AK47 is going to do anything against bombs dropping from the skies is ridiculous. That other moron was saying he needs his guns to fight the oppression that is coming.....hahahahahahahahaha......that was my point, is that little guns like that stand no chance against the vast power, and FIREPOWER of the U.S. Military.

And guns are useless against our military, our soldiers are all told repeatedly they are useless without their weapon, so why do you think they keep their guns? Also, think about the people you know that went into the military. I would say about 95 percent of all the people I knew that went into the military HAD GUNS BEFORE THEY ENLISTED. In fact, I knew some people that were so dumb, they joined the military "so they could shoot bigger guns". Not really the people in my mind, that I want to give a green light with a weapon.

So Drama, I hope you realize that your pea shooter will do no good against any substantial military action. You and I both know I am right.

Click to expand...

I have 11 years of Military service, 8 of those in the USMC, I have been in multiple combat areas and wars. I know for a fact that 1 man with a gun can literally destroy an army. You think they will drop millions of dollars of ordinance to kill 1 person , but you never spent a second in the Military because that is NOT how they operate. Take it from an expert, guns will save your life. I would rather have the means to defend myself than to be weaponless and at the mercy of anyone else who has a weapon. If your goal in life is just to lay down and let them run over you why not just go in the back yard now and off yourself? I mean if life isn't worth fighting for anyway, right?

Regarding guns, I like this quote:

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms . . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes . . . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
--Thomas Jefferson, quoting Cesare Beccaria in On Crimes and Punishment (1764).

Libertarianism simply means that people should be able to do whatever they want as long as they don't impede upon the rights of others. It's a shame that most people haven't even heard of the term or the philosophy.

Hudsonvalley82 said:

I know of one state, North Dakota, whats the other? which is much less than 1% of the american population. Again with you, one extreme example for a blanket statement. Admit, you are wrong. There is no evidence that you are right at all. Just conjecture and smoke and mirrors. You have no facts that prove that the stimulus is a failure, out side of a stubborn unemployment number that would be an absolute disaster if there wasn't a stimulus. So i'll give you another shot, and take your time, go to all the conservative (not libertarian) think tank websites you possibly can, and bring back some real substance. Until then...happy new year.

Click to expand...

\
If you know of one state then why would you make a statement that includes all states? You weren't thinking someone would call you out on that would you?
You want Evidence the Stimulus did nothing? Lets see where were were one year ago shall we? One year ago today Unemployment was at 9.8%, today its at 9.8% "officially". Last year there were 140 bank closures by the FDIC, this year there were 151 http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN1016947820101211. Home Values have plummeted another 20% this year, the greatest source of capital for most folks

But yeah, the Banks have been doing wonderfully, gave out billion dollar bonuses and just keep getting the free money.

Sure, the stimulus has worked wonders for the country, youth unemployment is almost 20% in the 16-24 age group( http://www.bls.gov/news.release/youth.nr0.htm ), in other words, a quarter of College grads cannot find any job at all, not even one working at McDonalds, I'm sure you'll be able to convince them how great things are now.

Yep things are improving , if you live in Bizzaro world!

Okay, you spent all that time, there, you still haven't refuted the point that there are scared people, who cling to their guns all across the area, definitely not the majority, but still prevalent, more so than most areas. I can list off where I lived too...in South Carloina, albeit by the coast, for 2 two years, and in Virginia to 1, also spent several months in hickory, NC. I have seen a population similar to the one described there, and even from NY where I came from before then, and even here in the mountains in cali. Go to Idaho...tell me shit is okay there. Still, you have more face time down there, so enlighten us on the confederate mindset you know so much about. Especially on the street level.

Actually address the issue at hand rather than list off where you have lived, and that you were in the military. Which, PS thank you for your service, please don't mistake this conversation as disrespect of your service. However I am not going to let down my challenge of your stance.

Retail sales are up, GDP has grown steadily...hows your 401K or retirement fund since two years ago? Housing prices are definitely down, probably because they were artificially inflated in the first place.

Secondly if you want to toss around economic indicators. Try these on, they are a little more telling that the snap shot numbers you are tossing around.
http://www.bls.gov/news.release/laus.nr0.htm
http://www.bls.gov/bls/newsrels.htm#major

So, in return, two years after a crisis as large as the one that happened, how come all these indicators are moving in good directions? It took almost a decade to clean up the last incidence this large, and god forbid, a very economically stimulating war to seal the deal...The unemployment is high, indeed, as I said, that ain't coming back anytime soon, it may never come back IMHO. People were doing a lot of pointless jobs, that were convenient, but not necessary. Those non essential jobs aren't coming back in the foreseeable future. I work for construction and building materials company and I have first hand seen jobs that the stimulus has created. Roads fixed, new schools, materials orders, ect...ect...The amount of the unemployed workforce that received associates degrees from their community colleges to vary their expertise. So on and so forth.

The real disaster is how many people just sit around and complain, instead of taking advantage of some of these things. The unemployed are looking for jobs in the same salary range, and of fields they were once in. After enough unemployment check dinners they will soon realize that maybe they will just have to take whatever is out there. Baby boomers aren't retiring, which is completely destroying the professional fields chains of promotion and talent finding. Those all have a lot to play into the equation.

Would you say that our economic situation would be the better, or worse without the stimulus??

NoDrama said:

\
If you know of one state then why would you make a statement that includes all states? You weren't thinking someone would call you out on that would you?
You want Evidence the Stimulus did nothing? Lets see where were were one year ago shall we? One year ago today Unemployment was at 9.8%, today its at 9.8% "officially". Last year there were 140 bank closures by the FDIC, this year there were 151 http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN1016947820101211. Home Values have plummeted another 20% this year, the greatest source of capital for most folks View attachment 1355834

But yeah, the Banks have been doing wonderfully, gave out billion dollar bonuses and just keep getting the free money.

Sure, the stimulus has worked wonders for the country, youth unemployment is almost 20% in the 16-24 age group( http://www.bls.gov/news.release/youth.nr0.htm ), in other words, a quarter of College grads cannot find any job at all, not even one working at McDonalds, I'm sure you'll be able to convince them how great things are now.

Yep things are improving , if you live in Bizzaro world!

Click to expand...

Hudsonvalley82 said:

Would you say that our economic situation would be the better, or worse without the stimulus??

Click to expand...

there is no way he will give you an honest 'better or worse' answer.

he will go off on a diatribe about anything and everything he feels is wrong with the world in an attempt to distract the issue before he does that.

i write this in hopes of prodding him into an honest answer.

So, let me get this straight...

When we are doing bad it is because of business and when we are doing good it is because of government.... LOL!!!

NLXSK1 said:

So, let me get this straight...

When we are doing bad it is because of business and when we are doing good it is because of government.... LOL!!!

Click to expand...

not sure what post or who you are directing this at, but no one is saying that the economy is doing good because of the american recovery and reinvestment act. i believe me and every other progressive would say that all it did was stave off complete disaster.

care to elaborate on who and what you were addressing, or were you just trying to get a fox news soundbyte out?

Sure your statistics are from the government, guess who cheats the statistics? They didn't have housing as part of the CPI for years and years and years, but now all of a sudden since housing is falling like a rock its now counted. Makes the CPI number go down, which means govt doesn't have to give such big COLA increases. Guess what elese isn't used as part of CPI, energy and commodities. Guess where most of the inflation is? Commodities and energy. But nope, its not worth even using those to calculate CPI is it? You want the truth? Try this on for size.


Unemployment?


Not so rosy is it?

How about . Government spending is part of GDP, if they want to increase GDP all the government has to do is borrow a few trillion of your labor/dollars and spend it on things like paying the interest on the debt and making sure that big banks are bailed out. Using GDP growth as a factor in the economy getting better is deceitful at best. Its a factor of things getting worse, not better. Take away Government spending and you have a large decrease in GDP to the tune of an 8% contraction. That isn't real growth that's real depression.


Oh and BTW Happy New Years you guys, UB, Hud, Med Man, Redi, Johnny, NLXSK1,and others that I have forgotten during my inebriated moment.

i have seen these before.

looks like everything that was blowing up suddenly stabilized after january 2009.

what were you trying to prove?

Hudsonvalley82 said:

Would you say that our economic situation would be the better, or worse without the stimulus??

Click to expand...

In the long run or the short run? In the short run the stimulus has only put off and made worse the inevitable that will be here tomorrow, but Ill concede that in the short term things are better than they would be if they had just let the crash happen, in fact things would probably be getting better by now. In the long run we are DOOMED!! No Government that uses fiat money has ever survived, ever.

UncleBuck said:

i have seen these before.

looks like everything that was blowing up suddenly stabilized after january 2009.

what were you trying to prove?

Click to expand...

Yep a real Jobless recovery, won't be long and unemployment will be 20% and the country will be just humming along even better I'M sure. You can have government spend trillions and it will make the numbers look better, but hows that job search going UB?

Yeah happy new year to all...

Umm..Thats how the last depression ended? If the government doesn't spend, no one does, and things get worse cuz of lack of revenue. Imagine all the unemployment dollars that wouldn't have been spent with the stimulus, imagine all the jobs that would of been lost in the public sector adding into those graphs, imagine all the public/private contracts that would have been lost had it not been for the stimulus. And Obama hasn't increased the taxes once since he has been in office. In fact he lowered them for the large lion share of Americans. But knuckleheads (yeah barkley) like you carry on about taxes too high all of the sudden and crucify the man who is lowering them and listening to you. Perhaps you should listen to him.

Those graphs don't prove to me that the stimulus was a failure at all, it proves to me that it was needed even more than we thought. It proves to me that those who wanted to cut out 50% of the infrastructure spending and replace them with crap tax cuts we dead wrong. (also know as conservatives) It proves to me that without the stimulus, things would actually have halted the private and public sectors combined.

What you still haven't answered is any of my questions asked on this thread thus far, I directly address the points you bring up, you ignore my points as an attempt to invalidate them. I want you to answer my questions. In respect to this: Do you think that your overall situation as a nation would be better or worse off without the stimulus? What if we did nothing?

Hudsonvalley82 said:

What you still haven't answered is any of my questions asked on this thread thus far, I directly address the points you bring up, you ignore my points as an attempt to invalidate them. I want you to answer my questions. In respect to this: Do you think that your overall situation as a nation would be better or worse off without the stimulus? What if we did nothing?

Click to expand...

2 posts up, you should read it.

Hudsonvalley82 said:

.

Umm..Thats how the last depression ended?

Click to expand...

Umm lets see after WW2 there weren't any countries left that had a shits worth of manufacturing capacity except the USA. When your the top dog and make everything, guess what? Depression gone, good times are here!!! They tried to spend their way out of the depression for 10 fucking years and only made things worse. FDR stole 1/2 the money in the USA and let government squander it. War is what got us out of the depression not government largesse.