How Many Libertarians Out There?

What do you think?

  • Democrats have it right!

    Votes: 3 7.1%
  • Republicans have it right!

    Votes: 1 2.4%
  • Libertarians have it right!

    Votes: 27 64.3%
  • I support something else entirely!

    Votes: 11 26.2%

  • Total voters
    42

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
Yeah they kicked out all the white landowners and farmers, now people in Zimbabwe have to starve because ... all the farmers are gone, leaving only folks that have no idea how to farm left over.
now, since you were so polite as to correct hudson on his logical fallacies in a different post on a different thread, i feel obliged to do the same for you.

your mistake here is confusing cause and effect. just because one thing happened before the other does not entail that the former caused the latter.

but, do elaborate: what attribute of melanin levels in human skin does a good farmer make?
 

Carthoris

Well-Known Member
He never said being white made them a good farmer. What he was saying is the people who had been doing the farming were white and were kicked out, and people who don't know how to run the farms are running them now, and happen to be black. The white people had all the farming skills and money(to buy equipment, ect), they left, and now the country is poor and has crappy farming.
 

Carthoris

Well-Known Member
I guess then, Nancy fucking Pelosi and the democrats are enemy No. 1, More than the taliban, Well, they probably are more than the taliban since the taliban lives some 6-8 thousand miles away, but you righties are pathetic. Talk about complete idiocy. How could you all live in a disconnected, every man/woman/child for themselves world? I get it that you want to keep all "your" money and fuck everyone else, but let's be real, money is not everything, it is only a tool. A tool is meant to be used, not stored away in some deep dark vault. If I didn't know what assholes you righties are, I could actually feel sorry for your pathetic asses, Mine, mine, mine, all mine, fuck you.
Democrat/Socialist/Communist ideals are by far more dangerous than the Taliban will ever be. Why does it always come back to money with you? It isn't about money. It is about right and wrong. I have an apple, four people don't. So they beat me and take 4/5ths of my apple? That is your basis for a 'fair' government?

Tools are made to be used. People are not. If make 100k dollars, and the Government takes 20k then I just worked 20% of my time as a slave to the government. What the government does with the money has no bearing on whether it is right or wrong to make a slave of someone else.

The ideals you spew continue to centralize the government, and decentralize the family. In the last 50 years, our government has decided to take the place of hard work, saving, and relying on your family. Safety nets can quickly become capture nets.

Social security/Welfare ect ect has made an entire segment of the society not worry about the future, since the government has it covered. What happened to old people before social security? How about poor people?

No one seriously suggests doing away with the government. What we have is varying schools of thought on how much the government should control. It falls more or less like this:

Conservative: Government control of personal freedoms but not property/money/economy

Liberal: Government control of property/money/economy but not personal freedoms.

Libertarian: Government control of as little as possible

Statist: Government control of as much as possible

nolan_chart_150.png

This is the nolan chart. It shows the 4 thoughts in a square, with a centrist view in the middle. MOST people fall into the gray square.

At the bottom purple tip is statism. No money, no property, you work, you eat, everyone get the same thing. Your life is lived for society. You have no control over you do with your life. Government controls religion or lack there of, ect.

On the top green tip you have libertarian/anarchist, you would have the ability to work, the ability to own property, and the ability to get money. It would all depend on you, and no one else. You have complete freedom in your personal life.

On the far blue, you have the liberal ideal. You work, you have no money or property, as in statism, but you have complete freedom of your personal life.

On the far red, you have the conservative ideal. You work, you have complete control of your money and property and your personal life is controlled by society.

I was not implying that anarchists and libertarians are the same thing. They are of the same family, however. Libertarian ideals, like our current conservative and liberal ideals in the country are short of the extremes. The democratic party is somewhere towards the bottom left of the gray square, The republicans are towards the bottom right. There are different Libertarian ideas but in general it falls somewhere north of the gray square. Anarchists would be at the very top point. There have never been any PURE governments of any types, and I really doubt there could ever be short of robots killing us and doing their own thing after.

What does this leave us with? Well, shades of colors. I fall to the top left of the green. I understand the need for the government, and what it must do to allow for the people to exist at all in the world we live in. My stated goal is to be completely free of outside interference and worry about what I want to do in my life as long as I let others do the same.

If you want to find out what you are on the Nolan Chart, here is a survey, just answer the questions, and it tells you where you are. :
http://www.nolanchart.com/survey.php


I think our founding fathers had the same goal as me. The entire bill of rights was to protect the people from the government. It doesn't say anything about the government taking care of the people, nor people being forced to take care of other people. In all honesty, if our government just followed the original constitution with a few additions (no one is trying to bring back slavery for instance) we would basically have a libertarian federal government.

The entire constitution and bill of rights was written entirely just for one purpose: To protect the liberty of the individual from the government and society. Anyone who says otherwise simply hasn't read them or is a halftard.




This planet has -- or rather had -- a problem, which was this: most of the people living on it were unhappy for pretty much of the time. Many solutions were suggested for this problem, but most of these were largely concerned with the movements of small green pieces of paper, which is odd because on the whole it wasn't the small green pieces of paper that were unhappy. - Douglas Adams

There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. - Douglas Adams

In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. - Douglas Adams
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
now, since you were so polite as to correct hudson on his logical fallacies in a different post on a different thread, i feel obliged to do the same for you.

your mistake here is confusing cause and effect. just because one thing happened before the other does not entail that the former caused the latter.

but, do elaborate: what attribute of melanin levels in human skin does a good farmer make?
Its not a logical Fallacy, its a 100% provable fact.

I really don't want to make a huge huge post, gotta go to the Bullion dealers and get me some more Gold and Silver, then Grocery Shopping. But I will leave you with this article on Robert Mugabe and the Lancaster House Agreement. You can decide who was the racist here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_reform_in_Zimbabwe

Carthoris seems to have a clue on world events.
 

medicineman

New Member
I see you quoted me in your sig! I'm honored medman!:clap: To be fair though, you should put a link to the actual post. :blsmoke:
No problem, anything I can do to help out, I'm there. Fair, you talk fair, my my, maybe some compassion is creeping in. We can only hope. BTW you are not the enemy, your thinking is.
 

Hudsonvalley82

Well-Known Member
Again, most extreme example, used to paint with a broad brush.

Its not a logical Fallacy, its a 100% provable fact.

I really don't want to make a huge huge post, gotta go to the Bullion dealers and get me some more Gold and Silver, then Grocery Shopping. But I will leave you with this article on Robert Mugabe and the Lancaster House Agreement. You can decide who was the racist here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_reform_in_Zimbabwe

Carthoris seems to have a clue on world events.
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
Again, most extreme example, used to paint with a broad brush.
Go back to post 268, Cathoris came up with the subject of Hyperinflation and how it all got started, try to follow along. When you make comments like this it only shows that you aren't reading other peoples posts and are lost as to the direction the conversation is going.

and FYI Zimbabwe is NOT the most extreme example. Yugoslavia, Germany and Hungary were all worse.
 

Carthoris

Well-Known Member
Hyperinflation is a good example of what we as a country are working towards.

The inflation after WW1 for Germany was so bad that people got paid 3 times a day, and sent their wives shopping 3 times a day, because they knew by the next pay time it would be worth less.

Wholesale Price Index

[SIZE=-1] July 1914[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] 1.0[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] Jan 1919[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] 2.6[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] July 1919[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] 3.4[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] Jan 1920[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] 12.6[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] Jan 1921[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] 14.4[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] July 1921[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] 14.3[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] Jan 1922[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] 36.7[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] July 1922[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] 100.6[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] Jan 1923[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] 2,785.0[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] July 1923[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] 194,000.0[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] Nov 1923[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] 726,000,000,000.0[/SIZE]


That is pretty harsh. For those who don't know what that means. It means the amount of goods that 1 dollar bought you in 1914 was now 726,000,000,000 in 1923. That sucks a big ass, if I do say so. The main cause of this? The government wouldn't stop printing money. They printed it as fast as possible.

Why do I say this is what we are working towards with our liberal society? Well.. when they say we are 14 trillion dollars in debt, why do we owe this to? Well, a majority of it is to.... China? No, we only owe China about 800 billion. It is to the Federal Reserve. Eh? Well.. basically, the federal reserve prints the money, and sends it out.. ok... but it also buys treasury bonds from the US government and then prints up money to pay for it - and then the government has to pay it back. What the hell is the point in doing that? And if we are just printing up the money to more or less buy our own debt, exactly who is getting payed back? Good luck on figuring that one out. However, there is one thing that you can understand.

If you have 100 dollars and you print 10 more, you have 110 dollars - but they are still only worth 100. That means each dollar is worth about 91 cents after printing the 10 extra dollars. If we spend 1 trillion dollars we don't have, it comes from the Federal Reserve mostly. They don't have money, they just print more. So they give us the 1 trillion dollars to go on a happy spree, the government spends it like drunken sailors. That 1 trillion dollars just depreciated all the other dollars by 1 trillion dollars. It is basically like they just taxed you whatever percent they print vs the total US dollars. This causes prices to go up. Inflation. This is exactly what happened to the Germans after WW1.

That is why I was thinking about mortgages and I was curious in history if the government did something to help business's when devaluation was happening. If you sell someone a house for 100,000 and hold the mortgage, and all the sudden 100,000 is only enough to buy lunch, that sucks for you. I know our government is purposely devaluing our money, but I am just now starting to look at some of the broader aspects of what that means to us. I think Hyper Inflation in Germany is a pretty good idea of where we are headed if we keep it up. We could pay off our debt, it isn't that massive when compared to our income as a country. We have to stop spending needlessly first though, and everyone has to work towards paying it off.

Basically, we are paying interest on money to the fed reserve, then whatever profit the federal reserve made is put back into the treasury. So it is an interest free loan to the government, gained by devaluing the dollars in your pocket. What happens if we repay those loans, since it wasn't real money in the first place? Does the money disappear or what? Why couldn't we just for the sake of argument shrug off the federal reserve bank loans since, really, that money never existed anyway and any value gained was taken from the people by just printing more money and it is already gone. We don't really owe it to anyone but the American people anyway, why not just call that 8 trillion even - it isn't like anyone will be losing anything - the money has already been devalued and it wasn't the Fed's money to lend in the first place We really only owe about 4-5 trillion or something to that effect outside of that, and it seems reasonably easy to take care of that. We could be a debt free country in 10 years without even tightening our belt too much.
 

Carthoris

Well-Known Member
If we payed back the trillions we 'owe' the federal reserve, it would make the dollar worth a lot more vs other currencies. They are diluting the money by printing more. 4 people have lemonade, need more, just add another cup of water. You now have 5 cups. You don't have more lemon though, nothing has changed, you just have less lemon flavor in each cup. Now shut up and drink your lemonade:)
 

NLXSK1

Well-Known Member
Well, it is my understanding that 3 trillion dollars of it is IOU's to the social security system.

The rest of the hundreds of trillions is promises in benefits from social security, medicare, medicade, employee pensions, etc...

Alot of the debt is held by private companies who have bought those governnment bonds.

Defaulting on some of it might happen but all of those dollars are promised to somebody and the money we cut is going to have an effect.
 

Carthoris

Well-Known Member
This is a slightly inaccurate chart, its from 2007. We owe China and Japan about 800-900 billion a piece now. A lot of that is owed to social security, medicare, ect. However, the Federal bank owns a pretty good chunk of it.
piechart200701.gif
 

doc111

Well-Known Member
No problem, anything I can do to help out, I'm there. Fair, you talk fair, my my, maybe some compassion is creeping in. We can only hope. BTW you are not the enemy, your thinking is.
You didn't add a link! lol! That's fine with me. The quote is very funny by itself but I think it's important to put it in the proper context. Do you know how to add links? If not, pm me and I'll help you do it.;-)
 

Carthoris

Well-Known Member
Well, it is my understanding that 3 trillion dollars of it is IOU's to the social security system.

The rest of the hundreds of trillions is promises in benefits from social security, medicare, medicade, employee pensions, etc...

Alot of the debt is held by private companies who have bought those governnment bonds.

Defaulting on some of it might happen but all of those dollars are promised to somebody and the money we cut is going to have an effect.
All of it is owed to someone except for the debt held by the Federal Reserve. That is owned by the people on a whole bought by the devaluation of the dollar. If we just wrote it off, nothing would change. The dollar would still be worth the same amount(since it is already devalued), but our debt would be reduced by trillions. I am just unsure why they bother to keep up the charade of paying it back.
 

tweekjones

Active Member
Every last person on this site who is growing ,regardless of what political ideology he or she holds,is participating in the counter economy and is a default agorist so basically what I'm trying to say is your all alright by me pretty much.
 

Johnnyorganic

Well-Known Member
Every last person on this site who is growing ,regardless of what political ideology he or she holds,is participating in the counter economy and is a default agorist so basically what I'm trying to say is your all alright by me pretty much.
For me, it begins and ends with civil disobedience.

And I don't sell. That's not why I am doing this.

And I stopped buying a long time ago, so any effect I have on the black market, or counter economy, as you call it is negligible.
 

tweekjones

Active Member
For me, it begins and ends with civil disobedience.

And I don't sell. That's not why I am doing this.

And I stopped buying a long time ago, so any effect I have on the black market, or counter economy, as you call it is negligible.
Understood but even just civil disobedience is a very important part of agorism so I commend you and everyone here in whatever way they contribute.
 

smartmonkey777

Well-Known Member
as it is our life in america is easy, i blame the police for there intimidating tactics there wasting of our taxes to incarcerate every one for a never ending list of petty offenses, ruining lives.

i blame the government for there misinformation and lies to america and a never ending war's to fix the world wasting our blood and treasure.

for me though. all i can do is do what is right an just and spread truth to all those who will listen. if that is viewed as civil disobedience so be it, as i am a soverign citizen under the constitution of the united states of america and i will not be tread on.
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
:mrgreen:
For me, it begins and ends with civil disobedience.

And I don't sell. That's not why I am doing this.

And I stopped buying a long time ago, so any effect I have on the black market, or counter economy, as you call it is negligible.


Wickard v. Filburn ... Interstate commerce clause. In their infinite wisdom the Supreme Court has decided since you "might" or "could"
sell you are guilty. Even if those events never occur again, the fact that you no longer purchase HAS affected the market.

Pay up sinner you're guilty ! :bigjoint:
 

Johnnyorganic

Well-Known Member
Wickard v. Filburn ... Interstate commerce clause. In their infinite wisdom the Supreme Court has decided since you "might" or "could"
sell you are guilty. Even if those events never occur again, the fact that you no longer purchase HAS affected the market.

Pay up sinner you're guilty ! :bigjoint:
Oh I know I'm guilty.

The way the law sees it, growing implies intent to distribute.

Civil disobedience is to knowingly break a law one considers unjust and accept the consequences if one is caught.

And you can make a case that I negatively affected the black market by abandoning it. But I am certain a brand new customer stepped up and took my place as soon as I started growing.
 
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