How a Police IR helicopter functions?

Heterotextual

Well-Known Member
I have 3 1000w hps all in cooltubes and I have it vented out through my furnace exhaust so when my heat is on it hides the hot air, but because it is summer now and the heater is off, would it be suspect that hot air is still coming out of the furnace exhaust?
 

SableZen

Well-Known Member
Guys, do a little Googling about the different types of heat and the different technologies out there. If you watch the video a few times and focus on the houses as they fly over you can clearly see the lighting inside of the houses.
I've personally used a wide array of them - a majority were much better than what law enforcement will likely be using anytime soon... and not once did any of them act like an x-ray machine and allow me to see objects through walls...

FLIR is artificially visualized radiated heat. It doesn't show a focused shape of any sort if there is much of anything between the radiating object and the camera because then that heat has to be radiated, heat up surrounding air, travel through the air, be absorbed by a secondary object, heated up, and re-radiated again to the camera - losing definition of the original object... if any heat makes it through at all. If people want to believe they are picking out individual 60w incandescent lights, persons, etc through the roof shingles, tar paper, plywood, attic space (5-10' of air), attic floor (usually more plywood), insulation (big one), ceiling, and more air space (5-10' of air).... they are lacking a very basic understanding of FLIR capability and the definition it can provide through structure. Each one of those things would destroy any definition of the originally radiating object - add them all up, and it becomes a true impossibility.

No ill-will towards anyone here by the way despite differences in opinion. Believe what you want about FLIR and if you ever really want to know what FLIR can do just rent a good quality IR camera and find out for yourself.
 

mindphuk

Well-Known Member
Guys, do a little Googling about the different types of heat and the different technologies out there. If you watch the video a few times and focus on the houses as they fly over you can clearly see the lighting inside of the houses. At some points as they adjust focus you can see everything in the house. Again, these are like 60W bulbs you are seeing (the tiny white specs). Watch it again and ignore the suspect and just focus on the houses and you will see the white specs all over. Those specs are light bulbs in the houses!

Just about all objects are mostly empty space and there is technology that looks through that empty space to see radiant heat which is a different type of heat from covection heat. While it is true that they can't distinguish a single HID from a space heater, they would certainly be able to distinguish 8 400W HIDs layed out in a growing pattern or even 2 or 3 HIDs in a distinct row.

There is a reason the courts have made numerous rulings on the use of thermal imaging in busting grow operations. It's just plain silly to think this happened because they can't really see the lights. They CAN see the lights. But, if you lay out Reflectix in your attic they can't because aluminum blocks the shit dead.

Really there is no argument - people have been busted by thermal imaging and it's not because hot air was blowing out. Every home blows out hot air, it's called a clothes dryer.
Stop giving out wrong information! First CO2, now FLIR?

FLIR cannot penetrate walls, it can only read the difference in temperature or variations in infrared emissions coming from an object. If that object is a wall or roof, and you have heat concentrated in that area, it will show warmer when compared to other parts and you will get an image like RichED showed.

Of course people have been busted with this technology but that still doesn't mean it can see through walls. Your logic sucks.

If FLIR could see through walls, then the police cannot use that information without a warrant. FLIR searches have been ruled constitutional because they reason there is no expectation of privacy from waste heat, just as the police can lawfully use a dog to detect smells that humans cannot detect, they can use equipment to see heat that humans cannot see.

The Supreme Court has acknowledged that police may use new technology to enforce the laws but has cautioned that there are limits: "An electronic device to penetrate walls or windows so as to hear and record confidential discussions... would raise very different and far more serious questions."
Dow Chemical Co. v. United State, 476 U.S. 227 (1986)


By the way people, FLIR stands for Forward Looking InfraRed. So it's an acronym. Police use the term flir as both a noun and a verb. There is no such word as flur.

Also, there's no difference between thermal imaging and FLIR. Thermal imaging is just the broad category. FLIR is a specific type of thermal imaging device. There maybe other, more advanced thermal imagers but due to basic physics, they can only see the heat that is reradiated by the surfaces of your house, it will not see inside.
 

RickWhite

Well-Known Member
You guys can't plainly see the squirl cage fan that they guy was using to pump the heat out? That fan is on the inside of the house, right? So why can they see the squirl cage and not the lights? What gives off more heat?

Don't believe everything you see on the internet. Convection heat and radiant heat are different things. But if you want, feel fre to think what you want, you can piss and moan to the other guys in prison about how it's BS because they video on the internet says they can't see your grow lights. I'll spend $75 on a roll of relflectix and play it safe.
 

SableZen

Well-Known Member
First it's incandescent bulbs, then people, then a squirrel cage fan...

Again, no you won't be able to see enough detail from a heat source through any sort of intervening material like is found in common house walls/floor/roofs/etc... that's just silly. :hump:
 

RickWhite

Well-Known Member
OK, I give up. I guess the reason there are numerous documented cases of grow operations being detected by thermal imaging proves nothing. Strange though, has anyone heard of someone being raided because they had a wood burning stove in their house? Wouldn't that make a room look an awful lot like a grow room? Why has the court ruled that the use of such technology REQUIRES A WARRANT AND IS LEGALY CONSIDERED A SEARCH?

Another thing - there are other similar forums out there and the same thing happens. One guy states some opinion and the guys who know him back him up regardless of the facts. On other similar forums the consensus is that they CAN see through walls and ceilings and if I said they can't there would be a similar group of regulars that would argue the opposite. I have read through threads with guys claiming to have first hand knowledge of this technology seeing through everything save several feet of dirt and concrete with the same vigor in which you guys are saying it can't.

Clearly, people are getting busted by this technology - believe what you wish I don't care.
 

Hedgehunter

Well-Known Member
i see all the bullshit police propaganda is working, lots of scared peeps on this thread, if it was as easy as some are saying to spot grow rooms everyone would be getting raided
 

mindphuk

Well-Known Member
[SIZE=+2]Thermal Imaging[/SIZE] [SIZE=+2]Much Heat But Little Light[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]by Thomas D. Colbridge, J.D.[/SIZE] [SIZE=-2]Reprinted from the FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin, December 1997 Illustration by R.L. Crabb[/SIZE]
Criminals quickly adopt advances in technology to pursue ill-gotten gains. Law enforcement officers should just as quickly adopt new technology as weapons against those criminals. However, unlike criminals, police officers must act within the confines of their federal and state constitutions. The use of advanced technology in the "often competitive enterprise of ferreting out crime''1 raises concerns that indi-vidual liberties will be sacrificed in the increasingly complex war on crime. Right or wrong, the specter of Orwell's "Big Brother" looms large in the public's mind whenever a new crime-fighting device is unveiled. The thermal imager or forward looking infrared device (FLIR), is an example.
Several court decisions illustrate the constitutional arguments for and against police use of thermal imagers without a search warrant. Within certain guidelines, law enforcement can use thermal imagers in compliance with the requirements of the Fourth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution.




THE TECHNOLOGY All objects with a temperature above absolute zero emit infrared radiation. The hotter an object gets, the more infrared radiation it emits. These emissions cannot be seen with the naked eye. However, a thermal imager can detect infrared radiation emitted from an object and convert its readings into a two-dimensional, black-and-white picture.
The picture contains various shades of gray, depending upon how much infrared radiation the object is emitting. The hotter areas emit larger amounts of infrared radiation and are lighter in color; the cooler areas appear darker. The device does not measure the actual temperature of its target; it only detects the relative temperatures of different areas of the object. A thermal imager is extremely sensitive and reportedly can detect temperature variations as small as 0.1 degrees centigrade.2 The images created by the device can be projected onto a small viewing screen or preserved on video tape or photographs. The thermal imager is small enough to be hand-held, but often is mounted under a helicopter and flown over its target.
The technology is not new. The military has used it for years on the battlefield. Law enforcement has adopted the device only recently, using it in search and rescue operations, fugitive apprehensions, and along the border to detect drug smugglers and illegal border crossings. Moreover, thermal imagers have been particularly helpful, albeit controversial, in the detection of indoor marijuana-growing operations.3




FOURTH AMENDMENT BASICS The Fourth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution prohibits unreasonable searches and seizures by the government.4 In the now famous case of Katz v. United States,5 the Supreme Court redefined a search. Recognizing that the Fourth Amendment protects "people, not places,"6 the Court said that a search occurs whenever the government intrudes into a person's reasonable expectation of privacy.
Justice Harlan, concurring in Katz, formulated a useful, two-pronged test to determine when there is a reasonable expectation of privacy: 1) Does the person have a subjective or actual expectation of privacy? and 2) Is that expectation one that society is willing to accept as reasonable?7 If the answer to both questions is "yes," any police infringement upon that expectation is considered a search.
If the police action is a search under the Katz definition, the next question is whether the search is reasonable. The Fourth Amendment does not prohibit all searches, only unreasonable ones. The Supreme Court has made this inquiry simple. Any search made without a warrant is per se unreasonable, unless it can be justified by one of several narrowly defined exceptions to the warrant requirement.8 The Supreme Court prefers the use of search warrants. The application for the warrant takes the issue of the existence of probable cause to search away from the investigating officer and places it before a neutral and detached magistrate, adding an additional measure of protection for the private citizen.9
The Supreme Court has not heard a case on whether targeting a residence with a thermal imager is a search requiring a warrant. However, the question has reached several lower federal courts and some state courts. Decisions have gone both ways. Officers using thermal imagers must understand both sides of this argument in order to avoid violating constitutional requirements.




MAJORITY VIEW Most of the courts have decided that targeting a building with a thermal imager is not a search under the Fourth Amendment.10 United States v. Penny-Feeney11 was one of the first cases to consider the matter. The court's reasoning has influenced many other courts on the issue.
The Facts Officers in Hawaii received information from two anonymous sources that Penny-Feeney had sold marijuana in California before moving to Hawaii and continued to do so. They told police that Penny-Feeney had grown marijuana in her home for 3 years, and plants were being harvested every 6 weeks. They provided a wealth of detail about the operation. Officers obtained a search warrant for a package sent to Penny-Feeney from California. They discovered $2,700 in cash that was detected by a narcotics dog. Officers observed Penny-Feeney pick up the package and take it to her home. Police later contacted a known informant who had visited Penny-Feeney's residence and seen the marijuana-growing operation. He, too, described the operation in great detail. Many of the details provided by the informants were corroborated by the police.
Without a warrant, police flew over Penny-Feeney's residence at an altitude of between 1,200 and 1,500 feet in a helicopter fitted with FLIR. The thermal image of her house showed the walls and other areas of her garage as bright white, indicating significant heat was escaping from the garage. Adjacent but similar structures did not appear the same when scanned by the FLIR. The FLIR operator said the thermal image of her house was consistent with that of a structure being used for an indoor marijuana-growing operation.
Police got a warrant to search Penny-Feeney's residence using all of this information, including the results of the FLIR scan. During execution of the warrant, police found marijuana plants and paraphernalia used to grow marijuana indoors. Penny-Feeney and her husband were indicted. They filed a motion to suppress the evidence, alleging, among other things, that the warrantless use of the FLIR by police was an illegal search under the Fourth Amendment.
No Subjective Expectation of Privacy in "Waste Heat" Using the Katz analysis, the district court concluded that the defendants had no subjective or actual expectation of privacy in the area scanned by the police with the FLIR. The court said that FLIR is limited to "detecting differences in temperature on the surface of the object being observed," and "did no more than gauge and reflect the amount of heat that emanated"12 from the defendants' house. In other words, the FLIR registered only heat escaping from the defendants' house. The court described this escaping heat as waste heat, or "abandoned heat,"13 because the defendants had not tried to prevent its escape. Indeed, they used fans to vent the heat to the outside, voluntarily exposing it to the public. They never attempted "to impede its escape or exercise dominion over it."14
Under these circumstances, the court concluded that the defendants did not have an actual or subjective expectation of privacy in the waste heat. Consequently, the first prong of the Katz case was not satisfied: There was no actual expectation of privacy, so there was no search under the Fourth Amendment that would require a warrant.
Expectation of Privacy Not Objectively Reasonable The court went on to say that even if the defendants had an actual expectation of privacy in this waste heat, it is not an expectation that society is willing to accept. In other words, the defendants could not satisfy the second prong of the Katz test. The court compared heat vented to the outside to trash left for collection on a public street. The Supreme Court has said that garbage bags left for pickup generally are known to be accessible to all manner of animals and people while awaiting the trash collector. In addition, the trash is voluntarily given to trash collectors, who may handle it in any fashion they choose, including giving it to government agents. Therefore, any actual expectation that the garbage will be private is not objectively reasonable.15 By analogy, the court reasoned that waste heat is like trash: Any expectation of privacy in waste heat is objectively unreasonable because individuals may do what they want with it once it is exposed to the public.
Sense-Enhancing Technology Not Overly Intrusive The Penny-Feeney court did not consider the fact that waste heat can only be detected with a FLIR, and not the naked eye, to be legally significant. It relied upon several Supreme Court cases approving the warrantless use of "extrasensory, nonintrusive equipment, such as the FLIR" to investigate people and objects: United States v. Knotts16 (a beeper placed in a container), United States v. Place17 (use of a drug detection dog), and Smith v. Maryland18 (use of a pen register). The court thought the analogy to the use of a drug detection dog was the strongest, citing United States v. Solis.19 Like marijuana odor emanating from a package, Penny-Feeney expected the heat to leave the garage because she deliberately vented it to the outside. Moreover, the court concluded that the use of FLIR by police, like the use of a dog in Solis, was inoffensive because it did not embarrass the defendants or involve a search of their persons. In addition, heat and odor emanations are physical facts indicating a possible crime, not protected communications between people. Finally, the use of the helicopter to aim FLIR at Penny-Feeney's house was deemed lawful under California v. Ciraolo20 and Florida v. Riley21 because the police remained in navigable airspace, and the observation was physically nonintrusive because there was no "invasion of the home or curtilage."22
The Court's Conclusion The Penny-Feeney court concluded that the police did "no more than aim a passive infrared device at defendant's home from an aerial vantage point for the purpose of detecting disposed waste heat on the exterior of the house. No intimate details connected with the use of the home or curtilage were observed and there was no undue noise, no wind, dust, or threat of injury."23 In other words, there was no search within the meaning of the Fourth Amendment.
The majority of courts that have considered the use of thermal imagers have adopted the Penny-Feeney result but have employed slightly different analytical reasoning. One court reasoned that whether a subject takes no steps to prevent heat from escaping or actively vents it outside, both actions demonstrate a "lack of concern for the heat."24 Another court found that from the "balance of the evidence," the defendant had a subjective expectation of privacy because he concealed his growing operation in an underground structure; however, the court decided his expectation was objectively unreasonable.25 All courts upholding the warrantless use of thermal imagers have agreed on the importance of two factors: the lack of a physical intrusion into the targeted area and the scanned image's lack of intimate detail.




THE MINORITY VIEW The case of United States v. Cusumano26 expresses the minority view that the warrantless use of a thermal imager by the police violates the Fourth Amendment. This case was decided by a three judge panel of the federal Tenth Circuit Court of Appeals. When the judges heard the case, the panel was vacated because they concluded that the issue of using the thermal imager did not have to be resolved in this particular case. However, the panel's opinion remains a clear statement of the minority view.
The Facts In their affidavit for a search warrant, police in Cheyenne, Wyoming, included, among many other facts, the results of a warrantless thermal scan of the defendant's home and attach-ed garage. The thermal image showed a large hot spot on one wall of the garage and a number of hot spots along the roof and near the front door of the house.
When police executed their warrant, they found an indoor marijuana-growing operation in the basement. The defendants were indicted and convicted of manufacturing marijuana. On appeal, they contended that the warrantless use of the thermal imager violated their Fourth Amendment rights. A panel of the Tenth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals agreed.
Heat Reveals Private Activity in the Home Using the Katz analysis, the court concluded that the defendants had an actual expectation of privacy. This court, however, framed its inquiry quite differently. The court based its analytical framework on the private activities within the house that generated the heat rather than merely focused on the heat escaping from the house.
The court said heat emitted outside the home and measured by the thermal imager is directly related to, and a function of, activities going on in the home. Viewed from that perspective, the court reasoned that the thermal imager actually created a "heat signature"27 capable of revealing information about heat-generating activities going on inside the house. In other words, the imager painted a picture that police could translate into information regarding what the defendants were doing inside the building.
According to the Cusumano court, the question to ask is not whether the defendants expected the escaping heat to remain private, but whether they expected the indoor activities that the heat signature revealed to remain private. Clearly the defendants did, the court concluded, because they had hidden their operation in the basement and blocked the windows.
Obviously, the defendants did not take all possible steps to protect their operation from a thermal scan, but the court concluded that they should not have to anticipate and guard against "every investigative tool in the government's arsenal"28 in order to claim an actual expectation of privacy. Otherwise, the court said, the public would be at the mercy of advances in government technology, drawing citizens into a lopsided game of "hide and seek played by the government and the people."29
Protecting the Privacy of Activities Within the Home Is Objectively Reasonable The court then turned to Katz' second prong, whether the defendants' expectation of privacy was objectively reasonable. The court said the expectation that activities within someone's home would remain private is objectively reasonable because society still believes that activities carried on in the home, and not knowingly exposed to the public, should remain private. The defendants had met the second prong of the Katz test, as well. Consequently, the defendants had both an actual and an objectively reasonable expectation of privacy in the activities within their home. Therefore, the Court decided that this use of the thermal imager was a search, and the police should have obtained a warrant before scanning the home with a thermal imager.
Protecting the Sanctity of the Home The Cusumano court acknowledged the government's right to use modern technology to fight crime, but it refused to permit the warrantless use of technology that reduces the security of people in their homes. In that regard, the court cited the case of United States v. Karo30 to support its position. In Karo, the government placed a beeper inside a can of ether to track its movements. The beeper-laden can was taken into the defendant's house. Agents activated the beeper, revealing that the can was stored inside the residence. The Supreme Court condemned that particular use of the beeper as a warrantless search in violation of the Fourth Amendment. Using the beeper, the agents obtained information they could not have obtained from outside the curtilage of the house: namely, that the can of ether was inside.
The Cusumano court reasoned that the use of the thermal imager was similarly objectionable: It revealed information about activities going on inside the house that police could not obtain from outside the curtilage of the home. This revelation of a single detail about activities inside the home was sufficient to violate the Fourth Amendment. Moreover, the court did not believe that the heat signature of the defendants' home was in plain view or knowingly exposed to the public because it is not customary for individuals seeking privacy to control their heat emissions, and privacy should not "hinge upon the insulating capacity of the walls."31
The Voluntary Relinquishment Rationale The abandoned waste analogy was equally unconvincing to the Cusumano court. The relinquishment of control over heat emissions is hardly voluntary as it is with trash. The loss of heat is governed by the laws of physics and is not an area where people usually seek control to guard their privacy. In addition, while people expect that their trash may be invaded by scavengers, they hardly expect their homes to be scanned with thermal imagers.
For similar reasons, the court dismissed the analogy to a pen register. Because the telephone company is expected to record dialed numbers, users can be said to relinquish that information to the company voluntarily. For that reason, telephone users cannot be said to have either an actual or objective expectation of privacy in their dialing information. Therefore, police use of the pen register does not infringe upon any such expectation.
Distinguishing Lawful Activities from Contraband The dog sniff analogy offered a more precise comparison. However, the court noted that the dog sniff detects only contraband that a person may not possess legally. The thermal imager, on the other hand, identifies heat from both legal and illegal activities in the home. The court also noted that dog sniffs generally take place in public areas, such as airports or border crossings, while in this case, a private home was the target.
Many law review commentators echo the Cusumano panel view that the use of a thermal imager is a search requiring a warrant.32 Two state Supreme Courts have agreed.33

IMPLICATIONS FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT It is impossible to predict when, or even if, the U.S. Supreme Court will resolve this debate. In light of the disagreement over the warrantless use of thermal imagers, the following general guidelines for police officers using thermal imagers should ensure the lawful use of this technology.
Search Warrants Law enforcement officers should consult their legal advisors to determine whether a search warrant is required to use a thermal imager in their jurisdictions. Of course, search warrants are always preferred. Given the current debate over thermal imagery, a warrant should be obtained whenever possible before using the thermal imager.
Probable Cause None of the cases reviewed advocate that a thermal scan alone provides probable cause for a search. Heat is generated by many different activities, both legal and illegal. The results of a thermal scan provide but one of many facts the officer must combine into the mix of probable cause to obtain a search warrant and search the scanned building.
Placement of the Thermal Imager The courts that have upheld the warrantless use of thermal imagers have stressed that officers using the device did not physically intrude upon the area scanned. Scanners were aimed at the target by officers standing outside the curtilage of the home or business or from aircraft flying within navigable airspace above the area. Thermal scanning conducted from within the curtilage of a home or from a helicopter flying below navigable airspace is plainly more intrusive. Officers should ensure that any scan is conducted from a location where they have authority to be.
The Capability of the Thermal Imager One of the most important factors in this ongoing debate is the nature of the information the thermal imager provides. The Supreme Court has acknowledged that police may use new technology to enforce the laws34 but has cautioned that there are limits: "An electronic device to penetrate walls or windows so as to hear and record confidential discussions... would raise very different and far more serious questions...."35
Does the thermal imager penetrate walls and reveal such "intimate details"36 so as to implicate the Fourth Amendment? One federal court has noted that infrared photographs of a mobile home revealed rafters inside and that the home appeared to be split into two rooms.37 If FLIR devices do reveal such intimate detail, either directly or through interpretation of the images, the argument against warrantless use of the device is stronger. If, on the other hand, the device merely reveals whether one structure is emitting more heat than another, the argument against warrantless use is weaker.
Officers using thermal imagers should document clearly the capabilities of their machines. A reviewing court certainly will inquire whether the particular imager can distinguish intimate details within the targeted building. Videotapes or still photographs of any thermal images should be made and retained for the court to see. Interpretation of the thermal images should be limited to the question of whether the targeted structure is emitting substantially more infrared radiation than similar structures in the area.
Technological innovation, like thermal imaging, continually will test the meaning and limits of the Fourth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. The U.S. Supreme Court will no doubt have to shed additional light on the issue before the debate over the use of thermal imaging will cool.

ENDNOTES

  • 1. Johnson v. United States, 333 U.S. 10, at 14 (1948). 2. Michael L. Huskins, Marijuana Hot Spots: Infrared Imaging and the Fourth Amendment, 63 U. Chi. L. Rev. 655, at 660 (Spring 1996). 3. Growing marijuana indoors requires the use of powerful artificial lights to simulate sunlight. These powerful lights generate a great deal of heat. That heat must be expelled to avoid killing the plants. 4. U.S. Const. Amend IV reads: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects against unreasonable searches and seizures shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched and the persons or things to be seized." 5. 389 U.S. 347 (1967). 6. Id. at 351. 7. Id. at 361 (J. Harlan, concurring). 8. Id. at 357. 9. 333 U.S. 10, at 14. 10. See e.g., United States v. Pinson, 24 F.3d 1056 (8th Cir. 1994); United States v. Ford, 34 F.3d 992 (11th Cir. 1994); United States v. Robinson, 39 F.3d 891 (8th Cir. 1994); United States v. Myers, 46 F.3d 668 (7th Cir. 1995); United States v. Ishmael, 48 F.3d 850 (5th Cir. 1995); United States v. Robinson, 62 F.3d 1325 (11th Cir. 1995). 11. 773F.Supp. 220, (D. Hawaii 1991), aff'd on other grounds, 984 F.2d 1053 (9th Cir. 1993). On appeal, the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals declined to address the use of FLIR because it felt police had sufficient probable cause for the search independent of FLIR readings. 12. Id. at 225. 13. Id. 14. Id. 15. California v. Greenwood, 486 U.S. 35 (1987). 16. 460 U.S. 276 (1983). 17. 462 U.S. 696 (1983). 18. 442 U.S. 735 (1979). 19. 536 F.2d 880 (9th Cir. 1976). 20. 476 U.S. 207 (1986). The defendant shielded his backyard marijuana plants with two high fences. Police use of an airplane to see the plants from 1,000 feet overhead was not a search under the Fourth Amendment. 21. 448 U.S. 445 (1989). The defendant grew marijuana in a greenhouse located 10 to 20 feet behind his home. The home and greenhouse were surrounded by barbed wire posted with a Do Not Enter sign. Police used a helicopter flying at 400 feet to look through holes in the roof to see the marijuana. The Court held that was not a Fourth Amendment search. 22. 773 F. Supp. at 228. 23. Id. (Emphasis the court's). 24. United States v. Robinson, 62 F.3d 1325 (11th Cir. 1995), at 1329. "...the record does not indicate that he took any action to prevent the resulting heat from being emitted into the atmosphere above his house... Robinson's inaction regarding the heat generated from his marijuana cultivation demonstrates his lack of concern for it. Thus we conclude that Robinson has not established a subjective expectation of privacy in this heat emitted from his home." (Emphasis the court's). 25. 48 F.3d at 857. "The device, when used in an open field, does not offend the Fourth Amendment because it is passive and non-intrusive. The sanctity of one's home or business is undisturbed." 26. 67 F.3d 1497 (10th Cir. 1995), vacated on rehearing en banc, 83 F.3d 1247 (10th Cir. 1996). 27. Id. at 1501. 28. Id. at 1503. 29. Id. at 1505-1506. 30. 468 U.S. 705 (1984). 31. 67 F.3d at 1507. 32. See e.g., Michael L. Huskins, Marijuana Hot Spots: Infrared Imaging and the Fourth Amendment, 63 Chi. L. Rev. 655 (Spring 1996); James Francis Barna, Reforming the Katz Fourth Amendment "Reasonable Expectation of Privacy" Test: The Case of Infrared Surveillance of Homes, 49 Wash. U. J. Urb. & Contemp. L. 247 (Summer 1996); Michael D. O'Mara, Thermal Surveillance and the Fourth Amendment: Heating Up the War on Drugs, 100 Dick. L. Rev. 415 (Winter 1996); Jonathon Todd Laba, If You Can't Stand the Heat, Get Out of the Drug Business: Thermal Imager, Emerging Technologies, and the Fourth Amendment, 84 Calif. L. Rev. 1437 (October, 1996). 33. State v. Young, 867 P.2d 593 (Wash. 1994) (The use of the thermal imager is a violation of both the Washington state and the federal constitutions.); State v. Siegal, 934 P.2d 176 (Mont. 1997) (Use of a thermal imager in a law enforcement context is a search under the Montana Constitution.). 34. Dow Chemical Co. v. United States, 476 U.S. 227 (1986). 35. Id. at 239. 36. Id. at 238. 37. United States v. Olson, 21 F.3d 847 (8th Cir. 1994) at 848, note 5. The court did not reach the issue of the use of the FLIR device, holding there was sufficient other evidence to support a finding of probable cause.
 

SableZen

Well-Known Member
OK, I give up. I guess the reason there are numerous documented cases of grow operations being detected by thermal imaging proves nothing. Strange though, has anyone heard of someone being raided because they had a wood burning stove in their house?
You are right - a wood burning stove can appear to be a possible marijuana grow to police using FLIR:

Police raid suspected cannabis factory - and find wood burning stove

Police raided a property after heat-seeking cameras identified a suspected cannabis factory – only to discover nothing more sinister than a wood-burning stove.



By Richard Edwards, Crime Correspondent
Published: 2:29PM GMT 27 Feb 2009

Colin Rowe with the door the Police smashed in at his work shop

Photo: ROSS PARRY




Officers obtained a search warrant and broke through a door at Colin Rowe's workshop in Huddersfield, Yorks, after an infra-red police helicopter camera picked up unusual heat patterns from the house.

They looked high and low for the cannabis plants, even breaking a flowerpot in the process, but found that the heat source was simply a stove used to warm the garage workshop where Mr Rowe restores cars in his spare time.

The 41-year-old college technician was furious when he returned home to find the damaged door and the warrant, which had been posted through his letterbox without an apology.

Mr Rowe said: "I find it quite disturbing that Wild West Yorkshire Police can do what they want. I think it is disgraceful, I didn't think the police would treat anyone like this without good reason," he said. "My dad was a police officer for 40 years and he's disgusted about this."


It appears Mr Rowe's crime prevention measures may have also heightened the police's suspicions. Bars on windows at the back of his property - which he fitted to keep burglars out - were seen as a sign that he could be a cannabis "farmer" keen to protect his illegal crop.


Mr Rowe, 41, who has no previous convictions, said: "I think it's a pretty poor way for them to behave given that I'm not the sort of person who's known to the police."


Commenting on the damage, he said: "There was a big hole in the door which was large enough to get your arm through, the hinges were bent, there were bits of wood on the floor and one of my plant pots was broken.

"There was a brush and shovel right by the door so, if they'd had any compassion, they would have at least swept up the mess.'


Mr Rowe went to his local police station in Huddersfield, West Yorkshire, to complain and spoke to the policewoman who applied for the warrant. She said a police helicopter "had noted the heat source from my home."


He added: "She said they sent a patrol to my house and found I had bars on the windows at the back. That's to prevent burglary - I don't think it's excessive.


"I've been given a form to claim compensation and I hope the police will pay for the damage."


A West Yorkshire Police spokesman confirmed officers executed a drugs warrant at 9.45 am last Friday. "During the execution of the warrant a door to an external building was forced. Officers located no drugs and arrangements were made for the door to be left secure.


"No entry was made by officers into the main house itself. It is standard policy that we will pay for repairs in such circumstances and we would be happy to discuss any concerns Mr Rowe has."


Mr Rowe shares the house with wife Beth, a 40-year-old health visitor. The door has cost £200 to repair and he has had to take time off work because of the police raid.

Wouldn't that make a room look an awful lot like a grow room? Why has the court ruled that the use of such technology REQUIRES A WARRANT AND IS LEGALY CONSIDERED A SEARCH?
Yes - example cited above. I'm not a lawyer but this is how I understand the law with FLIR use: Law enforcement in the US does not require a warrant to use FLIR in most cases. There is no 'reasonable expectation of privacy' from aircraft looking at your neighborhood/house/yard/outdoor property, nor is there any legal reason law enforcement can't look at the heat your house and others are emitting to the outside. Similar to the rulings that law enforcement officers do not require a warrant to look at anything 'in plain view' inside of your car.


Another thing - there are other similar forums out there and the same thing happens. One guy states some opinion and the guys who know him back him up regardless of the facts. On other similar forums the consensus is that they CAN see through walls and ceilings and if I said they can't there would be a similar group of regulars that would argue the opposite. I have read through threads with guys claiming to have first hand knowledge of this technology seeing through everything save several feet of dirt and concrete with the same vigor in which you guys are saying it can't.

Clearly, people are getting busted by this technology - believe what you wish I don't care.
If you've read that FLIR can see through several feet of dirt and concrete - cite the source for us here. I'm betting that at best, someone has just given anecdotal opinion without the least understanding. Because IR can't see through anything - it simply shows radiated surface heat from the most external object. FLIR is passive just like your eyes, it cannot see through things; unlike x-rays, millimeter wave technology, radar, etc which are all active systems and can 'see through' objects. FLIR just doesn't work that way even with active IR systems that use an IR spotlight for better resolution.

Again though, never argued people aren't or can't get busted. But reality is that FLIR can't/hasn't been able to even catch a small fraction of all the grows going on out there because so many of them are just smaller personal grows (under ~2,000w'ish of lighting) which produce relatively very little heat as far as a house is concerned. But even less people would get busted by FLIR if there was more understanding and less paranoia. Yes, big commercial grow ops in a residential neighborhoods... there's a good chance that LEO will take an interest if they see the house standing out unusually from the others around it. Otherwise, your biggest worry should be how/where you exhaust.

Put it through a common sense test. It would be a different story if FLIR could see through feet of dirt/concrete, make out individual grow lights, squirrel cage fans, people, etc. inside of buildings... this site likely wouldn't even exist if that were the case (except maybe the outdoor growing section) as a majority of us would be in jail. Don't know what else to say. :hug:
 

doobnVA

Well-Known Member
You are right - a wood burning stove can appear to be a possible marijuana grow to police using FLIR:

Police raid suspected cannabis factory - and find wood burning stove

Police raided a property after heat-seeking cameras identified a suspected cannabis factory – only to discover nothing more sinister than a wood-burning stove.



By Richard Edwards, Crime Correspondent
Published: 2:29PM GMT 27 Feb 2009

Colin Rowe with the door the Police smashed in at his work shop
+rep for SableZen.

I remember reading about this story not so long ago. Glad you posted it so I didn't have to Google it up kiss-ass

Too funny how he pretty much set that up for you, too.
 

bgmike8

Well-Known Member
I'm not an expert on all the latest technologies but I'm telling you I saw a video of a police helicopter following a fleeing suspect and this technology showed every thing inside every house they flew over. The hottest things were red in the middle followed by yellow and finally blue rings as the coolest. Just before the guy blows his brains out in some guys back yard you can see the man walking around inside the house along with every single incandescent bulb in the house and the heat signature of every appliance.

I think you guys are looking at old outdated technology. Don't let your assumptions bite you in the ass.

this guy just keeps going on and fucking on about some fucking vents that he saw on a goddamned roof. if you watch that fucking video again you can see that they are vents that are just barely warmer than the roof. they show up when the heli starts to circle. do you think that that was the only house out of 30 that had people in it? holy shit. at least have the fucking decency to keep your halucinations to yourself man.
 

katman94

Active Member
OK guys I have a bit of a question, Im about to be running a 1000 watt HPS and a 250 watt MH in the same room about a 11 by 11 area...I will be running a 5,000 BTU AC(No hot air will be moved out of this room)and I will have the 1000 burning 12/12 during the day, light hours, 250 18/6...If I were to keep the room 78 and the surrounding rooms 78 and I used this product on every square inch
http://www.homedepot.com/Building-Materials-Insulation-Reflective/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1xr5Zbedf/R-100012574/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

Would I be fine against IR or FLIR, Im a bit paranoid, this is strictly personal, no traffic to this house besides me, I would use a product named Block-IR, but this is cheaper and sounds very alike

Thanks guys just a curious george here
 

mindphuk

Well-Known Member
OK guys I have a bit of a question, Im about to be running a 1000 watt HPS and a 250 watt MH in the same room about a 11 by 11 area...I will be running a 5,000 BTU AC(No hot air will be moved out of this room)and I will have the 1000 burning 12/12 during the day, light hours, 250 18/6...If I were to keep the room 78 and the surrounding rooms 78 and I used this product on every square inch
http://www.homedepot.com/Building-Materials-Insulation-Reflective/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1xr5Zbedf/R-100012574/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

Would I be fine against IR or FLIR, Im a bit paranoid, this is strictly personal, no traffic to this house besides me, I would use a product named Block-IR, but this is cheaper and sounds very alike

Thanks guys just a curious george here
You don't need to install all of that. 1200 watts is not enough to worry about. Even more so since your a/c will lower the temps on on the areas of your building that can be looked at with flir.
 

katman94

Active Member
You don't need to install all of that. 1200 watts is not enough to worry about. Even more so since your a/c will lower the temps on on the areas of your building that can be looked at with flir.
Ya man, are you sure?

In my city Im hearing 69 plant busts, if you counted clones, moms and budding ladies, Id have that...off course they don't tell wattage's, also I'm most likely gonna add a mover(dunno if that makes it worse)

Tell me if its just my paranoia, I hear under 2000 watts your cool
 

pastafarian81

Well-Known Member
OK guys I have a bit of a question, Im about to be running a 1000 watt HPS and a 250 watt MH in the same room about a 11 by 11 area...I will be running a 5,000 BTU AC(No hot air will be moved out of this room)and I will have the 1000 burning 12/12 during the day, light hours, 250 18/6...If I were to keep the room 78 and the surrounding rooms 78 and I used this product on every square inch
http://www.homedepot.com/Building-Materials-Insulation-Reflective/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1xr5Zbedf/R-100012574/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

Would I be fine against IR or FLIR, Im a bit paranoid, this is strictly personal, no traffic to this house besides me, I would use a product named Block-IR, but this is cheaper and sounds very alike

Thanks guys just a curious george here
you are keeping the 250 separate from your 1000 right.
 

SableZen

Well-Known Member
OK guys I have a bit of a question, Im about to be running a 1000 watt HPS and a 250 watt MH in the same room about a 11 by 11 area...I will be running a 5,000 BTU AC(No hot air will be moved out of this room)and I will have the 1000 burning 12/12 during the day, light hours, 250 18/6...If I were to keep the room 78 and the surrounding rooms 78 and I used this product on every square inch
http://www.homedepot.com/Building-Materials-Insulation-Reflective/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1xr5Zbedf/R-100012574/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

Would I be fine against IR or FLIR, Im a bit paranoid, this is strictly personal, no traffic to this house besides me, I would use a product named Block-IR, but this is cheaper and sounds very alike

Thanks guys just a curious george here
What are you going to do with the A/C exhaust heat if not moving it outside or to another interior room?

Let's see if this makes sense (by the way, this is just personal opinion not based on personal testing)... but there is probably very little reason to use a reflective insulator on the whole room (when concerned about IR emission). Consider that it is only going to redirect radiant heat transfer directly to surfaces receiving direct radiation from the light - secondary conductive and convective heat will still travel through to external surfaces or through the air and eventually turn into radiant heat again...

The only exception I know would be if you have your lights/exhaust directly up against or in an external wall, it may then be prudent to use both a radiant and traditional insulator (look for a good R [resistance] value) on that one wall or surface simply so that it doesn't heat up relative to other surfaces.

Otherwise, for our purposes, convective and conductive heat transfer through the entire house as a whole should receive more attention - as that is how a majority of the heat will end up being radiated to the outside eventually... and this is what a FLIR operator would be able to see as unusual when compared to surrounding houses. The attic roof, and to a lesser extent external walls, may become noticeably hotter than the neighbors if you are running enough heat-generating-watts. [And in most cases, ~1,500w is probably not enough to make a house-sized structure stand out significantly.]

Or in other words, if you feel you need to insulate - insulate with more than just a reflective (radiant-blocking) material so you can also control conductive and convective heat transfer in specific areas as well. But don't go overboard with reflective insulation thinking it will make a whole house or room 'IR-proof'.

So tied into all of that, the other thing is that an A/C system won't get rid of heat (reason I asked about it first). An A/C will just allow you to move convective heat around (usually just immediately away from the plants).

What that leaves us with is that reflective insulation has its uses, but it is limited to controlling potential radiant heat by redirecting it away from specific internal surfaces to others (or the air) - where it will still spread out through conductive and convective transfers to the entire structure as a whole...

Sorry if that is hard to follow... Saturday morning is wake and bake day for me. :weed:
 

katman94

Active Member
Alright well suppose I hooked up my Axial fan and sent the exhaust air to another room or a hall way, Its a new place so Im kind of unaware on how its insulated, I figured this would possibly be a double header, being I need reflective material anyway...Luckily I picked this place because where the grow room will be, they would have no where to use the hand tester, surrounded by neighbors

So I guess here's my question, I can most likely piece together the money for IR Block but would I need the whole room covered? and is there any other insulation or measures you would recommend...Thanks man I know its a lot of questions, Ive just seen videos of this FLIR seeing people running in the forest....I figure If they can see that they'll see two bright bulbs burning!
 
Top