Growing with LED's?????

la9 said:

More Funny talk, If I owned one I wouldn't be talking bad about them. You are the expert because you own one. Give us all a break.

How deep do you want to get into LED's ? Reason number one they suck because they are too directional. Do you want to spend the night discussing angles and all that BS ? Did that come in your UFO literature ?

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That's why you get batwing reflector LEDs and not the shitty ones that they sell on ebay. Did that come in your so called 'UFO literature'?

la9 said:

Reason number 2 they suck because they do not penetrate the plant well enough to cause proper photosynthesis, that is why you get stringy plants under LED. Do you want to get into plant Botany and all that ? Did that come in your UFO literature ?

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Your facts are straight up incorrect. I grow plants under LEDs. The fact that they grow means that photosynthesis occurs. And yes, actually, I would love to get into plant Botany. I find the information facinating.

la9 said:

Reason number 3 the suck becuase I have experimented with them, do you want to debate my results ? Is that in your UFO literature also?

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I don't even understand where you are going now. What literature are you talking about, and why would it have anything about what you have done in it. You seem to be really pissed off, but whatever. What experiments have you done with them, and what results have you gotten? What products have you used and under what conditions were they grown?

la9 said:

Reason number 4, tell me to stop insulting someone then insult me by saying I don't know what I'm talking about ?

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So... reason why LEDs suck number four is becuase I insulted you? seems like a valid point. But wait a minuite. where did I say you didn't know what you were talking about? Quote me. Tell me where I insulted you and said you don't know what you are doing.

la9 said:

Reason number 5, I can give all the factual reasons in the world why LED's suck and all I get in return is name calling, told I don't know what I'm talking about, that what I'm saying is only opinion and I don't know what I'm talking about and nothing ever remotely close to why my answers are not correct. So I can only guess that I am correct.

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That's not even a reason, or a number, your just rambling like a pissed off little kid. There you go, that's the first name calling I did. And I'm actually sorry about it. Really I am. But I never said you don't know what you are tlaking about, nor did I say anything about your growing abilities, or your experience.

la9 said:

Reason number 6, you need to apologize to me and quit trying to make it look like you are an expert because you can spend $600 on something that does not work as advertised or even close.

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HAHAHAHA I need to apologize to you? or what, you are going to go tell the teacher? grow up kid. I'll do whatever the fuck I want. Don't like it? Sucks to be you.

Never claimed to be an expert, you will likewise never see that in a post before. I just claim to give my personal experience with growing with LEDs, which is more than speculation, heresay, and bad mouthing.

If you have something additional to contribute to the coversation about the effectiveness of LEDs, feel free. If you would like to continue a name calling match, shouting match, or pissing contest like we are both back in middle school, feel free, but I won't participate in it. You can do it by yourself.

more chance of a rockin' horse doin' a shit... happy days

I'm glad that not everyone thinks in the same way......or nothing revolutionary and world changing would ever happen....no one would get crazy arsed ideas and follow them into the unknown to discover different ways of perceiving this amazing world we all share......and nothing would change........boring........so,,I'm going to take a minute to appreciate our diversity and bless our singular endeavors on this earth with good fortune....

People need to do what they need to do....its one thing to inform a person and a completely different thing to abuse a person for their choices
I know 1 thing we all LOVE

fair enough

jats said:

I'm glad that not everyone thinks in the same way......or nothing revolutionary and world changing would ever happen....no one would get crazy arsed ideas and follow them into the unknown to discover different ways of perceiving this amazing world we all share......and nothing would change........boring........so,,I'm going to take a minute to appreciate our diversity and bless our singular endeavors on this earth with good fortune....

People need to do what they need to do....its one thing to inform a person and a completely different thing to abuse a person for their choices
I know 1 thing we all LOVE

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Let me see, LED's are invented, they were used as grow lights, and the results are in, they do not beat any of the main sources of lighting, right now.

How that pertains to all this close minded thinking I'll never know, just because the answers aren't what you think they should be.

Tell us how to open our minds ? Keep testing the same test over and over again hoping the results will be different.

Look at transistors, they put them in a radio and they worked better than tubes so the tubes got replaced.

Look at LED's, they put them in grow lights, they performed worse, so they won't be replacing them with LED's.

Open your mind and understand they are not a good choice for growing plants with. They do work well as indicator lights and billboard signs.

specialkayme said:

That's why you get batwing reflector LEDs and not the shitty ones that they sell on ebay. Did that come in your so called 'UFO literature'?



Your facts are straight up incorrect. I grow plants under LEDs. The fact that they grow means that photosynthesis occurs. And yes, actually, I would love to get into plant Botany. I find the information facinating.



I don't even understand where you are going now. What literature are you talking about, and why would it have anything about what you have done in it. You seem to be really pissed off, but whatever. What experiments have you done with them, and what results have you gotten? What products have you used and under what conditions were they grown?



So... reason why LEDs suck number four is becuase I insulted you? seems like a valid point. But wait a minuite. where did I say you didn't know what you were talking about? Quote me. Tell me where I insulted you and said you don't know what you are doing.



That's not even a reason, or a number, your just rambling like a pissed off little kid. There you go, that's the first name calling I did. And I'm actually sorry about it. Really I am. But I never said you don't know what you are tlaking about, nor did I say anything about your growing abilities, or your experience.



HAHAHAHA I need to apologize to you? or what, you are going to go tell the teacher? grow up kid. I'll do whatever the fuck I want. Don't like it? Sucks to be you.

Never claimed to be an expert, you will likewise never see that in a post before. I just claim to give my personal experience with growing with LEDs, which is more than speculation, heresay, and bad mouthing.

If you have something additional to contribute to the coversation about the effectiveness of LEDs, feel free. If you would like to continue a name calling match, shouting match, or pissing contest like we are both back in middle school, feel free, but I won't participate in it. You can do it by yourself.

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You said you were going to fill us in on plant botany so go for it.

Tell us all about the effectiveness of LED's, you have to talk about another subject than growing since they are ineffective at that.

All you keep saying is my facts are incorrect and you are growing just fine with LED's, of course adding nothing to the conversation.

You still need to apologize to me for acting like an ass.

Now that I think about it, there is no way to improve LED grow lighting. You guys argue their is no problems with LED grow lights and they work just fine. Everytime someone mentions a problem they are told that they are wrong.

So how do you improve LED lighting ? Improvements come by discovering problems with the item you are dealing with and eliminating them or improving upon the weaknesses.

You guys won't admit to one thing being wrong with LED lighting, heck they Veg just fine and even better than anything I'd ever use.

You can't improve something that is perfect. So see how closed thinking you guys are ? I would guess not.

Okay, since we're still arguing here, I'm just going to leave this here: Words from someone with a PhD in the Horticultural Sciences. This came from a conversation I had with the good doctor concerning potential alternative lighting methods.

Q -- I'm curious as to your opinion on the future of indoor light systems for
horticulture. It seems as though T5 fluorescent is catching on bigtime, but
I'm curious as to LED lighting. It makes sense to target just the specific
wavelengths that plants use, however I would be concerned about performance
when it comes to plants with denser foliage, like rosemary bushes,
philodendron vines, rose bushes, etc. Do you think LEDs can achieve the
necessary canopy penetration, or will we be stuck having an LED dome for our
plants to live in so they get adequate lighting, should that lighting ever
take off? Also, I've seen lighting systems for offices that use light
conduits to capture light from outside and concentrate it inside. Do you
think that would work as a good way to light up an indoor horticultural
area?

Sincerely,
Kali




A--. Opinion questions are easy, you can’t be wrong
I am an HID kinda guy. I like the T5, it is a big improvement over your
standard 4’ fluorescents (which work fine w/ seedlings). I like the
output and flowering response of the HPS, although I use MH in my
greenhouse too. I have read a bit about LED as a light source for plants.
Right now, it seems scientists are still in the preliminary stage of LED
development. From reading scientific literature, I know that you CAN grow
plants using combinations of red and blue LED, but that does not mean that
you WILL grow the plants to their fullest potential. When comparing the
plants biomass and yield, I have never seen any LED combination beat a
400W MH, let alone a 400W HPS for flowering. You mention another possible
Achilles' heel of the LED, they generally have lower output, meaning that
like florescent lights you need to keep the LED close(less than one foot
away ) to the plants. I have heard people say LED’s don’t need to be kept
close, but never seen it in person or in scientific literature. So, the
problem is that if the plants get taller than one foot, the light will not
get to the bottom of the plant. You will only have good growth on the top
1 foot of the plant, unless you create some side lighting (a dome of
light, as you suggested in your question). That does not mean that new LED technologies will not get better,
I am sure they will, I just don’t know when or if they will ever match the
light output of any HID.
Your last point is very interesting. I don’t know how well the intensity
of sunlight travels through the fiber optics or what ever medium is used
to move the sunlight. I imagine that light intensity would be quite low
after the light is moved through some type of conduit. Even with low
output I can see how transmitting sunlight might help to give plants all
the necessary light wavelengths (assuming the conduit does not filter any
type of light out) which might improve flowering or other physiological
responses.


BOLD EMPHASIS MINE

That's coming from someone with a DOCTORATE. If you're going to say they're wrong then I suggest you start writing your Master's Thesis *NOW*

la9 said:

You said you were going to fill us in on plant botany so go for it.

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Yet again, I never said I would fill anyone in on plant botany. I did say that I was interested in a conversation about botany. Read the post before you accuse.

la9 said:

All you keep saying is my facts are incorrect and you are growing just fine with LED's, of course adding nothing to the conversation.

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And you keep adding nothing by just saying that they suck. I don't have a PhD in Botany (like the post above, good info btw), or in Electrical Engineering. But I don't think you need a PhD to be able to take a plant, put it under a light, watch it grow, and claim that it actually does grow.

Are LEDs the most efficient light source? Certainly not. Do they beat HPS? I'm certainly not claiming that they do. But in my opinion, they have certain advantages for some growers in certain situations. If you arn't one of those people, or in one of those situations, or just don't want to try, I'm sure as hell not going to make you, but don't hold other people back from trying.

Since you dodged my question earlier, I'll ask it again. You said that you had experience with LEDs. So which ones? What brand? What model? How did it go?

la9 said:

You still need to apologize to me for acting like an ass.

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Keep dreaming. Don't be an ass and I won't act like one to you.

la9 said:

More Funny talk, If I owned one I wouldn't be talking bad about them. You are the expert because you own one. Give us all a break.

How deep do you want to get into LED's ? Reason number one they suck because they are too directional. Do you want to spend the night discussing angles and all that BS ? Did that come in your UFO literature ?

Reason number 2 they suck because they do not penetrate the plant well enough to cause proper photosynthesis, that is why you get stringy plants under LED. Do you want to get into plant Botany and all that ? Did that come in your UFO literature ?

Reason number 3 the suck becuase I have experimented with them, do you want to debate my results ? Is that in your UFO literature also?

Reason number 4, tell me to stop insulting someone then insult me by saying I don't know what I'm talking about ?

Reason number 5, I can give all the factual reasons in the world why LED's suck and all I get in return is name calling, told I don't know what I'm talking about, that what I'm saying is only opinion and I don't know what I'm talking about and nothing ever remotely close to why my answers are not correct. So I can only guess that I am correct.

Reason number 6, you need to apologize to me and quit trying to make it look like you are an expert because you can spend $600 on something that does not work as advertised or even close.

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everyone name calls u and gives u shit for ur knowledge because of u fake threads and copy all the knowledge of other people in earlier debates of LEd and the UFOs..i wanna hear and see ur experience with LED that u dont fake

I'm using a bank of three 45w, mixed red and blue. I also have two 2bulb 40" T5's arranged on the outside. I also have a 400w MH and HPS but I'm not going to use them unless I see really shitty results. Lights do not get any more efficient than an LED; they are 99% efficient. They put off almost no heat; I can hold mine in my hand and it's barely warm. The panels I have are 12" x 12" and the LED's are 1/2" tall and 3/8" wide so they are not the dinky little things. For a 45w light, they are the brightest thing I've ever seen; if you look directly into them you'll be seeing spots for a couple of minutes. I bought the LED's because I live in a hot climate and I can't cool my grow cabinet. Last year my cabinet stayed above 90 most of the time even though I have a ducted fan running 24/7. I just sprouted 7 white widows and will be starting my grow journal soon so stay tuned.

BTW:

They put off almost no heat?

I dare you to try holding a 5w lumilux LED - those things come with built-in heat sinks for a BIG reason. If you can hold your LEDs, you're not putting out nearly enough photon flux density to really help your plant.

Even the new household LED bulbs come with mostly heatsink around them.

People fail to understand thermodynamics. You know why there's so much heat even with cool tubes around an HPS/MH? There's enough photon density to create heat, just like the sun.

99% efficiency? Not even, and that's coming from someone with some engineering experience. The bulb itself is efficient once it has prime conditioned power, yes. The controlling and regulating electronics ARE NOT. At best, the electronics themselves are about 85% efficient given the resistance of the materials required to control such power flow. I doubt you'll find a single LED array that can boast the E85 power supply regulation sticker, because those electronics haven't made it to that efficiency, yet.

KaliKitsune said:

They put off almost no heat?
I dare you to try holding a 5w lumilux LED - those things come with built-in heat sinks for a BIG reason.

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I remember saying this one other time in here somewhere, any person or retailer that claims theres no heat in LED lighting was either not using enough LEDs or has never ever used a proper LED lamp.

Im running 112 watts of LEDs in a 12volts array and there is enough heat to heat up my grow closet to 25 degrees celcius.

I have 3 boxes, a cloning box, a vegging box and 2 flowering boxes. I use to use the 225 blue/red (ebay special) to supplement my 7 or 8 CFLs. The box with that extra LED light board, the plants seemed a lot more crystally, not bigger or anything, just seemed to have more crystal, and when smoking them side by side, the one with that extra LED board seems to give a little stronger of a high... but if I were to do it all again, I'd save that extra cash from those LED boards and buy another Oz of bud.

la9 said:

Let me see, LED's are invented, they were used as grow lights, and the results are in, they do not beat any of the main sources of lighting, right now.

How that pertains to all this close minded thinking I'll never know, just because the answers aren't what you think they should be.

Tell us how to open our minds ? Keep testing the same test over and over again hoping the results will be different.

Look at transistors, they put them in a radio and they worked better than tubes so the tubes got replaced.

Look at LED's, they put them in grow lights, they performed worse, so they won't be replacing them with LED's.

Open your mind and understand they are not a good choice for growing plants with. They do work well as indicator lights and billboard signs.

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You go and play with your magnets and leave us in peace to play with our LED's

KaliKitsune said:

Okay, since we're still arguing here, I'm just going to leave this here: Words from someone with a PhD in the Horticultural Sciences. This came from a conversation I had with the good doctor concerning potential alternative lighting methods.

Q -- I'm curious as to your opinion on the future of indoor light systems for
horticulture. It seems as though T5 fluorescent is catching on bigtime, but
I'm curious as to LED lighting. It makes sense to target just the specific
wavelengths that plants use, however I would be concerned about performance
when it comes to plants with denser foliage, like rosemary bushes,
philodendron vines, rose bushes, etc. Do you think LEDs can achieve the
necessary canopy penetration, or will we be stuck having an LED dome for our
plants to live in so they get adequate lighting, should that lighting ever
take off? Also, I've seen lighting systems for offices that use light
conduits to capture light from outside and concentrate it inside. Do you
think that would work as a good way to light up an indoor horticultural
area?

Sincerely,
Kali




A--. Opinion questions are easy, you can’t be wrong
I am an HID kinda guy. I like the T5, it is a big improvement over your
standard 4’ fluorescents (which work fine w/ seedlings). I like the
output and flowering response of the HPS, although I use MH in my
greenhouse too. I have read a bit about LED as a light source for plants.
Right now, it seems scientists are still in the preliminary stage of LED
development. From reading scientific literature, I know that you CAN grow
plants using combinations of red and blue LED, but that does not mean that
you WILL grow the plants to their fullest potential. When comparing the
plants biomass and yield, I have never seen any LED combination beat a
400W MH, let alone a 400W HPS for flowering. You mention another possible
Achilles' heel of the LED, they generally have lower output, meaning that
like florescent lights you need to keep the LED close(less than one foot
away ) to the plants. I have heard people say LED’s don’t need to be kept
close, but never seen it in person or in scientific literature. So, the
problem is that if the plants get taller than one foot, the light will not
get to the bottom of the plant. You will only have good growth on the top
1 foot of the plant, unless you create some side lighting (a dome of
light, as you suggested in your question). That does not mean that new LED technologies will not get better,
I am sure they will, I just don’t know when or if they will ever match the
light output of any HID.
Your last point is very interesting. I don’t know how well the intensity
of sunlight travels through the fiber optics or what ever medium is used
to move the sunlight. I imagine that light intensity would be quite low
after the light is moved through some type of conduit. Even with low
output I can see how transmitting sunlight might help to give plants all
the necessary light wavelengths (assuming the conduit does not filter any
type of light out) which might improve flowering or other physiological
responses.


BOLD EMPHASIS MINE

That's coming from someone with a DOCTORATE. If you're going to say they're wrong then I suggest you start writing your Master's Thesis *NOW*

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and...? this person knows nothing about LEDs....said so themselves

oh yeah...they don't teach them yet at uni

Also, I should mention, I asked the local grow shop about LEDs and they said they bought that expensive UFO LED light and it performs about the same as a 150W HPS. I think the big deal it the fact that they provide a lot of the red and blues that way it can compensate for the HPS just putting out RED and the MH putting out only blue. I think that's why it worked for me, it added that needed blue light that my CFLs do not provide

dirtydave420 said:

just wondering wet everyone thinks about the concept of growing your favorite vegtable with those 225 led banks.. seems to me that its a break threw in the indoor growing world... i was reading up on them and was also wondering wut would be better to use should i just spring for the full red or use the mixed blue and red... blue being veg. red being flower

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dont waste ur time and money there pieces of sh*t better off with hps
and no its not a breakthough its a f*ckin disgrace 2 the indoor grow world
do some more reading how 2 grow a plant

im tired of people talking about those pieces of crap

benzo said:

dont waste ur time and money there pieces of sh*t better off with hps
and no its not a breakthough its a f*ckin disgrace 2 the indoor grow world
do some more reading how 2 grow a plant

im tired of people talking about those pieces of crap

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That was really uncalled for.

benzo said:

dont waste ur time and money there pieces of sh*t better off with hps
and no its not a breakthough its a f*ckin disgrace 2 the indoor grow world
do some more reading how 2 grow a plant

im tired of people talking about those pieces of crap

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wow lets see and hear ur experience with these lights????sounds like u know alot about how LED is for growing so enlighten us with ur knowledge on the "pieces of sh*t"...im pretty sure LED matches the exact ratio plants need to grow perfectly fine and doing reading on how 2 grow a plant wont tell u that LED is bad because LED work great for every other plant except budding weed..and how is adding new light technology ever a disgrace to any world??