God and Free Will.

Snow Crash

Snow Crash

Well-Known Member
HuffPuppy said:
Recently many scientists are recalling their stance on the Big Bang, stating that research and observations show that it could not have happened as they theorized.
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Gotta love that string theory. A moment of perfect symmetry acting as a mirror to the alpha and the omega reflecting a single reverberating message.

It has all happened before, and it will happen again. It is all just a Planck length away.

I dropped like 4 nerdy inside jokes in that.
 
H

HuffPuppy

Member
"Werner Heisenberg went for a drive and got stopped by a traffic cop. The cop asked, "Do you know how fast you were going?" Heisenberg replied, "No, but I know where I am." - True story from Munich circa mid-1900's
 
Ganjasism

Ganjasism

Active Member
I don't want to piss people off with my opinions about religion (which I do not care for) but, it seems that most people (without thinking) automatically approach this topic from the viewpoint of the "bible". Well let's take into consideration, who wrote the books of the bible? What nation were these people from? The "god" of the bible, whose "god" was he? I mean, come on really??? That book was written by Jewish believers in JEHOVAH, the Jewish version of Whatever/Whoever "god" is. If you ever want to find some enlightening reading, just google "murder in the bible", and you will find out just what this jewish god thinks of everyone. It is "HIGH" time that we get honest with ourselves about god/religion, etc. If/When we do, we can honestly declare that WE DON"T KNOW! We weren't there when the solar system was put into motion; whoever/whatever did it, sure didn't ask our opinion on the matter. Did we have any say on being born? Do we have any say on our dying? Life is simply a gift. I don't know how I got it, but I did; and thanks goes to the creator whomever he/she/it is. I don't know if it's a force, a person, a spirit, an entity, or simply that it IS.

I think alot of the problems with religion occur, when you look at human suffereing in the world, and try to reconcile this with an all knowing, loving, nurturing "god" of some sort. People die, but we don't have to explain it away like there's a flaw in human design, or that we're sinners, or that it's our fault. Why can't we just accept things for what they are? Life and death are just a part of who we are, what we are. I hope there is life after this life, but I really don't know, and neither does the pope, or any other "preacher", who makes false claims to the contrary. Here is a question that is fun to ask "bible" believers.....Which single word in the bible did Jesus write? NONE, NOT ONE. Did he say those things written in red? Don't know, I wasn't there; and those that claim they were there, were writing these things after he was dead and couldn't object, or agree, with them. JUST BE, and let's look after one another in the process. Much love. And we all should do what we can to stop the expoitation of HUMAN BEINGS for the profit of the few.
 
C

Carthoris

Well-Known Member
Ganjasism said:
I don't want to piss people off with my opinions about religion (which I do not care for) but, it seems that most people (without thinking) automatically approach this topic from the viewpoint of the "bible". Well let's take into consideration, who wrote the books of the bible? What nation were these people from? The "god" of the bible, whose "god" was he? I mean, come on really??? That book was written by Jewish believers in JEHOVAH, the Jewish version of Whatever/Whoever "god" is. If you ever want to find some enlightening reading, just google "murder in the bible", and you will find out just what this jewish god thinks of everyone. It is "HIGH" time that we get honest with ourselves about god/religion, etc. If/When we do, we can honestly declare that WE DON"T KNOW! We weren't there when the solar system was put into motion; whoever/whatever did it, sure didn't ask our opinion on the matter. Did we have any say on being born? Do we have any say on our dying? Life is simply a gift. I don't know how I got it, but I did; and thanks goes to the creator whomever he/she/it is. I don't know if it's a force, a person, a spirit, an entity, or simply that it IS.

I think alot of the problems with religion occur, when you look at human suffereing in the world, and try to reconcile this with an all knowing, loving, nurturing "god" of some sort. People die, but we don't have to explain it away like there's a flaw in human design, or that we're sinners, or that it's our fault. Why can't we just accept things for what they are? Life and death are just a part of who we are, what we are. I hope there is life after this life, but I really don't know, and neither does the pope, or any other "preacher", who makes false claims to the contrary. Here is a question that is fun to ask "bible" believers.....Which single word in the bible did Jesus write? NONE, NOT ONE. Did he say those things written in red? Don't know, I wasn't there; and those that claim they were there, were writing these things after he was dead and couldn't object, or agree, with them. JUST BE, and let's look after one another in the process. Much love. And we all should do what we can to stop the expoitation of HUMAN BEINGS for the profit of the few.
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My opening post was in reference to Christianity/Islam/Judaism. The very idea of all power and free will together do not mesh in my mind, and I was just making sure I wasn't missing anything. I tried to explain it to someone last week and they just didn't get what I was trying to point out. I wasn't questioning any of the religious texts but the very idea of God and how someone who is perfect could create something flawed or alternatively why he would purposely make something flawed and then seem upset it was flawed.
 
mindphuk

mindphuk

Well-Known Member
Windsblow said:
I noticed.
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Excuse me? Where was the condescension? I clearly explained my confusion with your associations about things that are not typically related. Your lack of elaboration and clarification of your thoughts should not be projected into blaming the listener. I have been quite fair and patient with you. If you want to accuse me of something, go for it, I'm quite capable of defending my viewpoints but don't put your thought in the form of a question then stop talking when you get a response you didn't expect.
 
Ganjasism

Ganjasism

Active Member
Carthoris said:
My opening post was in reference to Christianity/Islam/Judaism. The very idea of all power and free will together do not mesh in my mind, and I was just making sure I wasn't missing anything. I tried to explain it to someone last week and they just didn't get what I was trying to point out. I wasn't questioning any of the religious texts but the very idea of God and how someone who is perfect could create something flawed or alternatively why he would purposely make something flawed and then seem upset it was flawed.
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I agree. We had no choice in the matter....that is not freewill. I prefer to believe that whoever put us here did so with the best intentions in mind and made us just the way they wanted to. It was totally in their hands, so how could it ever be our fault? We didn't create "evil". But for the life of me I cannot understand how any human being could possible take complete advantage of another human being and be ok with it. American Free Market Capitalism does it every single day. And the very ones that are disenfranchised because of it are the ones that defend it! Sorry, getting off on another subject. The fact that there are overweight people on one side of the planet, and on the other, those that are starving to death, speaks volumes as to where we are as a species. The human race has got to get to the point where we are not exploiting Mother Nature of Her resources for the profit of the few; but rather for the safegaurding, and nurturing of ALL Living Creatures.
 
Windsblow

Windsblow

Well-Known Member
mindphuk said:
Excuse me? Where was the condescension? I clearly explained my confusion with your associations about things that are not typically related. Your lack of elaboration and clarification of your thoughts should not be projected into blaming the listener. I have been quite fair and patient with you. If you want to accuse me of something, go for it, I'm quite capable of defending my viewpoints but don't put your thought in the form of a question then stop talking when you get a response you didn't expect.
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Like I siad condescening.
I don't need your patience.
What am I your child?
 
mindphuk

mindphuk

Well-Known Member
Windsblow said:
Like I siad condescening.
I don't your patience.
What am I your child?
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What, you want to discuss this with someone that is impatient? I have been patient, patiently trying to piece together an understanding of your POV from the tidbits you toss to me. I've made more than a few requests with specific questions about how you are using certain words. As I said, you made connections that don't exist in the areas of biology I study and you seem reticent to elaborate. If you don't want to discuss it further, that's fine, but then say something. I attempted to see what you thought was condescension but didn't see anything, and you didn't mention specifics. I answered you honestly about still being confused and internet posters should always be warned from reading tone into words, one of the reason emoticons were developed. They say 60-70% or more of our communication with each other is non-verbal. When I say I was not being condescending, you should accept it until proven otherwise. I then didn't post again until you responded to another poster, completely ignoring my response to your condensation accusation. It seems to me that you rather start a fight than actually discuss this further.

If you prefer you can go play crackerboy's games. I won't play. I'm done with you unless you decide to own up and realize your part in not being able to communicate your thoughts well enough. Good bye.
 
Windsblow

Windsblow

Well-Known Member
-correction-
Like I siad condescening.
I don't need your patience.
What am I your child?

mindphuk said:
What, you want to discuss this with someone that is impatient? I have been patient, patiently trying to piece together an understanding of your POV from the tidbits you toss to me. I've made more than a few requests with specific questions about how you are using certain words. As I said, you made connections that don't exist in the areas of biology I study and you seem reticent to elaborate. If you don't want to discuss it further, that's fine, but then say something. I attempted to see what you thought was condescension but didn't see anything, and you didn't mention specifics. I answered you honestly about still being confused and internet posters should always be warned from reading tone into words, one of the reason emoticons were developed. They say 60-70% or more of our communication with each other is non-verbal. When I say I was not being condescending, you should accept it until proven otherwise. I then didn't post again until you responded to another poster, completely ignoring my response to your condensation accusation. It seems to me that you rather start a fight than actually discuss this further.

If you prefer you can go play crackerboy's games. I won't play. I'm done with you unless you decide to own up and realize your part in not being able to communicate your thoughts well enough. Good bye.
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You are one strange dude. Do you interact with people very often? Who the hell talks to people on a forum like this. You take yourself way too seriouse. Uh..... and if you didn't notice I was done with this conversation long ago.
Your a bit too late on that move.
 
Slojo69

Slojo69

Well-Known Member
wow how did i not see this thread lol. There is SOO much here that I wanted to respond to, but by the time I finished it would have been a 10 book series lol. Anyways, from a biblical stand point, free will was given to humans so that they could choose to follow god when they had the option of not following him. That is how he made adam and eve. Now what good is free will if they didn't have an option to mess up? There's where the tree of life came in. Now, Cathoris mentioned that god knew they would sin against him. Not true, he knew that there was the POSSIBILTY of it and what would happen IF they did. I knows what the outcome will be of every situation out there because in the end, He holds our fates in his hand. This is of course you believe in the bible and god. This is the readers Digest of what happened and why we were created with free will. Adam and Eve sinned and therefore spread it to us. Time went on and we needed an example to follow, a way out basically because humans were heading in the same direction as they were before the flood. So instead of wiping out the earth again, he sent his son, who was willing to sacrifice himself for us. Now, it says he is a god exacting exclusive devotion, therefore, we are to use this free will to follow in Jesus footsteps as best we can. Now, After all this is said and done, all this war, pestilence, poverty etc etc, he says we will be rewarded with everlasting life and the earth will be restored to what it was originally intended for, a paradise. So that's basically the pay off, free will = Choose to do whats right in this world of wickedness and temptation, get rewarded with everlasting life in a paradise.

Now I've also seen evolution thrown into this. Evolution had been proven yes, but we have evolved from already living and existing things. If evolution is the way things happened rather than creation? How did it start? there still is NO way to prove either side of this debate, none! I don't care how you think you can carbon date something or microscopically analyze something. If the earth is as old as scientists say, then how the hell can we know where we came from by a buncha bones in the earth that have been there for billions and billions of years? Now on the flip side, the bible says god created man from dust ... Iono how the hell he did that and niether does anyone else. The bottum line to all of this is evolution and genetics mean nothing when it comes to the topic of free will. We can choose to do WHATEVER we want within the laws of physics. Even beyond some of those laws lol. We can shoot someone in the face, we can drive home drunk, we can say "Fuck god" etc etc.

Now personally i was brought up studying the bible very thoroughly and i mean VERY thoroughly. But now that I'm a grown ass man and I can see the world for myself. I just don't give a crap anymore. Religion is the most retarded thing there is out there. In my studies I can gaurantee that the bible is not to be interpreted the way these guys make it out to be. So use that free will man, study shit for yerself and make yer own mind as to why we are here and what we are to do with this life we have.
 
H

HuffPuppy

Member
C'mon fellas, let's not let this turn into a disrespectful flame war like every other freaking thread on RIU. I've never seen so many aggressive smokers...

One thing to keep in mind... there is very little more personal than a man's faith and religion. We're not talking politics here, we're talking basic tenets of a man's belief system. So let's keep that in mind when we are "discussing". Peace.
 
Windsblow

Windsblow

Well-Known Member
HuffPuppy said:
C'mon fellas, let's not let this turn into a disrespectful flame war like every other freaking thread on RIU. I've never seen so many aggressive smokers...

One thing to keep in mind... there is very little more personal than a man's faith and religion. We're not talking politics here, we're talking basic tenets of a man's belief system. So let's keep that in mind when we are "discussing". Peace.
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I second that.
 
C

Carthoris

Well-Known Member
Slojo69 said:
wow how did i not see this thread lol. There is SOO much here that I wanted to respond to, but by the time I finished it would have been a 10 book series lol. Anyways, from a biblical stand point, free will was given to humans so that they could choose to follow god when they had the option of not following him. That is how he made adam and eve. Now what good is free will if they didn't have an option to mess up? There's where the tree of life came in. Now, Cathoris mentioned that god knew they would sin against him. Not true, he knew that there was the POSSIBILTY of it and what would happen IF they did. I knows what the outcome will be of every situation out there because in the end, He holds our fates in his hand. This is of course you believe in the bible and god. This is the readers Digest of what happened and why we were created with free will. Adam and Eve sinned and therefore spread it to us. Time went on and we needed an example to follow, a way out basically because humans were heading in the same direction as they were before the flood. So instead of wiping out the earth again, he sent his son, who was willing to sacrifice himself for us. Now, it says he is a god exacting exclusive devotion, therefore, we are to use this free will to follow in Jesus footsteps as best we can. Now, After all this is said and done, all this war, pestilence, poverty etc etc, he says we will be rewarded with everlasting life and the earth will be restored to what it was originally intended for, a paradise. So that's basically the pay off, free will = Choose to do whats right in this world of wickedness and temptation, get rewarded with everlasting life in a paradise.

Now I've also seen evolution thrown into this. Evolution had been proven yes, but we have evolved from already living and existing things. If evolution is the way things happened rather than creation? How did it start? there still is NO way to prove either side of this debate, none! I don't care how you think you can carbon date something or microscopically analyze something. If the earth is as old as scientists say, then how the hell can we know where we came from by a buncha bones in the earth that have been there for billions and billions of years? Now on the flip side, the bible says god created man from dust ... Iono how the hell he did that and niether does anyone else. The bottum line to all of this is evolution and genetics mean nothing when it comes to the topic of free will. We can choose to do WHATEVER we want within the laws of physics. Even beyond some of those laws lol. We can shoot someone in the face, we can drive home drunk, we can say "Fuck god" etc etc.

Now personally i was brought up studying the bible very thoroughly and i mean VERY thoroughly. But now that I'm a grown ass man and I can see the world for myself. I just don't give a crap anymore. Religion is the most retarded thing there is out there. In my studies I can gaurantee that the bible is not to be interpreted the way these guys make it out to be. So use that free will man, study shit for yerself and make yer own mind as to why we are here and what we are to do with this life we have.
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You said that God didn't know what we would do when he made us. If he didn't, then he isn't all knowing and thus isn't omniscient. That was the whole point in my post. I am not saying that is how it is for a fact, I was just trying to get an idea of what people believe in regards to this. Free will and an omniscient creator cannot really exist in a rational/logical universe. I really wanted to know if anyone had any insight into it. Evolution has little to nothing to do with the opening post.
 
Windsblow

Windsblow

Well-Known Member
Carthoris said:
You said that God didn't know what we would do when he made us. If he didn't, then he isn't all knowing and thus isn't omniscient. That was the whole point in my post. I am not saying that is how it is for a fact, I was just trying to get an idea of what people believe in regards to this. Free will and an omniscient creator cannot really exist in a rational/logical universe. I really wanted to know if anyone had any insight into it. Evolution has little to nothing to do with the opening post.
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Well...... I think in order for us to exist here and now everything ( time, space, matter ) must exist exactly as it is. Any change to this and we cease to exist as we are now, so God cannot change or mettle with any of the variables otherwise he destroys his creation.

God knows everything because everything is happening now. Past, Present and Future are running parallel and God can see everything at once. For example, since time is really just a human concept, if I died and went to the place we go to, I'll call it heaven. I will not wait for the next fifty years waiting for my wife to come meet after she dies, she will already be there. In reality she has already died and God can see her both up there and down here because time is running parallel. This is my theory.
 
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