giving defoliation during flower a try

Alpha Grower

Alpha Grower

Member
I can't post pictures of my plants at the moment, right now I'm hanging some 600HPS here and there.

I'm trying to do my thang cheap.

More or less this is what i have now:

Substrate: Peat Moss with macros and micros (70 liters bags), with dolomite and PH 5,5 - 6,5, electrical conductivity 0,8 - 1,2 (sorry I,m not used to anglo-saxon metrics but I,m learning). 9,5 dolars

Amendments: composted horse manure 50 Liters (13 gallon) bags 6 dolars. I can get this for free but I have no place to compost.

Earth Worm poo 50 Liters. 13 dolars, this is expensive. I dont think that buying this is worth the money, it was great to make my own for free.

Nutrients: 1 Liter (1 quart) of bottled fert with 8 - 4 - 6 NPK 5 dolars. for indoor.

250 grams of quelated micronutrients salts 3 dolars (6 micros).

25 kilos of slow release fert NPK 21 - 7 - 14 with micros for outdoors. 30 dolars.

Dolomite 500 grams containers, 5 dolars I find this expensive but it's what I got around here.

I wish I could post some pics of my misses. I'll do it when I can. :)
 
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a mongo frog

a mongo frog

Well-Known Member
Alpha Grower said:
I can't post pictures of my plants at the moment, right now I'm hanging some 600HPS here and there.

I'm trying to do my thang cheap.

More or less this is what i have now:

Substrate: Peat Moss with macros and micros (70 liters bags), with dolomite and PH 5,5 - 6,5, electrical conductivity 0,8 - 1,2 (sorry I,m not used to anglo-saxon metrics but I,m learning). 9,5 dolars

Amendments: composted horse manure 50 Liters (13 gallon) bags 6 dolars. I can get this for free but I have no place to compost.

Earth Worm poo 50 Liters. 13 dolars, this is expensive. I dont think that buying this is worth the money, it was great to make my own for free.

Nutrients: 1 Liter (1 quart) of bottled fert with 8 - 4 - 6 NPK 5 dolars. for indoor.

250 grams of quelated micronutrients salts 3 dolars (6 micros).

25 kilos of slow release fert NPK 21 - 7 - 14 with micros for outdoors. 30 dolars.

Dolomite 500 grams containers, 5 dolars I find this expensive but it's what I got around here.

I wish I could post some pics of my misses. I'll do it when I can. :)
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Can we come over and hang out and watch you work? Sounds like kick ass garden going on!!!!
 
HeartIandhank

HeartIandhank

Well-Known Member
lickalotapus said:
Good thread . I didnt read the whole things since its huge .but I 100% believe defoliation increases yield if used correctly . I grow vertically with 2x 600s .defoliate every week all through flower . Until the end of flower where theres hardly any leaves left .just a cylinder cage around the bare bulbs absolutely covered in buds . This amount of buds wouldnt be possible without taking away most leaves
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:lol:
 
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HeartIandhank

HeartIandhank

Well-Known Member
Uncle Ben said:
There is NEVER, and never has been, one post in all of the dozens of RIU defoliation threads (primarily posted by noobs) touting "the benefits of butchering a plant" that discusses the botanical implications and the direct cause-effect relationship.

Just a lot of hooey.......buds need light to fatten up, defoliation allows more air and light into the canopy, the practice fattens up the lower buds, etc.

I HAVE explained and countered with botanical fact why these herd mentality postulations are incorrect. It's a feel-good thing for ya'll.
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Nah, UB.. it is just too much of an advanced technique for you to understand.. :lol: You gotta practice and refine your skills of MJ growing before you find that sweet spot of butchering your plants for more of those fat buds!
 
Uncle Ben

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
AlphaPhase said:
You're totally right, and that's why I explained the science of the only reason to take the lower leaves in a certain style grow. If they are left on, the plant will kill them off fast and there will be a mess of dead leaves in the plant canopy and all over the floor. Which is really bad.
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Tell that to a guy who is knocking it out of the ball park. Most of these greenhouse grown trees' lower branches are receiving NO light. The lower branches are healthy, nice and green...unreal yields. https://www.rollitup.org/t/fuck-working.891342/page-4
 
Alpha Grower

Alpha Grower

Member
Uncle Ben said:
Tell that to a guy who is knocking it out of the ball park. Most of these greenhouse grown trees' lower branches are receiving NO light. The lower branches are healthy, nice and green...unreal yields. https://www.rollitup.org/t/fuck-working.891342/page-4
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There is another "advanced technique" they call "flushing".

As all you know "flushing" consist on denying fertilizers to plants and watering plants until the excess of water drain like streams from the bottom of pots.

After doing this several times the leaves start to getting more and more yellow until they die and fall, the plant's leaves yellow from bot to top.

They say that this "improves taste and flavor by getting rid off the excess of fertilizers".

This is maybe the dumbest of the Cannabis growing myths.

Cannabis plant is a annual what means their life span lasts for 1 year in nature.

Cannabis plant after profuse and healthy flowering start to set seeds on every pollinated ovule.

If most of the plant's leaves are yellowing until they fall the plant has a heavy stress on the most important stage of its life, don't need to be a scientist to realize that a yellow plant will have a very poor seed setting.

A yellow plant will set less seeds, and a lot of this seeds can be weak and feeble or not completely mature.

What do ya think of this Tio Ben.


800px-Hemp_bunch-dried_out_-seeds_close_up_PNr°0063.jpg marijuana-seeds.jpg
 
AlphaPhase

AlphaPhase

Well-Known Member
Uncle Ben said:
Tell that to a guy who is knocking it out of the ball park. Most of these greenhouse grown trees' lower branches are receiving NO light. The lower branches are healthy, nice and green...unreal yields. https://www.rollitup.org/t/fuck-working.891342/page-4
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Indoor, greenhouse is much different. Green house allows the plant to get something crazy like 3-4k watts per sqf. With a much better spectrum for growth that the plant can utilize much easier.
Uncle Ben said:
Tell that to a guy who is knocking it out of the ball park. Most of these greenhouse grown trees' lower branches are receiving NO light. The lower branches are healthy, nice and green...unreal yields. https://www.rollitup.org/t/fuck-working.891342/page-4
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Apples to carrots, really. But, to explain some things pertaining to outdoor growing and why it's easier to keep a plant healthy.. Here it goes. Summer sun and even fall sun can have up to 2400umoles. The suns spectrum is balanced which helps the plant photosynthsize at a whole new level, compared to indoor. Indoor, with say a warehouse of 200 DE 1000w fixtures, 1000umoles would be the high side of lighting. With indoor hps bulbs having around 2000kelvin, the plant processes everything differently and much slower. The sun has a 5500k and plants use these benefits as a buffer from deficiencies and also bugs.

On the flip side, if the plant is so massive (say 10x10x12) the very most inside of the plant will have the shading problem and the middle most buds will be do do with dead leaves.
 
AlphaPhase

AlphaPhase

Well-Known Member
homebrewer said:
Alpha - I think you'll change your tune when you've built a proper growing area with reflective walls.
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The thing is, the trays that I would benefit from reflective walls, I don't touch those grows at all, because they aren't that big of plants, just 2' tall. The section that I benefit from lolipoping I'm not sure it would matter because the light foot print, 4x4 for each light, greatly diminishes at the perimeter. So with the 4' plants and the light being 2' above those plants, by the time the light reaches the wall to reflect, it's already diffused and still has 6' downwards to travel after it gets reflected. The reflection would totally help the top of the canopy, but with the canopy completely full wall to wall, it creates the shading where the light can't really pass. The only way to get light down through would be to hang vertical bulbs in the centers, but that would burn the plants. However, the plants directly in the middle that get a more intense light, I do not have to lollipop nearly as much. The outside perimeter is the main issue really. But I will be putting up some reflective walls next grow, so I'll be able to see what happens, I'll leave them untouched and report my findings. But, the canopy is just too thick I'm thinking, like a jungle floor, even though there's light above the tops of the trees, by the time is reaches the ground floor, it's only usable by low light plants. Hopefully, maybe there's a chance, the mylar walls will fix the issue, but I'm skeptical with the bigger plants I grow, if it does help that much I'll be happy I won't have to do as much training.
 
AlphaPhase

AlphaPhase

Well-Known Member
Also, the best thing I've noticed, when certain situations call for lolipoping, the yield is pretty much the same. No increase of yield, but no decrease in yield. By taking off the lower branches that won't amount to much and be airy, it's made up for somewhere up top, maybe the upper most buds are just a bit more dense to make a lollipopped plant yield the same as a non lollipopped plant. Again, no yield increase, but the best of the buds at the tops and middle are much easier to trim than larf. So say 1000g from a lollipopped harvest and all the buds are nice and dense, easy to trim, or 1000g from a non lollipopped plant with larfy/hairy seeded lowers. That's a huge factor as well, by trimming time.
 
AlphaPhase

AlphaPhase

Well-Known Member
Uncle Ben said:
That's a feeling, not a fact as are all of your conclusions based on conjecture without any scientific studies to back it up.
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It's what happens. As there isn't any studies strictly pertaining to mj, it's easy to say what you're saying, but when there are studies pertaining solely to mj indoor gardening I'll assure you it will be fact. I've already posted the science of what truly is going on in Shaded environments, the deficiencies that occur, the leaves not operating properly etc, and from that info you can arrive at the next step of how to take care of those problems. A science book can tell you what happens when you cut a finger on a knife, but then saying putting a bandaid on that finger to stop the bleeding is wrong because it's not mentioned in the science book.. Well come on now.
 
AlphaPhase

AlphaPhase

Well-Known Member
I'd love to see the science you have pertaining to Shaded leaves being beneficial, if you can find any sound resources, then we can move forward, but as of now I think I've proved the reasoning for lolipoping, using science. Can't pick and choose what science benefits your case, though.

I know it's hard to unthink things you've learned and change things you've practiced and preached for so long, but there comes a time when you'll be presented the science (which I've done, and you're all about science, so I'm not seeing how your statement makes any sense) and information that will debunk certain aspects of the information you have given out. It's up to you to accept it or not, it's right there to see and it's cut and dry, but providing disinformation is to no one's benefit and saying "that I think things are a certain way doesn't make them fact" is really counter-productive imo, especially when I've listed about 10 different science sources (maybe you didn't read them?) proving the things I've said and disproving some of the things you've presented... If there was something to prove my sources wrong, then I'm sure you'd have posted them. All things aside, you do know a lot about functions of plants, but then there is the other 1/2 that you're missing. I didn't mean to burst your bubble.

If you, hb, sativied or chuck can prove me wrong with science sources, then I'm all ears, until then, well, I'm right yall are wrong. It is what it is, but I like to learn and am willing to accept science and change my opinion when presented with the proper info. That's what makes a person tick, learning! :D
 
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Alpha Grower

Alpha Grower

Member
AlphaPhase said:
I'd love to see the science you have pertaining to Shaded leaves being beneficial, if you can find any sound resources, then we can move forward, but as of now I think I've proved the reasoning for lolipoping, using science. Can't pick and choose what science benefits your case, though.
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I don't claim to know anything, I'm a learner, I give my opinions and wait for some debate. Your points almost try to be scientific.

Cannabis plant is a plant that needs high intensity light either indoors or outdoors, I think this is a point that all we can agree. So shady places indoors are detrimental one way or another, this is why everybody install Mylar on the walls. With HPS lights (several of them) is obvious that Mylar improves that desirable light penetration. It is incredible how much light you can waste with a bad indoor set-up.

The problem i see in Cannabis community is the same in USA than in Spain. I see it in all forums.

I think the Dutch companies started this mess. There is a huge industry around Cannabis focused exclusively to noobs and lazy Thugs.

Both noobs and lazy thugs share some similarities ¿coincidence? they totally lack of knowledge and want "fast" and "easy" buds.

At the same time Cannabis is illegal in most parts of the world (in Spain is completely illegal). This repel true professional horticulturist, botanists and true businesses owners and business men able to deal with this in an appropriate manner so that they rather work with other crops, like tomato, tobacco, coffee. You can't compare the amount of serious dissertations regarding this crops than to Cannabis crops.

This lack of regulation and lack of knowledge has made some guys very very rich, Dutch and other snake oil sellers have a true structure working out there guys.

They have several free magazines, there are also some books supporting the structure, there are "grow shops" where the owners get a "know-how" training and many salespersons get in to sell products, this products are always part of the "network" so this sales persons at the same time got their "know-how" training. And also there are the cannabis forums full of trolls (sometimes using pictures of fake grow-ops) claiming bullshit about different snake oils, "advanced techniques", and products.


They have products that claim to do almost everything. They say that to have a spectacular bud production you have to rely on their systems, CO2, Carbon Filters (only 300 euros each if you grow serious and have to be replaced every 8 months), silencers, electronic meters, special ferts and additives with no science behind only marketing (30% more yield, 30% more roots, 30% less work) and the list never ends.

This Dutch "canna-business men "are a bunch of lazy mofos hungry for money taking advantage on a given situation, lack of laws, lack of knowledge leads to lack of seriousness, at the end of the day even sincere experiments and theories seem to be bullshit for the experienced horticulturist.

I wish we cannabis horticulturists had are our disposal the same tools that professional tomato, tobacco and coffee growers have like reliable theories, techniques and products.

Get ya feet out of the "Grow Shop" and ya nose inside horticulture books people.

We Cannabis growers are targeted by rogue companies as some retards or something, I think it's time as a community to change this shit by learning actual ways of growing cannabis let's not allow this scammers to waste our time, energy and money.
 
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homebrewer

homebrewer

Well-Known Member
AlphaPhase said:
I'd love to see the science you have pertaining to Shaded leaves being beneficial, if you can find any sound resources, then we can move forward, but as of now I think I've proved the reasoning for lolipoping, using science. Can't pick and choose what science benefits your case, though.

I know it's hard to unthink things you've learned and change things you've practiced and preached for so long, but there comes a time when you'll be presented the science (which I've done, and you're all about science, so I'm not seeing how your statement makes any sense) and information that will debunk certain aspects of the information you have given out. It's up to you to accept it or not, it's right there to see and it's cut and dry, but providing disinformation is to no one's benefit and saying "that I think things are a certain way doesn't make them fact" is really counter-productive imo, especially when I've listed about 10 different science sources (maybe you didn't read them?) proving the things I've said and disproving some of the things you've presented... If there was something to prove my sources wrong, then I'm sure you'd have posted them. All things aside, you do know a lot about functions of plants, but then there is the other 1/2 that you're missing. I didn't mean to burst your bubble.

If you, hb, sativied or chuck can prove me wrong with science sources, then I'm all ears, until then, well, I'm right yall are wrong. It is what it is, but I like to learn and am willing to accept science and change my opinion when presented with the proper info. That's what makes a person tick, learning! :D
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This thread is about defoliation. A technique where folks remove leaves in effort to increase light to the bud sites with the thinking that buds grow buds. Anyone with half a brain knows that's nonsense. You're talking about lower branch pruning and the removal of some lower leaves. Regardless of your reason to do this to your plants in your grow room (lack of light due to poor grow room setup, IPM, over crowding, etc.), that is not what this thread is about.

You might be better off looking for an argument in a 'Pruning for bag appeal in an overcrowded grow room' thread.
 
AlphaPhase

AlphaPhase

Well-Known Member
Alpha Grower said:
I don't claim to know anything, I'm a learner, I give my opinions and wait for some debate. Your points almost try to be scientific.

Cannabis plant is a plant that needs high intensity light either indoors or outdoors, I think this is a point that all we can agree. So shady places indoors are detrimental one way or another, this is why everybody install Mylar on the walls. With HPS lights (several of them) is obvious that Mylar improves that desirable light penetration. It is incredible how much light you can waste with a bad indoor set-up.

The problem i see in Cannabis community is the same in USA than in Spain. I see it in all forums.

I think the Dutch companies started this mess. There is a huge industry around Cannabis focused exclusively to noobs and lazy Thugs.

Both noobs and lazy thugs share some similarities ¿coincidence? they totally lack of knowledge and want "fast" and "easy" buds.

At the same time Cannabis is illegal in most parts of the world (in Spain is completely illegal). This repel true professional horticulturist, botanists and true businesses owners and business men able to deal with this in an appropriate manner so that they rather work with other crops, like tomato, tobacco, coffee. You can't compare the amount of serious dissertations regarding this crops than to Cannabis crops.

This lack of regulation and lack of knowledge has made some guys very very rich, Dutch and other snake oil sellers have a true structure working out there guys.

They have several free magazines, there are also some books supporting the structure, there are "grow shops" where the owners get a "know-how" training and many salespersons get in to sell products, this products are always part of the "network" so this sales persons at the same time got their "know-how" training. And also there are the cannabis forums full of trolls (sometimes using pictures of fake grow-ops) claiming bullshit about different snake oils, "advanced techniques", and products.


They have products that claim to do almost everything. They say that to have a spectacular bud production you have to rely on their systems, CO2, Carbon Filters (only 300 euros each if you grow serious and have to be replaced every 8 months), silencers, electronic meters, special ferts and additives with no science behind only marketing (30% more yield, 30% more roots, 30% less work) and the list never ends.

This Dutch "canna-business men "are a bunch of lazy mofos hungry for money taking advantage on a given situation, lack of laws, lack of knowledge leads to lack of seriousness, at the end of the day even sincere experiments and theories seem to be bullshit for the experienced horticulturist.

I wish we cannabis horticulturists had are our disposal the same tools that professional tomato, tobacco and coffee growers have like reliable theories, techniques and products.

Get ya feet out of the "Grow Shop" and ya nose inside horticulture books people.

We Cannabis growers are targeted by rogue companies as some retards or something, I think it's time as a community to change this shit by learning actual ways of growing cannabis let's not allow this scammers to waste our time, energy and money.
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Yes, all of my points are backed by scientific studies from agricultural journals. 100% - no hydro shop mumbo jumbo. Just strictly science from a horticulture prospective.

I agree, hydro shops tout the snake oil and numerous other products that aren't needed, but when people figure out how to grow, and get a solid foundation of knowledge, they'll realize they don't need most of the garbage trying to be sold.

It's simple. You need light. Complete base nutrients (really doesn't matter what kind, dyna, maxi, gh, technaflora). A Gardener can figure out the best amounts to use for their garden and pay little for the nutrients. My nutrients are dry nutes. 1 bag for veg and 1 bag for flower, doesn't get any more easier than that. Though you mentioned carbon filters. Anyone with a brain needs 1 if they are not in a legal mj state. Or if you don't want your neighbors a block away to smell it. The grow should be preferable climate controlled. 80f degrees lights on, 70f lights off, give or take a few degrees.
Also, you don't need co2 indoors, but it certainly helps! That is one thing that greatly benefits growing indoors. You don't need it, but if you have it your plants will thank you by having a bigger harvest, hands down, it's proven.

Easy as that.

And most studies pertaining to agriculture of veggies and tobacco etc, can be utilized by mj farmers. There are some differences between mj and other plants, but the basics still apply.

100% agree with you that the mj industry does scam people into buying crap they don't need, but if those people buying the stuff now really like growing the plant, they will learn in time what they need or don't need.
 
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