For The "Liberals" In The Forum ...

BendBrewer

Well-Known Member
So are you saying because Bush spent so much it's ok for Obama to spend even more? Bush accumulated 4 trillion in debt in 8 years. I think that's way to much. Yea I think that bullshit stimulus check they sent out was a bad idea but Bush is gone so is Clinton. Obama has accumulated $5 trillion in debt in 3 years and he is still in office today. So do we just keep spending money we don't have? What's wrong with the government not spending more than it takes in?
Those Stimulus Checks are still going out every year in the form of Bush's Tax Cuts that Obama is trying like hell to end but the Republicans in Congress won't even consider it. You understand that right?

Yes we have to cut spending and raise some taxes. That is exactly what Obama is proposing.

Why you still bitch about it?
 

BendBrewer

Well-Known Member
And that's our responsibility how? Isn't that what the U.N. and NATO are for? I don't know what you call it when you drop bombs on people but I call it war. Keep making excuses for the guy it's not going to help his reelection.
Yes. NATO. Which we are part of. And NATO is taking care of it. You should read a paper.
 

BudMcLovin

Active Member
Those Stimulus Checks are still going out every year in the form of Bush's Tax Cuts that Obama is trying like hell to end but the Republicans in Congress won't even consider it. You understand that right?

Yes we have to cut spending and raise some taxes. That is exactly what Obama is proposing.

Why you still bitch about it?
Both sides are using smoke and mirrors to try and convince the American people that cutting 3 trillion in 10 years is going to do anything about our debt. Hell Obama racked up that much in deficit spending in 2 years.

The money government confiscates belongs to the person until government takes it. So how is letting a person keep more of their own property a "check" from the government. Please explain to me how that works. How much of one person's property do you think the government should be allowed to take to waste on bullshit programs? Why won't any of you lefties answer that? Why do the American people need to pay for people's heath insurance when your health is your own responsibility. How much spending is enough? The education system is shit and more money never seems to fix it. Tell me one program that has cost what government said it was going to or works as well as they promised. Other than taking your money.
 

londonfog

Well-Known Member
Whats funny is that the ones who will not even have to pay for their healthcare due to waiver or low income are the ones making the most noise...Talking about fight against yourself..
 

BendBrewer

Well-Known Member
Both sides are using smoke and mirrors to try and convince the American people that cutting 3 trillion in 10 years is going to do anything about our debt. Hell Obama racked up that much in deficit spending in 2 years.

The money government confiscates belongs to the person until government takes it. So how is letting a person keep more of their own property a "check" from the government. Please explain to me how that works. How much of one person's property do you think the government should be allowed to take to waste on bullshit programs? Why won't any of you lefties answer that? Why do the American people need to pay for people's heath insurance when your health is your own responsibility. How much spending is enough? The education system is shit and more money never seems to fix it. Tell me one program that has cost what government said it was going to or works as well as they promised. Other than taking your money.
Taxes are at an all time low and I am getting tired of hearing crybabies complain about it all the time. Your grandparent would be embarrassed at how little you contribute and how much you bitch about it. Read my lips.

TAXES ARE AT HISTORIC LOWS

Quit your crying.
 

BudMcLovin

Active Member
Whats funny is that the ones who will not even have to pay for their healthcare due to waiver or low income are the ones making the most noise...Talking about fight against yourself..
It's called fighting government control. You may be happy with the government having you by the short and curlies but I don't. If the government can force you to but healthcare it's just a matter of time before they tell you what to eat, when to work out, what color of hat to buy. Where does it stop? Don't think tit could happen think again. Once government is given all control what's going to stop them from doing what ever they want?

So lets here a logical argument for your big government control. I bet I don't get one. Well Mame your doing pretty good but these other guys can save the one liners for the ladies.
 

mame

Well-Known Member
I’m ok with Clinton era tax rates as long as we go back to Clinton level spending.
Adjusted for inflation and rising costs, sure. What a lot of people dont realize is that when you look at the numbers most of the "increased size of government" as GDP comes from increases social safety net spending (food stamps, unemployment insurance, etc)... There really is no evidence to suggest that there was a massive expansion of the Federal government under Obama when you actually take a look at what the increased spending is (because safety net spending always goes up during every recession, it's not something specific to anything Obama did).

Government spending will never create full employement because government doesn’t create or manufacture anything. It confiscates wealth from the private sector to pay for it’s programs.
You're referring to a "crowding out" scenario, which isn't and wont happen because we're in a demand-less liquidity trap type recession; In this scenario government spending is actually the only way out.

Imagine government creates 1000 temporary infrastructure jobs... After the job is done in that region the construction workers are out of a job again and that's it, right? Wrong. During the time those workers are getting paychecks, they're generating demand for goods. With more demand, there's reason to hire workers; let's say there's enough demand to support 200 more jobs. Now, you'd think that once the demand from the construction workers dwindles away as stimulus fades that the 200 new jobs would just go away too - and a few of them might - but business owners have a known tendency to retain employees that they've hired and combined with the 200 jobs worth of demand left behind by the stimulus, that's all thats needed to "prime the pump". Those 200 jobs will lead to 30 more, and then next month 230 jobs will lead to 20-30 more, and on and on and on... This is what the government should be doing on a grand scale RIGHT NOW.

Liberals always want to raise taxes on the rich but the poor pay nothing that should change. Why not make everyone pay a little in taxes You guys talk about fairness but where is it in liberal policies? They also say we should be progressive in our ideas but never say where that progression should go. Progression toward more government control is what it sound like to me. Now Obama’s talking about shared sacrifice and tells the American people to eat our peas. Why doesn’t the government take it’s own advise.
Progressive taxation is needed, for many reason which I've posted about before and dont really care to repost... But I will say that the reason you dont want to tax the poor people is because they spend 99% of their money; Because they spend almost everything they make, taxing them reduces demand - essentially crowding it out. The same thing doesn't happen to the rich, who only ever spend a portion of their income while they save/invest the rest. China actually has followed the U.S. and European example recently and took thousands of their poorest workers off of the income tax, boosting their economy. If you want more people to pay taxes, reduce inequality.

Ok so you say the government will still run a deficit at full employment. They would still be spending more than they take in. Is that supposed to continue forever? Why not have a balanced budget? Why would counties continue to lend us money if we never really pay it back? Why continue
No, I would never advocate deficits over the long term. There is a time and place for everything, they say, and right now is the time to repair the economy even as we begin to take steps to address our long term budget deficits. Right now the government can borrow at historically low rates (sub 3% on 10-yr bonds) and we have over a million construction workers out of work, not paying any taxes - meanwhile infrastructure is crumbling... Again, over the long term we have the ability to solve our fiscal issues but over the short term the best way to address those fiscal issues is to reach full employment.

The rising cost of entitlements is caused by a lot more than just rising medical cost. You say economists predict Obamacare will reduce cost but there are also economist who say it will increase cost. The reason it reduce cost on paper is the taxes kick in a couple of years before the program actually starts. But that doesn’t even matter. The problem I have with Obamacare is it’s not the job of the government to take on the personal responsibility of the citizens. Where in the constitution does it say that? I guess we’ll find out when the Supreme Court decides the case.
Actually, Obamacare is slated to save much more in the second decade and on than it will in the first decade - which you cite as only saving because of increased revenue, blah blah which is true. But it's important to realize Obamacare will bend the curve. My proof? Look at Canada, France, the UK, Germany, Japan, etc... ALL of these countries have universal systems and ALL pay less than half as much as we do.
Spending on infrastructure was supposed to be part of the stimulus, shovel ready jobs and all that jazz. Unemployment went up and it’s staying up.
Yeah, it's sad actually.. the vast majority (I wanna say over 90%) if the stimulus went to government aid and tax cuts - very little went towards infrastructure. I'm advocating for a 100% infrastructure bill.

Government run health insurance isn’t going to promote competition it will destroy it. As they place more and more requirements on insurance companies the cost of private insurance will continue to rise causing more and more people to turn to the government. Remember when Obama said if you like your health insurance you can keep it? Well that’s only if your able to afford it.
Yeah, I really dont wanna get too far into an Obamacare debate... lol.

Raise revenues is all the left ever says. What is wrong with cutting spending? Why should the American people be required to pay for a study on why pigs smell? Or why should we pay to teach Chinese prostitutes to drink more responsibly? Government waste large amounts of money on bullshit, why do we need to keep paying for http://blog.heritage.org/2009/10/08/50-examples-of-government-waste/
Well, Austerity in the face of high unemployment just worsens the slump but over the long term sure, cut spending. Combine it with revenue increases (closing loopholes, etc) and you can even lower rates while raising revenue via the Bowles-Simpson plan.
 

BendBrewer

Well-Known Member
Than vote for people in your state that will deal with HC on a State Level. I live in Oregon and will never have Obamacare over my head. My state is going to be one of the first to opt out because we have our shit together. Don't like Big Government? Take it up with the leaders of your state.

And you seem paranoid. What's your strain?
 

BudMcLovin

Active Member
Taxes are at an all time low and I am getting tired of hearing crybabies complain about it all the time. Your grandparent would be embarrassed at how little you contribute and how much you bitch about it. Read my lips.

TAXES ARE AT HISTORIC LOWS

Quit your crying.
And spending is a historical highs. The federal government is spending something like 4 billion a day but we have a revenue problem. It's a spending problem. Why do the American people have to pay for a bunch of bullshit? It's not hard to find example of just Google government waste. All you harp on is taxes tell me why we need higher taxes to pay for all the government waste. Make your case or not I don't really care because this thread is dead to me now. I just keep talking in circles and never get any answers from you guys so it's been a complete waste of my time. Well other than Mame.
 

mame

Well-Known Member
Oregon Health Plan yo.

I dont use it but I know a few people that do, nothing but good reviews! Any other Oregonians at RIU ever take advantage of OHP?
 

BendBrewer

Well-Known Member
And spending is a historical highs. The federal government is spending something like 4 billion a day but we have a revenue problem. It's a spending problem. Why do the American people have to pay for a bunch of bullshit? It's not hard to find example of just Google government waste. All you harp on is taxes tell me why we need higher taxes to pay for all the government waste. Make your case or not I don't really care because this thread is dead to me now. I just keep talking in circles and never get any answers from you guys so it's been a complete waste of my time. Well other than Mame.
There is one question. " Why do the American people have to pay for a bunch of bullshit?"

That sounds like something a child would say. I'm 40 and don't have time for that. Which specific programs would you like to see tax payers stop paying for? I think taxes should return to Clinton levels. Bush raised taxes because he told us we had a 5.6 Trillion dollar Surplus.

Where is the Surplus?

Where is the justification for the tax cuts?

Revenue is down. Taxes are too low and I have to share a country with people who still bitch about it. It's getting old. Stop complaining Your grandfather paid 50% in taxes and I bet he didn't bitch like you about it.
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
You focus on one thing I have to say and ignore all others. Why? I’m guessing because you don’t know how to have an adult conversation. Are you mentally retarded or just a fucking idiot? Why don’t you actually say something intelligent for a change instead of playing your liberal games? I guess you can’t. I’m sure this post will go right over your head as well. Oh well that’s what I get for trying to have a debate with a child.
you poor thing.

sorry you are so upset about your self-ownage there.

all the insults really drive home the point of how humiliating your self-defeat was.

logical libertarians, never prone to emotion and outburst like what we see above :lol:
 

Mr Neutron

Well-Known Member
Taxes are at an all time low and I am getting tired of hearing crybabies complain about it all the time. Your grandparent would be embarrassed at how little you contribute and how much you bitch about it. Read my lips.

TAXES ARE AT HISTORIC LOWS

Quit your crying.
Lower than 0?
 

BendBrewer

Well-Known Member
Oh that's right, Oregonians think the country was founded in 1913.
Pretty sure you remember discussing this as well. I simply prefer the non-third world America. You can keep the 1910s. I'll take the roaring 20s and beyond. They don't call us Progressives for nothing.
 

Mr Neutron

Well-Known Member
Pretty sure you remember discussing this as well. I simply prefer the non-third world America. You can keep the 1910s. I'll take the roaring 20s and beyond. They don't call us Progressives for nothing.
Yup, progressing towards a New World Order where there is the small, elite, ruling class and the slaves.
 

mame

Well-Known Member
Yup, progressing towards a New World Order where there is the small, elite, ruling class and the slaves.
I believe the the "gilded age" had a small, elite, ruling class and "slaves" - what would make the world you advocate for any different?
 

BendBrewer

Well-Known Member
But you prefer a World dominated by the British Empire. America sure wasn't a leading country in your hay day of 1910. Since than, that Socialist fucking country became the Greatest Country in the World.

Thank a Progressive that you aren't a 3rd world citizen today.
 
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