Flowering issue: Bronze rust on sugar leaves...

Claflin_BU · Jun 24, 2018

Hey guys,

A persistent problem keeps coming up at the same stage of flowering. This is my second run. 7 weeks in. Avg RH: 35-45% Avg Temp 75-80 degrees. I'm using a single BestA 1200 watt LED lamp at 18' above canopy. 4x4 grow tent. Kept good air intake + exhaust and fan blowing on LEDs. PH remains at a consistent 7 from runoff. Used Ocean forest potting soil in 2 gallon smart pots (transported from smaller pots prior to flowering).

Persistent problems:

Bronze rust appearing on sugar leaves (2/4 plants, just started)
Gradual yellowing of outer edge of leaves (2/4 plants, started week 2 flowering)
Slow growth on some bud sites (personal observation)
Brown spotting on upper leaves (1/4 plants)
Clawing and drying of whole leaves (2/4 plants)

Feeding schedule:

FF Big Bloom 4 tbsp/gallon + Tiger Bloom 2-3 tsp / gallon with water flush (slight runoff) every other feed x1-2 week.

I've spent a good portion of 2 grows trying to figure out solutions to these issues with no avail.

Any ideas would be profoundly appreciated !

SwiSHa85 · Jun 24, 2018

From what I see, seems like normal nute burn. Everything you described sounds like normal overfeeding.

Tim1987 · Jun 24, 2018

Hi Claflin.

I'll be honest they look way overnuted.

What ive gathered, from other growers, is that FFOF is already very rich soil, and doesn't need any added nutrition for several weeks.
Seems like a lot of bottled nutrient your feeding to the gallon as well.
Likely a little overwatered too.
Ph of your runoff is not a good indicator of ph of your soil. You need to test a soil sample.
Whats your watering routine look like?
When did you last give them a big drink of plain water?

Need some information -

Watering schedule?
Ppm of your mixed feed?
Ph of your soil?
Length of time between waterings?
How long does the soil take to get very dry?
How much waste runoff do you get?
How long does your pot take to drain, when watered?
(does your soil hold a lot of water)
Did you add any aeration / drainage? Such as perlite.

I personally think they need a big drink of plain water. Then dry them right out.
Then water only until harvest.

Good luck OP.

Tim.

:peace:

Beachwalker · Jun 24, 2018

Use pH of 6.5 in Fox Farm ocean forest for best results
-good luck :leaf:

coreywebster · Jun 24, 2018

Claflin_BU said:
Hey guys,

A persistent problem keeps coming up at the same stage of flowering. This is my second run. 7 weeks in. Avg RH: 35-45% Avg Temp 75-80 degrees. I'm using a single BestA 1200 watt LED lamp at 18' above canopy. 4x4 grow tent. Kept good air intake + exhaust and fan blowing on LEDs. PH remains at a consistent 7 from runoff. Used Ocean forest potting soil in 2 gallon smart pots (transported from smaller pots prior to flowering).

Persistent problems:

Bronze rust appearing on sugar leaves (2/4 plants, just started)

Gradual yellowing of outer edge of leaves (2/4 plants, started week 2 flowering)

Slow growth on some bud sites (personal observation)

Brown spotting on upper leaves (1/4 plants)

Clawing and drying of whole leaves (2/4 plants)

Feeding schedule:

FF Big Bloom 4 tbsp/gallon + Tiger Bloom 2-3 tsp / gallon with water flush (slight runoff) every other feed x1-2 week.

I've spent a good portion of 2 grows trying to figure out solutions to these issues with no avail.

Any ideas would be profoundly appreciated !

Feed charts usually tell you to put more in than needed. Your putting even more than that.

You say FF big bloom at 4 table spoons (unless that's a typo) it should be 3 tea spoons in flower

Tiger bloom should be 2 tea spoons.

Maybe your using a different feed chart but that's what the online one says.
I hope your table spoons was a typo because that's gona fuck you up brother.

The other thing to note is its recommended to feed ph between 5.6 and 6-8 going in, not 7.

Claflin_BU · Jun 24, 2018

@coreywebster Hey corey, yep that was a typo. My bad. I would say the ph is an issue, except that one plant isn't experiencing any of the symptoms of the other 3 plants with the same feed. What is also mind boggling is the bronze rust that tends to appear at week 6+. I've never seen anything like it. It doesn't match any deficiency that I've read on (including phosphorous). Yet, it tends to mess up the aroma and quality of the final yield.

Claflin_BU · Jun 24, 2018

@Tim1987 Tim, I'd need to get back to you on those details. FYI I've been flushing them every other feed with slight run off.

Claflin_BU · Jun 24, 2018

Tim1987 said:
Hi Claflin.

I'll be honest they look way overnuted.

What ive gathered, from other growers, is that FFOF is already very rich soil, and doesn't need any added nutrition for several weeks.
Seems like a lot of bottled nutrient your feeding to the gallon as well.
Likely a little overwatered too.
Ph of your runoff is not a good indicator of ph of your soil. You need to test a soil sample.
Whats your watering routine look like?
When did you last give them a big drink of plain water?

Need some information -

Watering schedule?
Ppm of your mixed feed?
Ph of your soil?
Length of time between waterings?
How long does the soil take to get very dry?
How much waste runoff do you get?
How long does your pot take to drain, when watered?
(does your soil hold a lot of water)
Did you add any aeration / drainage? Such as perlite.

I personally think they need a big drink of plain water. Then dry them right out.
Then water only until harvest.

Good luck OP.

Tim.

Watering Schedule: x1 / week intermittently between every feed
PPM of mixed feed: N/A (don't have a TDS meter at the moment)
Length of time between waterings: 3-4 days
Time for Soil to get very dry: 5 days
Waste run off: very slightly and mostly clear
Time to drain when watered: 1/2 gallon per plant and probably about 20-25 seconds to see run off (takes a while).
Drainage /aeration: I didnt add anything extra other than the perlite that exists in the OF. Smart pots help a little although i feel the roots are tightly packed (I'm assuming).

Tim1987 · Jun 24, 2018

Claflin_BU said:
@Tim1987 Tim, I'd need to get back to you on those details. FYI I've been flushing them every other feed with slight run off.

It really does look overnuted.....

The yellow V shape on your leaf edges is magnesium deficiency. Its often refered to as "the magnesium V".
When the edges, and tips start to scorch and go brown as well, its potassium deficiency.
A lot of the time red or purple stem, and dark green leaves is phosphorus deficiency.

The problem is, with the feeds you're giving, the soil wouldnt be deficient in any of these. It can only be nutrient antagonism. Or ph lockout.
If your soils ph is above 6. Then magnesium, potassium, phosphorus, calcium etc is extremely available. You state your waste ph is 7. Im betting the soil is not the same. It may well be over ph6 though. In which case it has to be overnuted.

Your soil looks and sounds salty to me because -

You are watering until runoff, and still have issues.
Theres plant droop.
Theres dry leaf curl.
Theres obvious deficiency, while supplementing plenty of those nutrients.
Waste runoff suggests soil is in range for optimal absorption of the deficient nutrition.
Scorched leaf edges.
Multiple symptoms at the same time.
Looks like it needs a great big drink to me.

P.S.
For example Coco Coir is notorious for being too salty, and causing lockouts. Symptoms are a split image to what you are experiencing.
Something is way out of balance OP.
Im going with nutrient toxicity.
Do you have an ec meter?

:peace:

Tim1987 · Jun 24, 2018

Claflin_BU said:
Watering Schedule: x1 / week intermittently between every feed
PPM of mixed feed: N/A (don't have a TDS meter at the moment)
Length of time between waterings: 3-4 days
Time for Soil to get very dry: 5 days
Waste run off: very slightly and mostly clear
Time to drain when watered: 1/2 gallon per plant and probably about 20-25 seconds to see run off (takes a while).
Drainage /aeration: I didnt add anything extra other than the perlite that exists in the OF. Smart pots help a little although i feel the roots are tightly packed (I'm assuming).

If you can test ec of the waste, (salt content) it'll give you a good indication of whats going on. Even if it wont be a totally accurate indication of your soil.
Ec is the measurement to use. Because salt levels is exactly what its measuring.
Would not surprise me at all if the ec is much higher than you realize.
Your soil is soaking it up like a sponge as well.

Does your feeding chart state the ppms? It should.
If it does let the thread know the ppm you're feeding.

All signs are pointing to nutrient burn....

:peace:

SwiSHa85 · Jun 24, 2018

SwiSHa85 said:
From what I see, seems like normal nute burn. Everything you described sounds like normal overfeeding.

Nute burn and PH fluctuation. I'm guessing you feed and water without PHing your final feed/water. Most nutes lower PH, so going from feed to water back and forth isn't making her happy. Use PH up or down and always keep it the same regardless of whats going in.

coreywebster · Jun 25, 2018

Claflin_BU said:
@coreywebster Hey corey, yep that was a typo. My bad. I would say the ph is an issue, except that one plant isn't experiencing any of the symptoms of the other 3 plants with the same feed. What is also mind boggling is the bronze rust that tends to appear at week 6+. I've never seen anything like it. It doesn't match any deficiency that I've read on (including phosphorous). Yet, it tends to mess up the aroma and quality of the final yield.

Hey man, Glad that was a typo, I would imagine if not they wouldn't of made it this far.

Its chronic over feeding.
Your pics shows signs of N tox amongst other things. With a soil you are supposed to read the plant and look for signs it needs additional food rather than follow the chart and add it for the sake of it. Most soils should get you about half way through flower depending on how you pot up of cause then you start introducing nutrients at low doses.

When you water you need to allow more than a little bit of run off. Cloth pots will give run off before they are fully saturated, especially if soil is dry, you can get channels in your soil and down the sides off the pot. You should water each pot with a litre, then go round them all again and a 3rd time( more if needed), slowly watering so you know your medium is totally saturated and thus no salts are building up. You can end up with hydrophobic soil otherwise and lock out from the salts building up.
Once you have a good amount of run off you need to clean that up and not allow your pot to reabsorb it or you risk absorbing a high dose of nutrients.

As far as the bronze rust goes, is it on the sugar leaves? Do they pull off without much effort? Got a pic?

Claflin_BU · Jun 25, 2018

Tim1987 said:
It really does look overnuted.....

The yellow V shape on your leaf edges is magnesium deficiency. Its often refered to as "the magnesium V".
When the edges, and tips start to scorch and go brown as well, its potassium deficiency.
A lot of the time red or purple stem, and dark green leaves is phosphorus deficiency.

The problem is, with the feeds you're giving, the soil wouldnt be deficient in any of these. It can only be nutrient antagonism. Or ph lockout.
If your soils ph is above 6. Then magnesium, potassium, phosphorus, calcium etc is extremely available. You state your waste ph is 7. Im betting the soil is not the same. It may well be over ph6 though. In which case it has to be overnuted.

Your soil looks and sounds salty to me because -

You are watering until runoff, and still have issues.
Theres plant droop.
Theres dry leaf curl.
Theres obvious deficiency, while supplementing plenty of those nutrients.
Waste runoff suggests soil is in range for optimal absorption of the deficient nutrition.
Scorched leaf edges.
Multiple symptoms at the same time.
Looks like it needs a great big drink to me.

P.S.
For example Coco Coir is notorious for being too salty, and causing lockouts. Symptoms are a split image to what you are experiencing.
Something is way out of balance OP.
Im going with nutrient toxicity.
Do you have an ec meter?

In the case of nutrient toxicity and considering the fact that I'm at week 7 of grow, what would you advise is the best course of action?

Would you flush until harvest to reduce stress and maximize yield? And as I've just recently watered and the soil is still damp, would you advise I flush again to reduce salt build up?

Note: you can see the bronze rust on the sugar leaves in the first image I've attached.

Claflin_BU · Jun 25, 2018

coreywebster said:
Hey man, Glad that was a typo, I would imagine if not they wouldn't of made it this far.

Its chronic over feeding.
Your pics shows signs of N tox amongst other things. With a soil you are supposed to read the plant and look for signs it needs additional food rather than follow the chart and add it for the sake of it. Most soils should get you about half way through flower depending on how you pot up of cause then you start introducing nutrients at low doses.

When you water you need to allow more than a little bit of run off. Cloth pots will give run off before they are fully saturated, especially if soil is dry, you can get channels in your soil and down the sides off the pot. You should water each pot with a litre, then go round them all again and a 3rd time( more if needed), slowly watering so you know your medium is totally saturated and thus no salts are building up. You can end up with hydrophobic soil otherwise and lock out from the salts building up.
Once you have a good amount of run off you need to clean that up and not allow your pot to reabsorb it or you risk absorbing a high dose of nutrients.

As far as the bronze rust goes, is it on the sugar leaves? Do they pull off without much effort? Got a pic?

Corey you just introduced a game changer; I had no idea that run off in cloth pots happens before saturation. So how much run off would you advise for optimal conditions?

Claflin_BU · Jun 25, 2018

SwiSHa85 said:
Nute burn and PH fluctuation. I'm guessing you feed and water without PHing your final feed/water. Most nutes lower PH, so going from feed to water back and forth isn't making her happy. Use PH up or down and always keep it the same regardless of whats going in.

Swisha your right on that assumption. I don't go into phing my feed or water. Ive measured the ph in soil and from run off.. Both appear to be at a stable 7. Any ideas on the best way to go about reducing fluctuations in feed vs waterings?

coreywebster · Jun 25, 2018

Claflin_BU said:
Corey you just introduced a game changer; I had no idea that run off in cloth pots happens before saturation. So how much run off would you advise for optimal conditions?

As far as run off goes 10-20% is standard for any type of pot. But with the cloth pots its a case of slowly watering.
Just something I noticed when I switched from plastic pots to cloth. Its easy for water to pass down the sides or wick down the cloth to the bottom and lead you to think your watering enough when your not. bongsmilie

coreywebster · Jun 25, 2018

Reason I asked if you can pull those bronze leaves off at the stem was because I have had the pleasure of bud rot a couple of times and that bronzing comes hand in hand. Not that im saying its the only cause of bronzing leaves, but better to check and know if there is rot earlier than later. You can trace the leaf back to the stem and look for brown, grey or any discolouration, the leaf will pull out where the stem has lost its strength.

Tim1987 · Jun 25, 2018

Claflin_BU said:
In the case of nutrient toxicity and considering the fact that I'm at week 7 of grow, what would you advise is the best course of action?

Would you flush until harvest to reduce stress and maximize yield? And as I've just recently watered and the soil is still damp, would you advise I flush again to reduce salt build up?

Note: you can see the bronze rust on the sugar leaves in the first image I've attached.

Imho.
Give it a really big drink of plain water. Wouldn't call it a flush. But water until you get a good 30% runoff or so. Then dry it right out, and do it again.
A flush probably isnt necessary. Buds look generally ok. I would only be giving water until harvest though.
The purpling sugar leaves is probably a micro such as molybdenum locking out.
Corey makes a good point about bud rot. It wont hurt to check. Just open one of your largest colas a little to see inside.
I think water until harvest will be fine.

Good luck man.

:peace:

Claflin_BU · Jun 25, 2018

Beachwalker said:
Use pH of 6.5 in Fox Farm ocean forest for best results
-good luck

Tim1987 said:
Imho.
Give it a really big drink of plain water. Wouldn't call it a flush. But water until you get a good 30% runoff or so. Then dry it right out, and do it again.
A flush probably isnt necessary. Buds look generally ok. I would only be giving water until harvest though.
The purpling sugar leaves is probably a micro such as molybdenum locking out.
Corey makes a good point about bud rot. It wont hurt to check. Just open one of your largest colas a little to see inside.
I think water until harvest will be fine.

Good luck man.

Really appreciate the input. Will get on it and post some final harvest pics.

Claflin_BU · Jun 25, 2018

coreywebster said:
Reason I asked if you can pull those bronze leaves off at the stem was because I have had the pleasure of bud rot a couple of times and that bronzing comes hand in hand. Not that im saying its the only cause of bronzing leaves, but better to check and know if there is rot earlier than later. You can trace the leaf back to the stem and look for brown, grey or any discolouration, the leaf will pull out where the stem has lost its strength.

I'll try it out. Hope it's not the case...but I'll let you know what happens. If I did find bud rot, could I still salvage some bud ?

Flowering issue: Bronze rust on sugar leaves...

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