FIM vs Topping: Best for clones with alternating nodes?

Id like to touch on the topic of alternating nodes and asymmetrical growth, I posted this in uncle bens topping technique thread, but after 450 pages, things tend to get lost in there.

https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/151706-uncle-bens-topping-technique-get.html

regionaldragon said:

What if you have alternating nodes instead of pairs of nodes, where do you top?

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Uncle Ben said:

You can't. Nodes must be opposing for the double output thingie. If your nodes are alternating, you won't get the effect as the top node (leafset) will be at a point on the plant that has the greatest collection of auxins, the newest, highest tissue. Auxins control a plant's growing dynamics. When you pinch out the tip of a plant that is in a veg stage (has opposing nodes/leafsets) then basically the plant splits the auxins and sends them to the 2 dormant buds located at the axis of where the leaf petiole attaches to the "trunk". Viola, you get simultaneous output, two new leafsets as shown on page one of this thread.

Good luck,
UB

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Please keep in mind that I am new to this, and bear with me if my questions are redundant. Now, I understand the theory of why topping wont work in the traditional sense when working with alternating nodes. Is there a method of topping that will benefit those of us with clones that are asymmetrical? (Possibly earlier in the stages of nodal growth when the distance between alternating nodes along the main stem is negligible to allow equal supply of auxins to new growth sites?) Is fimming a more viable option to create a situation that will be conducive to multiple mains? Or are we really this limited in our abilities to encourage multiple cola growth?

Also, is the reason for alternating nodes dependent on the location the clones were taken from the mother, or will the clones eventually revert back to even symmetrical growth? Is it strain dependent?

Sorry for the dump of questions, Ive got some experiments of different methods going on in my garden, I'm just wondering which side of the room I should be cheering for lol.


Here is my one week old cut. Clearly you can see the alternating nodes beginning to grow. Not ideal for traditional topping methods, obviously.





Here it is a week later, even easier to see the asymmetrical growth. Would the plant view itself as being on its 7th node? or 4th? (1 and 2 being a pair, 3 and 4, 5 and 6...)




Here is where I "topped" it. It was the closest to a natural pair of nodes that the plant has generated yet. I'm sure once/if the plant gets a chance to stretch, the distance between the nodes would/will widen, but I'm hoping that 'topping' while they are close to a matching might produce the same or a similar effect as it would on a symmetrical plant grown from seed or taken from the main stem of mother with paired nodes.





In M Blaze' thread https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/200413-fimming-my-blaze-complete-how.html it appears that other than the first set of pictures, the technique is used on an asymmetrical plant with alternating nodes, and sucessfully based on the results in the pictures. While "topping" a plant with alternating nodes may mot be desireable, am I correct to assume that "fimming" will give better results on a plant with asymmetrical growth?


I fimmed a bunch and topped a bunch just to see what happens, and I'm fully aware that my efforts may have been futile. My thinking was that I may as well try, as the worst that could happen is I end up with one main cola or some unpredictable asymmetrical cola growth. Thoughts?

I actuallly prefer the growth habits of topped clones to topped seedlings. I usually leave 5 or 6 nodes and find that they all grow out pretty evenly and fill my scrog better than seedlings. On seedlings I top for 4 Uncle Ben style but find that with some strains the top pair maintain too much apical dominance and the lower pair put off very little productive side branching.

I just recently found how to top correctly and I get the desired results even from alternating nodes. I touched the subject in my journal if u have time check it out. I JUST topped another plant with alternating nodes last nigjt (heh heh).

Well, here we are 7 days later. Basically what I found out was that I wasn't fimming far enough down the new growth to get the desired effect and therefore this isn't really a fair test at this point.

This is what the majority of my fim'd plants look like, unfortunately. Clearly you can see the growth of the clipped fan leaves, as well as the location where I re-fimmed the plant today with much more care and attention.



Here is one where the technique worked as planned. Multiple new main's growing.



And another. Unfortunately, this worked successfully on less than 25% of the plants I attempted it on. Now that I know my mistake, I plan to correct it on the remainder and continue the test.




As far as the topping method goes, I was rather surprised at the results. According to the reading I did in https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/151706-uncle-bens-topping-technique-get.html it shouldn't have worked as well and consistently as it did. I got the desired affect in all but 2 of the plants I tried it on. Without actually stating the # of plants, trust me that the sample size is adequate.


Here you can see the location of where the plant was topped, and the extra new main growing.



And another. This method appears to be extremely reliable.




I am beginning to see pros and cons with both methods when it comes to application on clones with alternating nodes. The topping method is extremely simple, and appears to be predictable and relaible, while only giving the ability to add one extra main per application. Fimming, while needing more care and attention (read:work) and a little more practice to perfect your method, gives one the opportunity to get more than 2 mains per application.

I will continue to update next week after the re-fimmed plants bounce back.

Probebly a dumb question, but why not just LST them? I find that when a plant gets to the alternating nodes that simply using LST seems to work best. At least for me. Interesting experiment anyway.

Randm said:

Probebly a dumb question, but why not just LST them? I find that when a plant gets to the alternating nodes that simply using LST seems to work best. At least for me. Interesting experiment anyway.

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Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but lst doesn't necessarily redistribute Auxins to new growth sites, it merely allows light to access the interior regions of a plant and encourage growth at existing sites.The greatest collections of Auxins will still be at the point on the plant that has the newest, highest tissue. Thats why you see an lst'd plant revert back to vertical growth (or growth towards your light source) as soon as its past the forced bend. Lst certainly seems to encourage growth from the lower nodes but at this stage the desired effect I'm after is the multiple main cola growth, and trying to determine which method is more successful when starting on clones with alternating nodes. Also, height isn't really a restriction for me, and lst'ing the # of plants I'm working with probably wouldn't be a constructive use of my time. I can definitely see where it would have its use though, training plant growth has worked in commercial crops for hundreds if not thousands of years. And truth be told, I have a plan for a little training of these plants in a couple of weeks.

They look good. I top clones like that all the time. I've tried fimming too,not too much difference..with fimming I get a couple more nodes. When topping a plant with alternating nodes like on a clone,the top couple of nodes will eventually turn into the dominant ones,but when the nodes grow into branches I drill holes around the rim of the pot and use string to tie down the taller ones to where the tips are at the same height as the lower branches. They all grow evenly after that and the plant ends up with 5 or 6 evenly spaced kolas of the same height.

Here's another update, as promised.

Both sides are doing well, and the plants that I missed the FIM on and re-did are bouncing back nicely. It looks like the correction that I made to my technique worked, and it looks like all the test plants on the FIM side are back on track.


Here is one of the topped plants with its new growth. You can see the location where I topped it right in the middle.



And from above.



One of the whole plant.




I really like the way the plants responded to the topping method. 2 new mains every time, and strong growth from one of the sites at a lower node creating essentially 3 new tops. Very predictable, very responsive, repeatable and 100% success rate. Also it seems as though the plant didn't suffer any negative effects from the treatment. No slowing of growth, no stunting, no misshapen leaves, nothing.


Here is one of the original successful FIM's. Center frame is the new growth.



And from above.



One of the whole plant.




The most reliable result on a successfully FIM'd plant with alternating nodes appears to be new growth in 3 mains. (I know the top shot looks like 4, one is from a lower node.)

Here are a couple with new growth on the plants I re-FIM'd, you can see what I mean about the 3 new mains.




If I had to pick one or the other at this point, I would lean towards the topping. I'm sure my inexperience with FIMing is a factor in my decision thus far, but that itself is another valid argument in the topping column. Topping is basically dummy proof, simply take the new growth off. Having one less bit of guesswork in the garden is a valuable thing to me, and a technique that is predictable and reliable with results that are repeatable could make all the difference. That being said, had I successfully FIM'd in the first place, I might be singing a different tune. The proof is in the pudding, we'll see what the end result is.

FIM side



Top side




See you next week.

trumpy said:

I actuallly prefer the growth habits of topped clones to topped seedlings. I usually leave 5 or 6 nodes and find that they all grow out pretty evenly and fill my scrog better than seedlings. On seedlings I top for 4 Uncle Ben style but find that with some strains the top pair maintain too much apical dominance and the lower pair put off very little productive side branching.

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Im starting to notice the same thing. The growth habits of my topped clones are really impressing me.

BustinScales510 said:

They look good. I top clones like that all the time. I've tried fimming too,not too much difference..with fimming I get a couple more nodes. When topping a plant with alternating nodes like on a clone,the top couple of nodes will eventually turn into the dominant ones,but when the nodes grow into branches I drill holes around the rim of the pot and use string to tie down the taller ones to where the tips are at the same height as the lower branches. They all grow evenly after that and the plant ends up with 5 or 6 evenly spaced kolas of the same height.

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I agree, there doesn't seem to be much difference in the results so far, not really enough to justify the extra time/effort and room for error.

this thread is hilarious. I topped my Cannadential clone when it had alternating nodes. It now has 6 main tops. I bet I get at least a few pounds off her. So for someone to say you can't top a plant when it has alternating nodes is wrong, well because I just did it. Losing a lot of respect for this site. I'm experimenting for myself and finding out a lot of what I read on here isn't exactly the truth.

trumpy said:

I actuallly prefer the growth habits of topped clones to topped seedlings. I usually leave 5 or 6 nodes and find that they all grow out pretty evenly and fill my scrog better than seedlings. On seedlings I top for 4 Uncle Ben style but find that with some strains the top pair maintain too much apical dominance and the lower pair put off very little productive side branching.

Click to expand...

this was my experience too. i topped 12 plants ben's way. 5 or 6 had 4 decent sized colas, the rest had 2 decent colas and 2 little T rex arms looking branches.

i didn't top for years preferring to tie them down, but i started changing things up a bit due to my changing from a 1000 watt to a 600. i've topped my current clones twice. the 2nd time i topped 3 nodes on each plant. i'm hoping for some shorter plants this round.

fatboyOGOF said:

this was my experience too. i topped 12 plants ben's way. 5 or 6 had 4 decent sized colas, the rest had 2 decent colas and 2 little T rex arms looking branches.

i didn't top for years preferring to tie them down, but i started changing things up a bit due to my changing from a 1000 watt to a 600. i've topped my current clones twice. the 2nd time i topped 3 nodes on each plant. i'm hoping for some shorter plants this round.

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When you top "my" way, sometimes the top 2 "trunks" will be dominant, a little bigger than the 2 below it. Here is a shot of one of my recent plants grown outdoors. This shows the scaffold perfectly and does reflect that the upper colas were a little stockier than the lower ones. By the same token the 4 colas plant on the first page of my instructional thread reflects all colas about the same size and weight, especially the second shot taken outdoors.



BTW, I updated the pinned topping thread with a FAQ.

Good luck,
Uncle Ben

I think someone learning to top their plants to get any number of "tops" would be best served just taking a small plant and keep it in veg... Just practice. Do your topping, then watch it grow. It is great for keeping short mother plants. You get more consistent cuts as well.

It's sort of one of those things that takes a 5 page essay to explain but takes a very minimal effort to just figure out for yourself. Obviously, UB nails it.
After seeing how the plant reacts just a couple times it's like tying your shoe. If you want to REALLY space your main growth then use LST. Poke a little hole in the side of the container and tie the new main branch back as soon as it becomes large enough to do so. Done.

I have clones with alternating nodes. I want to do a scrog and need to either top or fim them but i'm not sure which to do. And i'm not sure where i would even top them since there are no 2 branches side by side...

I top the main and FIM the rest. When they're growing you just focus on keeping everything growing evenly. This will vary from supercropping to plain pinching. More towards the end when everything is growing more evenly I'll just pinch the stem of the highest branch(es) accordingly every so often.