Feminized vs Regular seeds

mr sunshine said:

Feminised seeds are natural. Mother nature has been making Feminised seeds since day one.

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show me one i mean really like i said i have tried hundreds of times and yet no success in creating a hermie
hermies nanners are from unstable gentics end of story of course we here that its a natural thing how many times has it happend to you ??? with a stable strain ??? me never
bottom line feminized seeds and inbreeding depressions are quit common in fact feminized seeds are BOTTLE NECKED

I respect both you guys @Darth Vapour and @testiclees but honestly I think some seed banks are breeding natural hermies and selling them as feminized seeds. One thing I can say about Dutch Passion is they're feminized blueberry never hermied.

...Artificial Isolation or 'Selective Breeding' produces a similar effect. When creating a new breed from an attractive mutation....

Here the gene pool is initially necessarily small with frequent crossings between related plants. Some varieties which resulted from spontaneous mutation have been fraught with problems........If we were talking about dogs we would look at problems such as hip dysplasia in the German Shepherd and Patella luxation which are more common in certain breeds and breeding lines than in others, suggesting that past inbreeding has distributed the faulty genes.

Selecting suitable outcrosses can reintroduce healthy genes, which might otherwise be lost, without adversely affecting the strain/breed as long as the outcross has mostly recessive traits....

Most all zoos that are engaged in captive breeding programs are aware of this need to outcross their own stock to animals from other collections.

...Captive (closet) plant or animal populations are at risk from inbreeding since relatively few mates are available to the animals/plants, hence zoos must borrow animals from each other in order to maintain the genetic diversity of offspring....and cannabis cultivators might share clones or seeds.....

It's plain to see that inbreeding holds problems for anyone involved in animal husbandry or cannabis cultivation - from canary fanciers to alfalfa farmers.

When certain dog breeders attempted to change the appearance of the Pug dog so that it would have a flatter face and a rounder head, this resulted in more c-sections being required and other congenital problems. A few of these dog breeds are loosing there natural ability to give birth without human assistance!....

In the dog world, a number of breeds now exhibit hereditary faults due to the over-use of a particularly popular stud which was later found to carry a gene detrimental to health. By the time the problems came to light they had already become widespread as the stud had been extensively used to try to improove the breed. In the past some breeds were crossed with dogs from different breeds in order to improve the breed, but nowadays the emphasis is on preserving breed purity....... and avoiding mongrels.

Those involved with minority breeds (rare breeds) of livestock and cannabis face a dilemma as they try to balance purity against the risk of genetic conformity.

Enthusiasts preserve rare varieties of plants because their genes may prove useful to growers/breeders in the future, but at the same time the low numbers of the plants involved means that it runs the risk of becoming unhealthily inbred.

When trying to bring a strain back from the point of extinction, the introduction of 'new genetics' through crossing with an unrelated strain is usually a last resort because it can change the very character of the strain/variety being preserved. In livestock, successive generations of progeny must be bred back to a purebred ancestor for 6 - 8 generations before the offspring can be considered truly purebred themselves.......With cannabis you could say that we can achieve virtual stability after 4 generations and any further generations in-bred there-off may show some form of in-breeding depression or could even show something better!! .....

In the 'fancy' dog category, breed purity is equally desirable, but can be taken to ridiculous lengths.....

Actually some fancy dog enthusiasts will not recognize 'hybrid' breeds such as the white or Parti-Schnauzer because it does produce variants. Breeds which cannot produce some degree of variability among their offspring risk finding themselves in exactly the same predicament as Wolves and Giant Pandas.... Such fancies have lost sight of the fact that they are registering 'pedigree' dogs, not 'pure-bred' dogs, especially since they may recognize breeds which require occasional out crossing to maintain the breed.. ....and so not exactly pure-bred....

Most cannabis breeders are well aware of potential pitfalls associated with inbreeding although it is very tempting for a novice to continue to use one or two closely related lines in order to preserve or improve a strain. Breeding to an unrelated line of the same strain (wherever possible) or out crossing to another variety (wherever permissible) can certainly ensure vigour. Despite the risk of importing a few undesirable traits which may take a while to successfully breed out, and here the skill and patience of the breeder comes much into play....

...OUT-CROSSING: can prevent a breed from stagnating by introducing fresh genes into the gene pool. It is important to outcross to a variety of different plants, considered to be genetically 'sound' .....(do any of their previous offspring exhibit undesirable traits?) .....and preferably not closely related to each other.

Question:....How can you tell if a breed/strain or line is becoming too closely inbred?

..One sign can be that the variety or strain gets more prone too disease..... Mutations such as whorled philotaxy, unusual leaf shape and plant size (dwarfism or gigantism) and reduced calyx production/size can also effect fertilization and procreation as well as growth. There can also be an up-side where the plants can exhibit new and interesting colours/yeilds e.t.c......you never can tell exactly what the plants will show through mutation.......it could be something that a breeder is looking for and is actually quite happy to find....

...Inbreeding is what you might call a two-edged sword. Upon reflection and on the one hand a certain amount of inbreeding can most definitely fix and improve a variety/strain or breed tremendously to produce excellent quality plants or even animals........On the other hand, excessive inbreeding can limit the gene pool so that the breed loses any vigour what-so-ever.

....Strains in the early stages of development are most vulnerable as populations can be small and the plants may be closely related to one another. It is up to the responsible breeder to balance inbreeding against various crossings with unrelated plants in order to maintain the overall health of the line/strain or breed concerned........

...Inbreeding can produce outstanding results initially....but eventually to maintain distinct vigour it is absolutely necessary to introduce new genetic material to prevent in-breeding depression and eventual extinction of the line.......Once again here the skill of the breeder comes into play to try and preserve the line by introducing plants that mostly have recessive traits that will not dominate when paired with the in-bred line....

Darth Vapour said:

show me one i mean really like i said i have tried hundreds of times and yet no success in creating a hermie
hermies nanners are from unstable gentics end of story of course we here that its a natural thing how many times has it happend to you ??? with a stable strain ??? me never
bottom line feminized seeds and inbreeding depressions are quit common in fact feminized seeds are BOTTLE NECKED

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Try letting the plant over ripen. Just dont pull it till it herms.. In some cases that might not work but we're not mother nature.. that bitch is devastating.. we can't compare our grow rooms to the harshest outdoor conditions.

Darth Vapour said:

THink what you like when you self a plant you dead ended it there is no getting better but in fact deterioration begins facts

Is Selfing Selfing a Dead End? Dead End? „ Most phylogenetic phylogenetic studies studies indicate that indicate that selfing selfing is derived. derived. „ Arises multiple times in a Arises multiple times in a phylogeny. phylogeny. „ Predictions (from theory) and Predictions (from theory) and observations indicate that: observations indicate that: „ Selfing Selfing lineages do not lineages do not diversify. diversify. „ Selfing Selfing lineages are short lineages are short-lived. „ Exceptions…. Exceptions…. „ Evolution of Evolution of dioecy on islands. on islands.

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When I self, I want what I have. Not something else.....I only "dead ended" it to keep it the same.....I generally have no intention to introduce anything else to it.....I don't want it to diversify........That's the point.......

Doc

racerboy71 said:

http://lmgtfy.com/?q= rhodelisation

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True hermaphroditism is relatively uncommon in cannabis. A true hermaphrodite is a plant that bears both staminate and pistillate parts on the same flower. The term "monoecious" refers to plants that bear male and female flowers on the same plant, but in different locations. Being that cannabis is a diocious plant, monoecious plants are much more common than true hermaphroditic plants are.
Hermaphroditism is very common in nature, but usually associated with true-flowering plants... the majority of plants and most flowering annuals/perennials in your yard are hermaphrodites, aka self-pollinating flowers. Hermaphroditism is considered 'perfect' flowers and Cannabis has what is considered 'imperfect' flowers.

Understanding epigenetics can be challenging. Epigenetics is the study of cellular and physiological trait variations and functionally relevant changes made to the genome NOT caused by changes to the DNA sequence. Genetics are based on changes made to the genotype, however, changes in gene expression or cellular phenotype of epigenetics have totally different causes. These epigenetic changes may last one generation or they may be multi-generational, even though they do not involve changing the underlying DNA sequences... it is non-genetic factors that cause these genes to express themselves differently.

mr sunshine said:

Try letting the plant over ripen. Just dont pull it till it herms.. In some cases that might not work but we're not mother nature.. that bitch is devastating.. we can't compare our grow rooms to the harshest outdoor conditions.

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True but listen i am presently growing north of the 60th parallel temps have been - 4 in mornings and up to 18 in afternoons winds 80 mph if this is not any indication of harsh climate ??? or major stress on the plant i do not know what is then ...

Yet i would place bets if this plant was from fem seed she be throwing everything at me including nanners what ever but its not cause its reg seeds
but again cherry pie x pck strain probably stable


The fact remains when you look at your nose and say to your self well does n look like my moms or my dads but its identical to my grandfather's snot box ,,, You should ask your self why and how could that of happened ,,,,
Cause really at the end of the day the DNA gets thrown in bag and shaken like rolling the dice ,, you will not always get the same numbers popping up in sequence but again the truth the real truth is that bag of DNA that the fem seed has is half full now so 50 percent lose when its shaken up and its bottlenecked this is not a good thing ask your self why with S1 cross there can be still variations ??? actually a shit more then F1
Typically an F1 of a cross will contain genes from two unrelated plants and typically an F1 will display a 1:3:1 ratio where the majority of plants will display a mixture of the two plants dominant traits.
It is at the F2 generation of the same cross that will start to display a larger swing in phenotype.

The S1 (self pollinated 1st gen) on the other hand does not contain genes from two unrelated plants, as does an F1. The selfing (S1) is more akin to an F2 than an F1 (in reality the S1 is an F2). It is in fact the second generation where related genetic maps are crossed. And as such the S1 will show more variation than a regular bred F1. HOWEVER the genetic maps used are nearly identical in the S1 so the variation is not as noticeable as it would be with an F2.
If the female used is homozygous the variation will be far less than if she is heterozygous.
Confused yet?

The selfing will also lack the hybrid vigor that a true F1 enjoys.

The reversal that uses two unrelated females can enjoy hybrid vigor and will also display phenotypes as an F1 would. The reversal (R1) using unrelated plants is in fact an F1, whereas the selfing (S1) is in fact an F2.
A reversal that uses one female for the mother, and her sister is forced for pollen, is in fact an F2. However the cross had a bit more genetic material to work with than the selfing and as a result can display a bit more diversity.

Darth Vapour said:

Most cannabis breeders are well aware of potential pitfalls associated with inbreeding although it is very tempting for a novice to continue to use one or two closely related lines in order to preserve or improve a strain. Breeding to an unrelated line of the same strain (wherever possible) or out crossing to another variety (wherever permissible) can certainly ensure vigour. Despite the risk of importing a few undesirable traits which may take a while to successfully breed out, and here the skill and patience of the breeder comes much into play....

...OUT-CROSSING: can prevent a breed from stagnating by introducing fresh genes into the gene pool. It is important to outcross to a variety of different plants, considered to be genetically 'sound' .....(do any of their previous offspring exhibit undesirable traits?) .....and preferably not closely related to each other.

Question:....How can you tell if a breed/strain or line is becoming too closely inbred?

..One sign can be that the variety or strain gets more prone too disease..... Mutations such as whorled philotaxy, unusual leaf shape and plant size (dwarfism or gigantism) and reduced calyx production/size can also effect fertilization and procreation as well as growth. There can also be an up-side where the plants can exhibit new and interesting colours/yeilds e.t.c......you never can tell exactly what the plants will show through mutation.......it could be something that a breeder is looking for and is actually quite happy to find....

...Inbreeding is what you might call a two-edged sword. Upon reflection and on the one hand a certain amount of inbreeding can most definitely fix and improve a variety/strain or breed tremendously to produce excellent quality plants or even animals........On the other hand, excessive inbreeding can limit the gene pool so that the breed loses any vigour what-so-ever.

....Strains in the early stages of development are most vulnerable as populations can be small and the plants may be closely related to one another. It is up to the responsible breeder to balance inbreeding against various crossings with unrelated plants in order to maintain the overall health of the line/strain or breed concerned........

...Inbreeding can produce outstanding results initially....but eventually to maintain distinct vigour it is absolutely necessary to introduce new genetic material to prevent in-breeding depression and eventual extinction of the line.......Once again here the skill of the breeder comes into play to try and preserve the line by introducing plants that mostly have recessive traits that will not dominate when paired with the in-bred line....

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but what traits? ultimate thc? or everything else....bit of a difference in the way that has progressed since the sensi came on the scene.....

Darth Vapour said:

True but listen i am presently growing north of the 60th parallel temps have been - 4 in mornings and up to 18 in afternoons winds 80 mph if this is not any indication of harsh climate ??? or major stress on the plant i do not know what is then ...

Yet i would place bets if this plant was from fem seed she be throwing everything at me including nanners what ever but its not cause its reg seeds
but again cherry pie x pck strain probably stable


The fact remains when you look at your nose and say to your self well does n look like my moms or my dads but its identical to my grandfather's snot box ,,, You should ask your self why and how could that of happened ,,,,
Cause really at the end of the day the DNA gets thrown in bag and shaken like rolling the dice ,, you will not always get the same numbers popping up in sequence but again the truth the real truth is that bag of DNA that the fem seed has is half full now so 50 percent lose when its shaken up and its bottlenecked this is not a good thing ask your self why with S1 cross there can be still variations ??? actually a shit more then F1
Typically an F1 of a cross will contain genes from two unrelated plants and typically an F1 will display a 1:3:1 ratio where the majority of plants will display a mixture of the two plants dominant traits.
It is at the F2 generation of the same cross that will start to display a larger swing in phenotype.

The S1 (self pollinated 1st gen) on the other hand does not contain genes from two unrelated plants, as does an F1. The selfing (S1) is more akin to an F2 than an F1 (in reality the S1 is an F2). It is in fact the second generation where related genetic maps are crossed. And as such the S1 will show more variation than a regular bred F1. HOWEVER the genetic maps used are nearly identical in the S1 so the variation is not as noticeable as it would be with an F2.
If the female used is homozygous the variation will be far less than if she is heterozygous.
Confused yet?

The selfing will also lack the hybrid vigor that a true F1 enjoys.

The reversal that uses two unrelated females can enjoy hybrid vigor and will also display phenotypes as an F1 would. The reversal (R1) using unrelated plants is in fact an F1, whereas the selfing (S1) is in fact an F2.
A reversal that uses one female for the mother, and her sister is forced for pollen, is in fact an F2. However the cross had a bit more genetic material to work with than the selfing and as a result can display a bit more diversity.

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At least we can all agree that the United States of America didn't fake the moon landing.

mr sunshine said:

At least we can all agree that the United States of America didn't fake the moon landing.

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lol well looks like USA cannot blame anyone for bombing a hospital this time round as for faked moon landing i would say its still up in the air leaning more to its been faked

mr sunshine said:

At least we can all agree that the United States of America didn't fake the moon landing.

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No, I doubt we can lol.

New Age United said:

I respect both you guys @Darth Vapour and @testiclees but honestly I think some seed banks are breeding natural hermies and selling them as feminized seeds. One thing I can say about Dutch Passion is they're feminized blueberry never hermied.

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Well it did when i tried them 8-9 years ago and haven't tried them since. I grew it from cuttings for years and only issue I had was it was prone to bud rot due to bud structure.

Wavels said:

I avoided using fem seeds when they were initially made available. I was leery.
After several years I decided to give some a try.
Some strains that I wanted to try only offered fem seeds.
Never had any problems with them. And I realized that they enable me to be able to try more strains in the same grow area.
I do not like to run any less than five seeds of any strain in order give it a better chance to show me what it's got genetically.
I now do not hesitate to buy fem seeds.
I have been growing since the '70s.

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Ditto, have two fem's in my garden that weren't available as regs anywhere. Would have missed out on a couple of killer strains. Prefer regs as I like to cross but if not available wtf.

Darth Vapour said:

...Artificial Isolation or 'Selective Breeding' produces a similar effect. When creating a new breed from an attractive mutation....

Here the gene pool is initially necessarily small with frequent crossings between related plants. Some varieties which resulted from spontaneous mutation have been fraught with problems........If we were talking about dogs we would look at problems such as hip dysplasia in the German Shepherd and Patella luxation which are more common in certain breeds and breeding lines than in others, suggesting that past inbreeding has distributed the faulty genes.

Selecting suitable outcrosses can reintroduce healthy genes, which might otherwise be lost, without adversely affecting the strain/breed as long as the outcross has mostly recessive traits....

Most all zoos that are engaged in captive breeding programs are aware of this need to outcross their own stock to animals from other collections.

...Captive (closet) plant or animal populations are at risk from inbreeding since relatively few mates are available to the animals/plants, hence zoos must borrow animals from each other in order to maintain the genetic diversity of offspring....and cannabis cultivators might share clones or seeds.....

It's plain to see that inbreeding holds problems for anyone involved in animal husbandry or cannabis cultivation - from canary fanciers to alfalfa farmers.

When certain dog breeders attempted to change the appearance of the Pug dog so that it would have a flatter face and a rounder head, this resulted in more c-sections being required and other congenital problems. A few of these dog breeds are loosing there natural ability to give birth without human assistance!....

In the dog world, a number of breeds now exhibit hereditary faults due to the over-use of a particularly popular stud which was later found to carry a gene detrimental to health. By the time the problems came to light they had already become widespread as the stud had been extensively used to try to improove the breed. In the past some breeds were crossed with dogs from different breeds in order to improve the breed, but nowadays the emphasis is on preserving breed purity....... and avoiding mongrels.

Those involved with minority breeds (rare breeds) of livestock and cannabis face a dilemma as they try to balance purity against the risk of genetic conformity.

Enthusiasts preserve rare varieties of plants because their genes may prove useful to growers/breeders in the future, but at the same time the low numbers of the plants involved means that it runs the risk of becoming unhealthily inbred.

When trying to bring a strain back from the point of extinction, the introduction of 'new genetics' through crossing with an unrelated strain is usually a last resort because it can change the very character of the strain/variety being preserved. In livestock, successive generations of progeny must be bred back to a purebred ancestor for 6 - 8 generations before the offspring can be considered truly purebred themselves.......With cannabis you could say that we can achieve virtual stability after 4 generations and any further generations in-bred there-off may show some form of in-breeding depression or could even show something better!! .....

In the 'fancy' dog category, breed purity is equally desirable, but can be taken to ridiculous lengths.....

Actually some fancy dog enthusiasts will not recognize 'hybrid' breeds such as the white or Parti-Schnauzer because it does produce variants. Breeds which cannot produce some degree of variability among their offspring risk finding themselves in exactly the same predicament as Wolves and Giant Pandas.... Such fancies have lost sight of the fact that they are registering 'pedigree' dogs, not 'pure-bred' dogs, especially since they may recognize breeds which require occasional out crossing to maintain the breed.. ....and so not exactly pure-bred....

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Sorry DV but I fail to see the correlation between the inbreeding of animals and plants to an S1. Your talking about two different things genetically speaking I would think, but failed genetics in trade school. My German Shorthair is an inbred imbecile that points at birds, and just sometimes will pick them up for you if he feels like it. But he wasnt selfed! His daddy played a part in his stupidity, so is that not totally different, seeings how there's a dad? Perhaps if we selfed his mom, first he'd be a girl, and smarter and calmer lol. Also when you say dead ending, how so? Cant you just at any time re breed the femmed seed with dad, well great grand dad too I guess?

smokefacekillah said:

hmmm this is interesting because I was just assuming that Regular Female plants might grow better buds than Its Fem seed counter part, But what about Hermie plants?

I've grown from Seeds bought online, an bag seed (Side note: the herbies seeds did not make it in my garden) So I'm assuming the bag seed I've had is coming from just a natural Hermie plant that lean more towards the female side, I'm assuming this because these weren't Mexican shawg seeds, The buds didn't seem to suffer any stress an you get about maybe like 2 seeds in a Oz.

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Mexican brick seeds are good. Plenty of fire to be found. Most ate fruity sativas. Herbie's is good to. They replaced some seeds that didn't germ for me. Plus freebies for the trouble.

racerboy71 said:

of for people who have no interest in breeding and or only have a small space to work in and don't have the space to waste months and months on a plant only for it to turn out a male..
there's absolutely no difference between fem'ed seeds and regular sex seeds, other than fem'ed seeds are something like 99.9% likely to become females rather than 50% 50% from regs..

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You now how fem seeds are made right? Theyre piosoned.

Dont tell me there is any difference.

Ive been growing two strains primarily. One is NL#5. Ive done it from both fem seeds and reg seeds several times each and there is no comparison. The reg seeds produce stronger plants and yield far more i the same growing environment. Ive done the same now with white russian fems and regs....same deal.

Fem seeds suck. Especially when they hermie...

I have SSH fem, SLH fem, as well as others growing. I also have regs. I I clone the phenos I like. I don't have a hermie problem with either. The only time I've had that problem was from heat.

Budley Doright said:

Monsato gmo seeds are in a totally different catogory my friend, just stop lol. They are truly genetically modified, femmed seeds are not lol.

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Ummm....fem seeds is pretty much the basic definition genetically modifying.... thats where it all started...

Gquebed said:

You now how fem seeds are made right? Theyre piosoned.

Dont tell me there is any difference.

Ive been growing two strains primarily. One is NL#5. Ive done it from both fem seeds and reg seeds several times each and there is no comparison. The reg seeds produce stronger plants and yield far more i the same growing environment. Ive done the same now with white russian fems and regs....same deal.

Fem seeds suck. Especially when they hermie...

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Some use rodelation or however it is spelled. Cannabis, if left to over ripen, in response to no pollen, will throw some nanners. It is a survival mechanism.

If that pollen is used how is it poisoned?

It is illegal to grow where I am. Four plants is a misdemeanor. I can't have a bunch going. For that reason I use FEMS.