Fan Leafs. Blockers of Light Or Energy Producers???

PJ Diaz said:

The thing is all this stuff is super strain dependent, and even within that genotype specific, and even further phenotype specific. You really can't say that one way or the other is the best. It really depends on the personality of the plant, as well as environmental conditions.

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Totally... genetics, grower, setup... all make for different plant growth and needs... there is a million ways to grow this plant.
I saw your pic with the V&B test plant... I could see those plants benefiting from some air flow. Although, picking leaves out is not the only way to achieve airflow...

I hear people give their reasoning why defoliating is not harmful in their situation... I did the same thing. But with my genetics, my space, etc, I have seen my best yields since no longer defoliating and minimal training.

I still pick out lower growth (minimal lollipop) so i can hand water each plan with ease... I pull off the leaves and buds that would be otherwise splashed with nutrient solution. In some peoples garden, that wouldn't be a problem... but it is in mine.

I'm no UB clone. But one by one, I find myself adopting his methods and yielding more every time. Some of his clones running around here are an extreme displeasure to come in contact with though. That is for sure. I get tired of seeing people copy and paste his words and calling others retards. Fucking lame..

Slab said:

Have you realized that you shit the bed this run, Youngblood ? If you let us we can get you to the mountain top.

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what on earth makes you think that? my ladies are doing fine.

Did a quick side by side the other week defoliation test on plants I had just switched into flower. This is far from scientific but has showed some results.


Defoiled plant is on the left, I removed all large fan leaves except for the leaves at the peak of each branch. Its hard to tell as the darn light is in the way but the plant on the right is a little smaller.


Again the defoiled plant is a little taller than the plant beside it on the left. Plz ignore my ghetto temp gauge hanging by tuck tape. Use that stuff for everything, like a growers Red Green (Canadian Joke)


A week and a half later. Now notice that the defoiled plant is lush and green again with plenty of fan leaves. The plants on either side or now a few inches taller than the defoiled plant.

This leads me to believe that the plant that was defoiled used its energy to produce new fans rather than upward growth. The internodes are now tighter on the defoiled plant as well. Kinda obvious result and makes sense. Now its up to the grower to decide whether they can use this to increase yields. For my situation with vertical lighting and a shorter Indica dominant plant it probably didn't help at all as these plants don't stretch much anyway and getting more height in this case would be beneficial to take advantage of the vertical lighting.

However for someone with limited height and/or plants that stretch a lot defoliating could be used to control height and decrease internodal distance. The shorter the internodes the more bud sites you have the more bud you have in the end. Again not a scientific thing just an observation and an opinion by me done with a quick test.

I will be defoliating again after stretch and will be leaving a few untouched to see the results of that.

Thanks for the real world info bro. +rep

keebo3000 said:

what on earth makes you think that? my ladies are doing fine.

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It helps others to validate their own decisions by insulting people like you and me who are willing to try different things in an effort to see real world results for ourselves.

Nice... +Rep for sharing some side by side work.

sheik yerbouti said:

This leads me to believe that the plant that was defoiled used its energy to produce new fans rather than upward growth. The internodes are now tighter on the defoiled plant as well. Kinda obvious result and makes sense.

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Interesting find. I have noticed what I thought at the time was less horizontal and vertical growth, but I am not sure if number of bud sites or node length was changed. The last plant that I heavily defoliated was a Sweet Pink Grapefruit leaning plant from Chimera... Blueberry x Grapefruit. It was not a very high yielding plant... I would have to try it out again and watch for that.

sheik yerbouti said:

The shorter the internodes the more bud sites you have the more bud you have in the end. Again not a scientific thing just an observation and an opinion by me done with a quick test.

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Have you found more bud sites equates to larger yields with your genetics or is that something you are assuming? I have found yields to be the same. My higher yielding plants at 4 plants per 600hps produce about 4 oz... whether the plant has 112 1gram buds or 48 4gram buds... unchanged. Density, bud size and bag appeal however are much much more consistent throughout the plant with fewer but larger buds, or less bud sites.

I'm finding my plants sort of have a limit on weight they will produce... optimal or less optimal conditions can +/- yield, but getting those extra oz's comes down to branching and spacing as efficiently as possible. Some genetics do it themselves (my green crack) some need a little more help (my NLights).

When container size, diet, health, environment are optimal it then becomes about spacing and branching. I'm finding that when the plant is not trained (mild, moderate or mutilation) my bud sites are far fewer, buds are larger, spacing is more efficient.

The best part about the low number of bud sites/larger buds is that there is no popcorn. I used to make hash and butter with the popcorn but now literally every bud can hang in a top shelf jar without looking out of place.

We have 2 totally different grows though...
I'm thinking with short plants and vertical bulbs you are not having as much popcorn growth as most horizontal bulb growers.

Just like you said about your findings... mine are far from controlled experiments.

I've heard people refer to plant "training" as trying to think for the plant.
After you have adequate everything, yield comes down to productivity with your space.. grams/m2 sort of thing...
Plants have an excellent ability to fill space (assuming adequate growing conditions).
Tricking a plant into being more productive than it knows how to be is quite the trick... these days, I'm not convinced that many people are truly improving yield by thinking for the plant.

There are serious exceptions to the rule in horticulture... Imagine what shitty apples we would grab at the grocery store if we were not thinking for the plant by utilizing grafting.
Then there are the more far reaching arguments with some... like preventing pollination of cannabis. You could go out there and say that ALL female populations of cannabis during the flower period is in a way thinking for the plant.

I think that with artificial lighting the plant needs a little trickery to efficiently branch,.. i've been using mild lst... tomato cages, twist ties and an eye for developing a canopy with some gentle assistance.
I think the need for that trick is actually the need to correct an aspect of our gardens that are not optimal... which is intense lighting coming from a dense light source rather than the thorough, multiple angled and spread light that comes from the sun and its movement throughout the day... a light mover could correct this problem in some gardens too though.

... Fuck, I'm just rambling... the tester buds for Killing Fields are churning thoughts in my head. Some of the above might be hard to follow. Haha.

Interesting find. I have noticed what I thought at the time was less horizontal and vertical growth, but I am not sure if number of bud sites or node length was changed. The last plant that I heavily defoliated was a Sweet Pink Grapefruit leaning plant from Chimera... Blueberry x Grapefruit. It was not a very high yielding plant... I would have to try it out again and watch for that.

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I'm pretty confident that with this strain the plants that were not defoliated have a longer distance between nodes then the defoiled plant, again though with this strain it prob won't make a difference, however with a strain that does stretch and you want to control that because of height limitations or you just want tighter nugs this could help. Not really a way to get bigger yields just a way to help control your grow.

Have you found more bud sites equates to larger yields with your genetics or is that something you are assuming? I have found yields to be the same. My higher yielding plants at 4 plants per 600hps produce about 4 oz... whether the plant has 112 1gram buds or 48 4gram buds... unchanged. Density, bud size and bag appeal however are much much more consistent throughout the plant with fewer but larger buds, or less bud sites.

I'm finding my plants sort of have a limit on weight they will produce... optimal or less optimal conditions can +/- yield, but getting those extra oz's comes down to branching and spacing as efficiently as possible. Some genetics do it themselves (my green crack) some need a little more help (my NLights).

When container size, diet, health, environment are optimal it then becomes about spacing and branching. I'm finding that when the plant is not trained (mild, moderate or mutilation) my bud sites are far fewer, buds are larger, spacing is more efficient.

The best part about the low number of bud sites/larger buds is that there is no popcorn. I used to make hash and butter with the popcorn but now literally every bud can hang in a top shelf jar without looking out of place.

We have 2 totally different grows though...
I'm thinking with short plants and vertical bulbs you are not having as much popcorn growth as most horizontal bulb growers.

Just like you said about your findings... mine are far from controlled experiments.

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Really glad you posted your finding on this topic, I am only talking theory and opinion when it comes to shortening internodal distance to increase yields. I'm always experimenting to finds ways to make my grow better but haven't yet taken a full grow from beginning to end and weighed the difference. I have always wondered the same thing about creating more internodes or branches/tops on a plant with relation to overall yield. Interesting that you say your plants always get the same weight no matter what kind of topping of training you do you just can control the quality of the nugs. Basically your plant only has x amount of energy to for flowering and its going to go to whatever sites there are whether is 4 big nugs or 15 smaller nugs. Something I have always wondered for sure. All the fimming topping and training we do is more about filling the space appropriately so to maximize the potential for harvest by utilizing your space efficiently but the actual amount of bud sites on a plant doesn't make a difference in yield. Makes sense for sure.

If you do have a limited height though, as long as defoliating doesn't slow root growth as well, if you can slow the vertical growth you will have a more mature plant with a larger root mass therefor the plants will have larger amount of energy to give to flowering.

Interesting stuff, one thing I have noticed in the past without a doubt is defoliating after stretch allows light to penetrate the canopy and thickens the lower buds.

Good stuff Hank, really glad you posted your findings

sheik yerbouti said:

I'm pretty confident that with this strain the plants that were not defoliated have a longer distance between nodes then the defoiled plant

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I'm glad you posted that... I've considered keeping small plants in the corners and border of the grow... elevated on a shelf that sits maybe 12-18 inches below the height of the bulb.
If i go through with that I'll need some height/node space control tricks. I'll have to try it out.

I remain unconvinced as to the advantages of defoliation.

about to cut the leaves again... here is a brief update on my defoliated ladies

ArCaned said:

I remain unconvinced as to the advantages of defoliation.

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in this thing of ours, there aren't any studys done on it publicized so they only way to be "convinced" one way or the other is to experiment yourself, any thing else is just listening to a debate between people who have defoliated and love it, and people who have never done it tell you how stupid it is( stupid right?)

I grow Mazar Kush which is a 100% indica and I can tell you from my perpetual setup that I ran into popcorn nug problems due to the insane amount of fan leaves this breed likes to throw out. For a few harvests I did not defoliate until one plant just pissed me off enough with the amount of popcorn. Since then I have defoliated and started lolly popping every single plant and have seen an increase in density to the lower nodes.

sheik yerbouti said:

Did a quick side by side the other week defoliation test on plants I had just switched into flower. This is far from scientific but has showed some results.

Defoiled plant is on the left, I removed all large fan leaves except for the leaves at the peak of each branch. Its hard to tell as the darn light is in the way but the plant on the right is a little smaller.


Again the defoiled plant is a little taller than the plant beside it on the left. Plz ignore my ghetto temp gauge hanging by tuck tape. Use that stuff for everything, like a growers Red Green (Canadian Joke)


A week and a half later. Now notice that the defoiled plant is lush and green again with plenty of fan leaves. The plants on either side or now a few inches taller than the defoiled plant.

This leads me to believe that the plant that was defoiled used its energy to produce new fans rather than upward growth. The internodes are now tighter on the defoiled plant as well. Kinda obvious result and makes sense. Now its up to the grower to decide whether they can use this to increase yields. For my situation with vertical lighting and a shorter Indica dominant plant it probably didn't help at all as these plants don't stretch much anyway and getting more height in this case would be beneficial to take advantage of the vertical lighting.

However for someone with limited height and/or plants that stretch a lot defoliating could be used to control height and decrease internodal distance. The shorter the internodes the more bud sites you have the more bud you have in the end. Again not a scientific thing just an observation and an opinion by me done with a quick test.

I will be defoliating again after stretch and will be leaving a few untouched to see the results of that.

Click to expand...

Are those different strains? The plant on the right looks to be thicker stemmed with less side branching.

RCgrowerman said:

I grow Mazar Kush which is a 100% indica and I can tell you from my perpetual setup that I ran into popcorn nug problems due to the insane amount of fan leaves this breed likes to throw out. For a few harvests I did not defoliate until one plant just pissed me off enough with the amount of popcorn. Since then I have defoliated and started lolly popping every single plant and have seen an increase in density to the lower nodes.

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Case and point.

RCgrowerman said:

I grow Mazar Kush which is a 100% indica and I can tell you from my perpetual setup that I ran into popcorn nug problems due to the insane amount of fan leaves this breed likes to throw out. For a few harvests I did not defoliate until one plant just pissed me off enough with the amount of popcorn. Since then I have defoliated and started lolly popping every single plant and have seen an increase in density to the lower nodes.

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Did the exact same thing, had a SOG grow with a heavy indica hash plant, after defoliating the popcorn buds that didn't receive light before were usuable nice nugs.

Uncle Pirate said:

Are those different strains? The plant on the right looks to be thicker stemmed with less side branching.

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Ya def same strain, just didn't grown identical

keebo3000 said:

Case and point.

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Misleading......lolipopping cuts off the lowest buds so that is misleading compared to defoliating. Not only that, but others here are saying after lollipop, defoliating etc that the lowest buds grew. Well,.they were getting older so that's misleading as well. If a leaf isn't attached to a bud site then it can be cut without worries. Trim a leaf from a buds base and you're causing the buds to get less because more will be used to repair the site. Think of your skin when you get a cut. It scabs then heals. A plant is the same. I trim nothing above 8-10 nodes at most. Below that point I take the largest leaves that grow from the main stem at each branch. If you do that then the lower buds will push right thru any other leaves in the way.

Anyone notice that when you defoliate the leaves grow back quickly? You ever think you're plant does this because it doesn't have enough surface area absorbing the light. Because I've noticed that my leaves don't grow as fast if I don't trim. If you want the lower buds to swell then trim lower buds that appear after 3 weeks, roughly. My lowest buds are swelling with the same speed as the tops and I've only done these things. Never trim feeder leaves. Those are the ones at the base of the bud. Those are the largest which means they absorb the most light.

joe blow greenthumb said:

Anyone notice that when you defoliate the leaves grow back quickly?.

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I have noticed this... which is why when i remove the leaves tomite im going to not fully remove fan leaves just a large portion of the large fan blades and still leave a reall small portion of the leaf to see if that imediate grow back of leaves can be avoided.....just a theory im going t put in motion tonite.

Heres my opinion. An alive fan leaf is a producer of energy and a dead one is a blocker of light. However I know it is not that simple and with certain setups or strains it may be better to remove fan leaves for better light penetration/airflow.