F2s S1s BXs or IBL what does the community prefer?

[greenghost420]

so what do the people want! do we want a worked line up to an inbredline? do we want true F1s( ibl x ibl)? do we want a worked line up to ibl then selfed aka an S1 from ibl? or should i seek out dank clones and work some bx/bx2s? keep in mind i dont give a shit about fem of reg, this pertains to both for your preferrence, what kind of work did you want in your seeds?

 

[greenghost420]

choose all that apply

 

[OGEvilgenius]

Those crazy F1's aren't actually F1's.

 

[OGEvilgenius]

I'd like to see more true F1's and IBLs out there. I also have appreciation for the polyhybrid pollen chucking as well as you can find interesting - if totally unpredictable - plants in those lines. S1's can be good too if the right parent is chosen.

 

[greenghost420]

what would u class those f1s being sold everywhere

 

[OGEvilgenius]

Polyhybrid. F1's, as far as actual breeders are concerned, are always made with two IBLs.

 

[Jogro]

Yeah, the classification here is a bit muddled.

-All landraces are inbred lines, but not all inbred lines are landraces. The term landrace specifically refers to open pollinated lines acclimated to a particular geographic area over time. Most of these simply won't achieve their full potential indoors, or even outdoors outside their native area. IMO true landraces are a reasonable place to start breeding projects, but by themselves they're usually not an optimal choice for most personal growers.

-"True" F1s are what you get when you cross two inbred lines. While there are legitimate F1s out there, most modern "name" hybrids (eg the OGs, Diesel, etc) aren't really F1s. You could call them "polyhybrids" if you liked.

-True F2s (ie crosses between true F1s) are what give you the absolute max amount of pheno variation. In general, you do NOT want these, except as an intermediate step in breeding, because of the pheno variation.

I can't think of too many examples of "True" F2s on the market. As one possible example, if we assume that the parents of "Green Crack are both IBLs (which I think is likely), then "Green Crack S1" would be a sort of feminized F2.

-"Backcross" is a specific breeding technique, its not really a type of line or classification. While it can be useful for certain purposes, if you're using conventional breeding technique with selection starting with inbred male and female plants, you shouldn't really need to do backcrossing.

-"S1". . .this is mostly a "stunt" to commercialize famous name "clone only" lines into se-ed form, and IMO its pretty much the only reason to buy these. . .because you want a certain "clone only" line, but can't get the clone. That's OK. . .some of the S1s can be excellent. . .but some will be mediocre, poor, and many will throw off a large number of phenos across the full range. Depends on the parent.

 

[Pepe le skunk]

One time reeferman said most people who think they want IBL's really don't. Something to that effect. Most want hybrid vigor, uniform plants that don't out grow their space. Some phenotype differences can be good especially if hunting for a special plant. Jorge hit it on the head for poly hybrids being the norm. Too bad most are not uniform.

All I really want is more bud production from each plant. Too often people blame a strain when the blame is usually found in the container size, grow method the person is using. Just an example a strain a friend grows out produces the same one another friend grows by more than twice as much. It was the size pot, type of pot used, the veg time, quantity of light and the amount of food given the ones in pure coco that made the difference. The friend who had the biggest results used the smart pots that breath, in very large 10 or 15 gallon size, feed heavy in coco because coco has no ferts and the 1K bulbs above each plant that changed everything. He vegged for a solid month from clone or longer and upsized the container before flowering. Everytime I see this friends plants in flower I am speechless how huge and full of bud his plants are. Some buds are bigger than my leg. (I just came a little "feeling") Really has his stuff dailed in. Oh and I am the other friend. lol

From a breeding standpoint the IBL's have their place. So do bx'd plants. However F1's probably are some of the most consistant producers from a growing standpoint. Poly's are best for pheno hunting than using clones.

Hope that helps.

 

[greenghost420]

Just want to find out how the community feels and what is prefferred.

 

[booms111]

Greenghost I personally prefer 2 different females crossed together not selfed, call it whatever you want. I only prefer them so i dont have to waste space on males, plant count # is important around my area. Selfed S1s have not been good to me and have been poor reps of there mother. BX form would be my next pick,If worked right through pheno selection to achieve a certain goal.

Pepe your totally right on conditions/enviroment being the key factor. I see a plant hit 8oz then next guy with same clone only hit 4oz and its because of everything you mentioned

 

[greenghost420]

that fem x fem would be f1. thanks for chiming in, you input is valued!

 

[Jogro]

Just want to find out how the community feels and what is prefferred.

I think its fair to say that a large proportion of individuals growing don't understand or appreciate these genetic subtleties. Regardless, I think its more important to pick what works for YOU and your exact needs and circumstances than worry about what the "community" prefers.

IMO, what's "best" depends entirely on what you're individual goals and limitations are.

-How much experience do you have growing?
-Are you growing indoors or outdoors?
-If outdoors, are you in a geographic location where a landrace strain might be appropriate?
-Are you growing for yourself or others?
-Are you growing commercially?
-How many plants can you grow at once?
-Do you have the ability to source high end clone plants?
-Do you have the ability and desire to maintain "mother" plants, or keep "keeper" plants?, or are you growing from se-ed every single time?
-Do you have the ability and desire to do selections from many to identify high quality individual plants? The flip side of this question is, can you "afford" to take chances with plants that could be lousy or even just mediocre?

Without exploring every possibility here, I'll just comment on a few.

If you have the ability to start with select or "elite" clones, that can be a great choice. Those plants are guaranteed to be female, and most of the hard work in finding excellent individual genetics is done. In some cases, you may even be able to sample the buds before growing the plant! It doesn't really matter that these plants are "unstable" hybrids, because you're not breeding with them, nor growing siblings from a pack of se-eds. All you have to do is grow the thing to its full potential.

As a matter of practice, commercial breeders virtually never start with se-eds. They're either starting with cuts of "elite" clones, or at least cuts of excellent plants they've selected themselves (perhaps from se-eds). In general, the needs of commercial growers are a little different than small home growers, and strain selection is going to be different. (EG yield is a huge factor for commercial grows, it may not be a factor at all for small personal growers).

If you have the ability and desire to grow numbers and do some selection, then starting with S1s or polyhybrids can be fine. You may need to run through a number of plants to find a good one, but you can find really great and interesting plants this way.

Now, lets consider a small personal indoor grower with limited floor space and vertical height. This person can only grow maybe 1-3 plants at once, and doesn't want to maintain a "mother" plant. They lack the ability OR desire to try and grow out 4-6-10 plants from a strain and do selections to find a great "keeper". They also probably don't want anything that stretches too much, or takes more than 10-12 weeks to finish flowering.

So someone like this is generally going to want to avoid F2s, polyhybrid plants, and S1s. These just aren't consistent, and variable phenos and flowering types can mean a negative experience with bad individual plants, just by dumb luck. Most landraces are long flowering sativas, and those are out.

Someone like this is going to want either a landrace indica (which can work well indoors), or a good F1 hybrid, or an IBL bred for indoor growth. Lines that have been "worked" out to f4-f5s are probably fine too. These won't be entirely stable, but they should be "good enough".

 

[Jogro]

that fem x fem would be f1. thanks for chiming in, you input is valued!

Technically speaking, fem A x fem B "could" be an F1, if both A and B were members of different inbred lines.

If A and B were sibling plants, then this cross could be an F2, F3, etc, depending on generations away from inbred parents. Again, I think "Green Crack S1" (which is Green Crack x Green Crack) is probably actually a feminized F2, since I think "Green Crack" itself is probably a true F1.

If A and B were themselves hybrids of uncertain genetic background (as is often the case) then a true "F" number can't really be assigned and the offspring is probably best just called a "polyhybrid".

As an unrelated point, while consistency is good, the goal is really consistent quality. Having a pack of beans that makes perfectly consistent, but absolutely lousy plants isn't really helpful!

 

[OGEvilgenius]

It's a pretty good point Jogro raises about most of the community having no idea what any of these things actually are or what they mean. Take the advice from this poll with a grain of salt and try to offer a little of everything that interests you IMO.

Preservation is super important (open pollination of lines).

True F1's are important to those into production of high quality (feminized or non or both - feminized is a much bigger draw but you will get a lot of die hards with good regs so there are a lot of markets to consider and they operate and behave fairly differently).

IBL's are important to those looking for the exotic and for breeding as well as maintaining diversity in the line.

F2's are super interesting to those again looking for the exotic (but probably should be sold pretty damn cheap and with a warning label given the unpredictability)

Polyhybrids are also interesting for the same reasons - and I believe this is where a lot of the truly unique plants come from - unique but really difficult to reproduce.

There is going to be a market for clones in seed form as well in the not that distant future - although this is probably out of your league at this point. It's way out of mine currently although I think I might take some courses at the local University to see if I can up my game.

Also - this is more difficult and resource intensive - but I'd try to avoid 1:1 crosses. They are endemic to the cannabis seed market. But it's quite a bit better to have multiple moms and dads. This of course means you have to find multiple plants that are similar phenotypically. This helps avoid issues with inbreeding. You will statistically lower your chances of bad recessives (in an F1 or otherwise), with good selection of course. You will also avoid some of the vigor loss if you're working a line down as well.

I too plan to do some breeding and pollen chucking. My goal was to have my own house sometime next year. I was going to go all out in my efforts to setup a large breeding room so that I can do continual seed runs - mostly just preservation to start. With those runs I will do selection for future parents for my own varieties. The dream is to create something like Skunk #1 (for me at least). Something that leaves a bit of a legacy. I also plan on doing some pollen chucking as well with some elite lines that I have access to. I recently had some Raspberry Kush which was quite nice, but I'm also 100% sure it's simply a Romulan (the cut not from seed) x OG Kush and probably super easy to reproduce.

I also plan to see if I can recreate some old classics. First one on my mind being NLxHaze but this is the kind of project that would take a back seat to anything else. I feel like I have found two good sources of both these lines to do some experimenting with - Shanti only used 2 parents for his mix and from what i experienced the results from the line are pretty inconsistent - perhaps I can work it better to cough up some more desirable phenotypes more frequently - don't get me wrong though it was quite nice smoke and I'm not hating on his work I would love to hunt through a few packs as you'd likely find something quite special.

Maybe 10-15 years down the road (less if things go well and never if things go bad) I will build my own small lab to do some of the work I'd like to do. Tissue culture, genetic testing, LCG/GCG and the duplication of allele halves (and splitting them as well).



Don't mean to hijack with my own plans, I respect what you plan on doing here. And I totally understand where you're coming from.

 

[greenghost420]

nice goals! im interested in creating ibls and f1s from them. i want to make fems and regs. iv decided to create my own clone onlys and work those into lines if possible.

 

[Jogro]

IBL's are important to those looking for the exotic and for breeding as well as maintaining diversity in the line.

You probably mean "landraces" here. IBLs just mean anything that's been inbred until its genetically homogeneous. . .that doesn't necessarily make it "good", let alone exotic or diverse.

F2's are super interesting to those again looking for the exotic (but probably should be sold pretty damn cheap and with a warning label given the unpredictability)

IMO, F2s are basically "pollen chucks". They're just an early step in a breeding process, no more. IMO whether or not anyone is selling them, nobody should be paying money for true F2s, at least not to grow them.

There is going to be a market for clones in seed form as well in the not that distant future

I don't think so.

While it *might* be technically possible to create these right now so far as I know, it would require the facilities of a major research lab with quite a bit of technical expertise to do it. Despite the high tech name, this isn't something that "DNA genetics" (for example) is going to be able to cook up in their basement, and the cost and labor involved here would mean that doing this isn't even remotely close to economically feasible for large scale production.

The cost, expertise, and physical facilities/equipment necessary to do this sort of thing mean that it probably couldn't be done outside of a full legalization scenario. But under that sort of legal regimen, there would be no need to do it. . .people could just pass around cheap, easy to create ORDINARY clones.

As a relevant side issue, with proper conventional breeding techniques its possible to create stable and nearly genetically uniform strains in ceed form right now. . .they're called "inbred lines".

- although this is probably out of your league at this point. It's way out of mine currently although I think I might take some courses at the local University to see if I can up my game.

Well, no matter how many courses you take, I don't think you're going to be able to penetrate the world of science fiction, or defeat the laws of economics. Cloning plants the conventional way with cuttings is pretty straightforward. Cloning them the way you describe. . .now you're talking manipulation of gametes. . .this is getting in the realm of GMO/"playing god" type stuff.

Also - this is more difficult and resource intensive - but I'd try to avoid 1:1 crosses. They are endemic to the cannabis seed market. But it's quite a bit better to have multiple moms and dads. This of course means you have to find multiple plants that are similar phenotypically. This helps avoid issues with inbreeding. You will statistically lower your chances of bad recessives (in an F1 or otherwise), with good selection of course. You will also avoid some of the vigor loss if you're working a line down as well.

Well, here I'm in complete agreement. If you can work with populations instead of individuals in your breeding, you're have more vigorous results.

I think in practice, the vast majority of "strains" on the market ARE created from a small number of parents "bottlnecked" down, as it were. The real issue is that the way the legal situation is, in most of the world its simply not possible to do old school open-pollenization type selective breeding with large (and by that I mean 1000+ plant) pools anymore.

The dream is to create something like Skunk #1 (for me at least).

IIRC, the original Skunk #1 was created, as above, using large scale outdoor open pollenization and selections from hundreds or thousands of plants. As a practical matter, it probably couldn't have been done indoors, and it would be much harder to do it today than 40 years ago. .

I think a reasonable project might be to create a sort of modern Skunk #1, specifically, a high potency line of excellent scent/flavor, pest and disease resistant, acclimated to growth through most of the USA, that finishes early enough to be grown outdoors to completion in most of the continental USA. Work on three variants, each with different cannabinoid profiles, and you'll have something pretty good.

Maybe 10-15 years down the road (less if things go well and never if things go bad) I will build my own small lab to do some of the work I'd like to do. Tissue culture, genetic testing, LCG/GCG and the duplication of allele halves (and splitting them as well).

That's an expensive "hobby". If you're really serious about this, its almost mandatory to start the process by getting a graduate degree in molecular biology (if not a PhD), and some serious bench time in. So far as I know, the techniques you're talking about can't be learned from "youtube" videoes, and there is quite a bit of theoretical background you need to know for this sort of thing.

 

[Jogro]

im interested in creating ibls and f1s from them.

Creating an IBL is trivially easy (though it takes multiple successive generations, and therefore a long time). . .making a QUALITY one is hard, and that's where all the trick/work is.

Maybe instead of just thinking about making lines, you should concentrate on WHAT KIND of lines you want to make, and why. What do you want to make that is both worthwhile AND different than what's already in the marketplace?

Note that if you make your IBL correctly, and have a bit of luck, it will contain all the traits you like and maybe you won't need to make F1s from them!

i want to make fems and regs.

If you love conventional breeding so much that you want to make your own IBLs why would you need feminized beans? I mean if you're capable of growing out the dozens to hundreds of plants necessary to do the selection to create an IBL, then I don't think regular beans or culling males should pose an issue for you.

Fems have their benefits for certain growers, but you probably shouldn't really need them here.

iv decided to create my own clone onlys and work those into lines if possible.

Not sure I understand.

While any mutt plant in your garden could technically be a "clone only" in the sense that nobody has se-eds that could replicate it, and therefore its "clone only" that's usually not how the term is used. The term "clone only" usually implies that the genetics in question have wide circulation. . .ie that OTHER people want this clone and that it gets passed around between growers based on its traits and quality.

Just coming up with ONE good line like that that lots of other growers want to grow is pretty impressive all by itself. . .even if it isn't really the goal of conventional breeding. If you did manage to come up with something like this, from the perspective of many modern "breeders" you'd be "done".

If the goal is more conventional. . .that is, you're looking to create stable (ie inbred) or nearly stable lines, then there is no real need for an intermediate "clone only" step.

 

[greenghost420]

i didnt really make myself clear. i want to offer my creations to the public, and offer them in regs and fems. me personally want regs but some strains are only fems or s1. breeder in training wheels over here

 

[Pepe le skunk]

One long term goal I have is finding the elusive old skool Pennsylvania Skunk Bud ie.. Road kill Skunk seed or clone. Then producing many seeds of it so everyone could enjoy the real deal old skool Road Kill Skunk. It is not skunk #1 and was around before the seed banks had skunk #1. It is an Afghan skunk indica and anyone who ever tried it or smelled it would want it. One time many years ago outdoors it turned into a 8 foot wide bush but was only 5 ft tall. More like a hedge. Would be in very high demand. Rumor has it to still be around.

 

[May11th]

I like buying seeds and get what I bought, I find that many seed banks seem to throw in random seeds, if I buy high dollar seeds I want good shit, so fuck you greenhouse and barneys, we need more breeders out there that can be trusted, too many just slapping names on junk.