• Here is a link to the full explanation: https://rollitup.org/t/welcome-back-did-you-try-turning-it-off-and-on-again.1104810/

Expert Growers Only !!!

cannatari

Well-Known Member
pH flucuation is NOT a good thing. pH stability, EC stability and good fertilizer rati0s is a good idea. Try using a pH controoler and EC controller on a recirculating inert hydro grow. Next best thing to drain to waste. pH fluctuation a good thing. Now that is funny.
I gotta agree with fatman, the benefits of ph fluctuation is an out-dated concept. I have heard growers endorse it but have never seen a conclusive experiment. There is 1 ph that works best and if you are benefiting from fluctuations it's because you're at the optimum ph for a period of time within the fluctuation. I would like to see an experiment that concludes this argument either way.
 
I have to disagree.

I think what snutter meant was a little PH fluctuation is good for the plants. Some ingrediants are absorbed easily on the lower end 5.5 while others are more easily absorbed on the higher end 6.0. When I first started hydro I was constantly adjusting the ph to 5.8 but my plants didnt seem to grow that much. Then I stopped adjusting and watched my ph fluctuate a bit and boom they sky rocketed. Since then I have let my Ph fluctuate a little as long as its in range my plants are happy.
 

fatman7574

New Member
I have to disagree.

I think what snutter meant was a little PH fluctuation is good for the plants. Some ingrediants are absorbed easily on the lower end 5.5 while others are more easily absorbed on the higher end 6.0. When I first started hydro I was constantly adjusting the ph to 5.8 but my plants didnt seem to grow that much. Then I stopped adjusting and watched my ph fluctuate a bit and boom they sky rocketed. Since then I have let my Ph fluctuate a little as long as its in range my plants are happy.
Wow, a miracle grow.

Try a better nutrient formulation or use a better nutrient program and quit messing with pH optimal ranges. Correct the nutrient problem don't fudge the pH range flucuations and the end results will be better. There is just no basis for a quality formulated and still balanced nutrient formulation to perform better outside the optimal 5.6 to 5.8 pH range. Quality inert hydroponics nutrient solutions are formulated based upon a pH of 5.6 to 5.8 Of course with the mass of unnecessary supplements and amendments and infrequent nutrient reservoir change outs common to a lot of growers some problems can arise. Better nutrient management is the better naanswer to that problem though not pH flucuations outside of the optimal design range.
 

snutter

Well-Known Member
I don't want to completely disagree with you fatman, because I respect your opinions and how well you grow. But I'm going to have to... I guess what I was trying to say is that it's ok for pH to fluctuate, and in doing so some nutrients "may" and actually "should" be better absorbed. Though the chart I am placing in this reply shows 5.5 as the low end of the range, I still think that 5.3 to 5.8 is optimum. But that's my opinion. If you're able to hit a pH of 5.5 and have it stay there ALWAYS, well then you're a better grower then I. My pH NEVER stays completely solid (nor should it. and nor would I want it to). But, I am always able to keep it between 5.3 and 5.8 (my personal optimum values where I see my plants do their best). According to the chart I've placed here, certain nutes like certain pH levels. My assumption is that when the pH level hits an exact optimal number for each different type of nutrient (when fluctuating), it will be better absorbed by the plant. Having said that, as long as you're within the correct ranges, all essential nutrients will always be absorbed by the plant. But, each different type of nutrient definitely likes a different pH level for "perfect" absorption (e.g. according to the chart for hydro, phosphorous starts best absorption at 5.8, so there for when my pH level is lower than that, my plants aren't getting the optimum amount of P they want. In this case, I don't mind that my pH level will swing higher than the 5.3 that i generally set it at when I do a nute change)... To be completely honest, my pH seems to sit at 5.5 more often than not. But it definitely swings higher and lower from day to day, and to me that's a good thing!




And besides, it's NOT possible to actually keep your pH level at one set number at all times! In fact, when your plants are absorbing nutes, the pH level MUST change. If your pH level is constant day to day, then your plants are not absorbing some of the nutrients available to them...

eh, but what do I know??? ;)

-S

PS
After studying this chart a bit more, I think that I will start letting my pH fluctuate to as high as 6.0. It looks to me that 5.3 to 6.0 is optimum. Again, that's my personal opinion....But that's what the graph seems to show. :)

pH flucuation is NOT a good thing. pH stability, EC stability and good fertilizer rati0s is a good idea. Try using a pH controoler and EC controller on a recirculating inert hydro grow. Next best thing to drain to waste. pH fluctuation a good thing. Now that is funny.
 

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Damn Snutter,

You beat me to this chart. I was looking all over the place for it. Yeah as you can see 5.8 sort of a middle ground for me. I like to fluctuate from 6.1 down to about 5.5 My plants seem to like it very much. On my first grow I PHed the shit out of my plants and they were stunted. They didnt prosper as much when I lightened up on the PHing a bit. When I do flower I do keep my Ph closer to the 6.o range.

Fatman I respect you as well. I am sure you have found a system that is probably perfect for you. Why knock it if it works eh?

Cannatari has stated that Ph fluctuation is an outdated concept...Guess I am a little old school.

Now I am not saying that this will work for everyone, Just noticed what my plants in my grow room seem to like.

Happy growing!
 

snutter

Well-Known Member
Well, you beat me to saying that during flower you are going to keep your pH closer to 6.0. It's funny you mention that because I was sitting here thinking the EXACT same thing, but not sure if I should edit my last post or say it in a new one. heheh.

There's many ways for us to all reach the same goal...Great smoke! To each their own, I say. If someone has a method that works for them that's different than my method, more power to them I say. I've found what works well for me, as have you, as has fatman, etc... And that's a cool thing. In fact, I think it's important for us to all have differing ideas on certain aspects of growing. This way when some one reads these posts, they have to logically decide what they think is correct (and possibly do more reading/studying on their own), which in turn can only help their own personal growing culture. I certainly believe that reading what you, or fatman, or other people here have to say has most definitely helped strengthen my personal growing culture....and I'm thankful for that!

:weed:

Peace to y'all!!!

-S

Damn Snutter,

You beat me to this chart. I was looking all over the place for it. Yeah as you can see 5.8 sort of a middle ground for me. I like to fluctuate from 6.1 down to about 5.5 My plants seem to like it very much. On my first grow I PHed the shit out of my plants and they were stunted. They didnt prosper as much when I lightened up on the PHing a bit. When I do flower I do keep my Ph closer to the 6.o range.

Fatman I respect you as well. I am sure you have found a system that is probably perfect for you. Why knock it if it works eh?

Cannatari has stated that Ph fluctuation is an outdated concept...Guess I am a little old school.

Now I am not saying that this will work for everyone, Just noticed what my plants in my grow room seem to like.

Happy growing!
 

fatman7574

New Member
I don't want to completely disagree with you fatman, because I respect your opinions and how well you grow. But I'm going to have to... I guess what I was trying to say is that it's ok for pH to fluctuate, and in doing so some nutrients "may" and actually "should" be better absorbed. Though the chart I am placing in this reply shows 5.5 as the low end of the range, I still think that 5.3 to 5.8 is optimum. But that's my opinion. If you're able to hit a pH of 5.5 and have it stay there ALWAYS, well then you're a better grower then I. My pH NEVER stays completely solid (nor should it. and nor would I want it to). But, I am always able to keep it between 5.3 and 5.8 (my personal optimum values where I see my plants do their best). According to the chart I've placed here, certain nutes like certain pH levels. My assumption is that when the pH level hits an exact optimal number for each different type of nutrient (when fluctuating), it will be better absorbed by the plant. Having said that, as long as you're within the correct ranges, all essential nutrients will always be absorbed by the plant. But, each different type of nutrient definitely likes a different pH level for "perfect" absorption (e.g. according to the chart for hydro, phosphorous starts best absorption at 5.8, so there for when my pH level is lower than that, my plants aren't getting the optimum amount of P they want. In this case, I don't mind that my pH level will swing higher than the 5.3 that i generally set it at when I do a nute change)... To be completely honest, my pH seems to sit at 5.5 more often than not. But it definitely swings higher and lower from day to day, and to me that's a good thing!




And besides, it's NOT possible to actually keep your pH level at one set number at all times! Not true! It is very easy to keep the pH within an optimal range of 5.6 to 5.8. if you have a problem with doing so by just adjusting just once a day at approximattelty the same time of day every day, then adjust twice a day or simply automate it to allow a swing in those ranges. If adjustements are needed once per day or twent or 100 times a day a controller can handle that with ease. With a grow of say 100 one foot SOG plants the stability of the EC and the pH provided by a couple controllers an a couple pinch valve from a a few rersiors of Ph up, pH down and some fertilzer concenrtae plus an auto watertop off sytems as simple as a gravity fed float will easily be recouped with value of the increased yield and quailty of just one grow if buying your equipment on eBay or LabX.
say In fact, when your plants are absorbing nutes, the pH level MUST change. Not necessarily but quiteoften as fomulations are c based for average grower needs not the specific needs of the individual. If your pH level is constant day to day, then your plants are not absorbing some of the nutrients available to them... But as you just said the pH is not constant. They are allowed to constantly swing within the optimal range. The pH goes up nad down constantly all day and to a lesser extent at night. So if as desired the pH is kept within the optimal range then the chance of the roots to have the majority of the nutrients vailable for the majortity of time will happen if the pH stays in the opimal range. It is like rolling the dice. There is a proprotionality formula that shows the odds of say for example: if you roll 6 dice 100 times how often you will likely come up with a 3, 4 and a 5 with six rolls of the six dice. The same math (statistics) formula shows 5.6 to 5.8 to provide the best odds that the the three controlling nutrients will most often be available. Or there are other statistical ways of showing probability methods odf statistacal analyis that will provide basically the same answer.

Ie with a pH controller you set your high at a pH of 5.8 and a low of a pH of 5.6. You then set just how far outside that range is exceptable such as 0.01. The controller will then if the pH reachs 5.81 will lower the ph to only 5.79. Then if the on on its own swings back and forth betwwen 5.59 and 5.81 it will do nothing. However if the pH drops to 5.59 it wil raise the pH to 5.61.

eh, but what do I know??? ;)

-S

PS
After studying this chart a bit more, I think that I will start letting my pH fluctuate to as high as 6.0. It looks to me that 5.3 to 6.0 is optimum. Again, that's my personal opinion....But that's what the graph seems to show. Poor interpretaion. :)

Dude look at the chart for hydroponics. Every nutrient is very nearly always available at exactly the optimal range of 5.6 to 5.8 by the chart you yourself have posted. Go outside that range and anywhere from one to three nutrients is unavailable. This imply means for optimal ph you try to h keep the pH at 5.7 and the alowable swing is 0.1 in either do irection. A swing ofthi six ze is common through out every day. There is no gain when you start swinging further in either direction as you gain nothing as there is no need to have the optimum for specifis nutrients to be higher tan others. In the optimal range all nutrients are avilable sufficiently in a goof nutrient formulation. IE formulations are absed upomn how well ecah nutrient is avilable in thepH range of5.6 to 5.8. That is i the industry standerd in nutrient manfactu ring fot hydroponics bi oth by manfacturers and in reserach and acdememics. If you g have well fourmoulated nutrient solution there will be more than enough of every nutrient needed without going outside of the 5.6 to 5.8 optimal range. There is no gain to having more than enough avilability. In reality such increased availability usually causes more problems rather than helping as to much avilability can cause t antagonizm problems that are typically not seen if you stay in the optimum range with well formulated nytrients. All that will with the braoder swings is you will have increased availiblty of something that you don't need increased avilibilty of at the cost of a fairly long term total non availability of anywhere from one to two nutrients. There is no gain in this. Period.

In your theorey it is better to get a chance at a whooping dose of somehing every once in a while when the whooping dose should never be need at the cost of making needed nutriem nts totallu unavailablefor a larger period of time. That just makes no sense.

If you are exeriencing a benefit by swings out side the optimal range of 5.6 to 5.8 then it is due to use of nutrient formulation that is not good for your growing system or maybe just too low or high an EC level of a ell fot rmulated system.

Obviously mj nanafacy turers do not make their forn mulations ideal for every ones needs, as they simply try to supply a godforn mulation nor the vaerage grower. who knows how they determine waht the average growers need asre with d so many differents y sytems and different strains and gorowing parameters. I gave up on commercially avialble nutrients over 20 years ago for my own systems.
As for keeping the pH within that reange> If you grow with a recurculation ssytem and you want best results expect to need to purchase a pH controller and an EC controller.

No, I do not agre with your logic or even your interpretation of the chart you your self has just posted. I do not believe you are right and the chart and the vast majority of private and academic researchers, scientistist, nutrient manac facturers, commercial growers and experienced hydropinc mj go rowers manfacturers and growers are wromng based upon you r simple observation particular to your instro uments, system , srt train and the nutrients you use and yourindividual growing paramters. For an example a poor quality pH probe or meter inproperly calibrated provide readings of little use. A nutrient formulation with much ammonium in it used with a growing su ystem with low temperatures, or low intensity lighting or side lighting or refective lighting of the plants will tend to lawys have a lower pH as amonium uptake causse the roots to relaese Hydrogen protons thereby leading to alow pH. In the p oppostee respect high nitrate uptake cause a rise in pH. Nutrient formulations are prepared with the hpoes of trying to created balances. Yiou say your system seems to operate normally at 5.5. I gurantee you I could change that very easily with one or two physical changes to your system or through one or tow changes to your typically used nutrient formulation.

Regradleess of your experiences the vast mah jort ty of mj growers will cahive the vest results by simply attempting to keep the pH range within 5.6 to 5.8. Thaere are 30 year of testing and reserch that that show this to be a fact.
 

snutter

Well-Known Member
Fatman, it would be appreciated by me and probably many other people if you would proof read your post, before posting. I'm not trying to talk shit. What I mean is that I take seriously what you have to say. But some of what you write is very hard to make sense of because the words run together, or sentences just don't seem to make sense. Spell check would be a huge help as well.. Just a suggestion, not trying to be a dick...

I'll keep this short.

I do have a well formulated nutrient solution. I do NOT think it's better to get a whooping dose of something every once in a while. I want my plants to be able to get all available nutrients they need at all times, and believe I achieve this with my growing technique/culture. I do not grow with a recirculation system. I grow DWC hydro. I change nutes once every 2 weeks. I am completely convinced that I am not wrong and that 5.3 to 6.0 is a fine range for my growing techniques. I will put one of my grows up against any one of your grows any day of the week... Just say when. :-)

You seem to like to argue for the sake of arguing. You can't even concede one point. I've determined that you are one of those "I am right and you are wrong, PERIOD! Do as I say, there is no room for debate." type of people. And that's fine. I just don't want to discuss this topic with you any longer...

I'm comfortable with my growing culture. I believe that other people here can read what has been discussed and decide from themselves what is right and what is wrong, and how they will assimilate any of the ideas/information we've discussed in to their own growing culture without us beating this dead horse any longer...

-S

PS

A picture is worth a thousand words. Look at the trichome production. AND, this cola hasn't even filled in with true bud mass at this stage. This is only half way through flowering (week 4 or 5)... But then again, what do I know about growing??? From your replies, obviously not as much as you... But, I digress...



Dude look at the chart for hydroponics. Every nutrient is very nearly always available at exactly the optimal range of 5.6 to 5.8 by the chart you yourself have posted. Go outside that range and anywhere from one to three nutrients is unavailable. This imply means for optimal ph you try to h keep the pH at 5.7 and the alowable swing is 0.1 in either do irection. A swing ofthi six ze is common through out every day. There is no gain when you start swinging further in either direction as you gain nothing as there is no need to have the optimum for specifis nutrients to be higher tan others. In the optimal range all nutrients are avilable sufficiently in a goof nutrient formulation. IE formulations are absed upomn how well ecah nutrient is avilable in thepH range of5.6 to 5.8. That is i the industry standerd in nutrient manfactu ring fot hydroponics bi oth by manfacturers and in reserach and acdememics. If you g have well fourmoulated nutrient solution there will be more than enough of every nutrient needed without going outside of the 5.6 to 5.8 optimal range. There is no gain to having more than enough avilability. In reality such increased availability usually causes more problems rather than helping as to much avilability can cause t antagonizm problems that are typically not seen if you stay in the optimum range with well formulated nytrients. All that will with the braoder swings is you will have increased availiblty of something that you don't need increased avilibilty of at the cost of a fairly long term total non availability of anywhere from one to two nutrients. There is no gain in this. Period.

In your theorey it is better to get a chance at a whooping dose of somehing every once in a while when the whooping dose should never be need at the cost of making needed nutriem nts totallu unavailablefor a larger period of time. That just makes no sense.

If you are exeriencing a benefit by swings out side the optimal range of 5.6 to 5.8 then it is due to use of nutrient formulation that is not good for your growing system or maybe just too low or high an EC level of a ell fot rmulated system.

Obviously mj nanafacy turers do not make their forn mulations ideal for every ones needs, as they simply try to supply a godforn mulation nor the vaerage grower. who knows how they determine waht the average growers need asre with d so many differents y sytems and different strains and gorowing parameters. I gave up on commercially avialble nutrients over 20 years ago for my own systems.
As for keeping the pH within that reange> If you grow with a recurculation ssytem and you want best results expect to need to purchase a pH controller and an EC controller.

No, I do not agre with your logic or even your interpretation of the chart you your self has just posted. I do not believe you are right and the chart and the vast majority of private and academic researchers, scientistist, nutrient manac facturers, commercial growers and experienced hydropinc mj go rowers manfacturers and growers are wromng based upon you r simple observation particular to your instro uments, system , srt train and the nutrients you use and yourindividual growing paramters. For an example a poor quality pH probe or meter inproperly calibrated provide readings of little use. A nutrient formulation with much ammonium in it used with a growing su ystem with low temperatures, or low intensity lighting or side lighting or refective lighting of the plants will tend to lawys have a lower pH as amonium uptake causse the roots to relaese Hydrogen protons thereby leading to alow pH. In the p oppostee respect high nitrate uptake cause a rise in pH. Nutrient formulations are prepared with the hpoes of trying to created balances. Yiou say your system seems to operate normally at 5.5. I gurantee you I could change that very easily with one or two physical changes to your system or through one or tow changes to your typically used nutrient formulation.

Regradleess of your experiences the vast mah jort ty of mj growers will cahive the vest results by simply attempting to keep the pH range within 5.6 to 5.8. Thaere are 30 year of testing and reserch that that show this to be a fact.
 

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snutter

Well-Known Member
Ok, well thank you for pointing out how stupid I am and how smart you are, Fatman.

For the record I never told anyone that they must follow a pH range of 5.3 to 6.0. I repeatedly said that this is where my plants seem to do their best. I placed a chart here showing that inside of those ranges, nutrients will be absorbed, and should do well.

However.... To all people:

FATMAN IS THE MASTER OF ALL GROWS. HE KNOWS EVERYTHING. WHAT EVER YOU MIGHT "THINK" YOU KNOW, OR HAVE "LEARNED" THROUGH TRIAL AND ERROR DURING YOUR GROWS, YOU ARE WRONG. YOU MUST ALL KEEP YOUR pH LEVELS AT 5.6 TO 5.8, BECAUSE MASTER FATMAN SAYS SO. NO MATTER WHAT YOU'VE LEARNED THAT MAY BE CONTRARY TO THAT, IT IS WRONG...

There, that should clear things up.

Thank you Fatman for showing us the error of our growing ways.

-Snutter

PS:

when I talk about people improving their growing "culture" I am speaking to this definition of the word:

Culture:

8.the act or practice of cultivating the soil; tillage.

9.the raising of plants or animals, esp. with a view to their improvement.

10.the product or growth resulting from such cultivation.

–verb (used with object)11.to subject to culture; cultivate.

12.Biology. a.to grow (microorganisms, tissues, etc.) in or on a controlled or defined medium.

b.to introduce (living material) into a culture medium.

PPS:

Here's a pretty bud I grew with an incorrectly fluctuating pH level of 5.3 to 5.8:

 

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Wow and wow!

Seems some folks takes things a little to personal. I thought this was a place where folks could share ideas and opinions to help forward the progress of advancing MJ cultivation. Guess I was wrong , didn't realize that everything was set in stone. SO this will be my last post in this thread since we seem to have hijacked it. (laughs)

Fatman you have stated that this so called "range" (was 5.6 to 5.8 has changed from 5.5 to 5.8) is optimal. You have declared this as fact with no back up or support. You have stated years or research and yet havent named a source. I have researched tons of articles, mags, and books and they all seem top vary on whats "optimal". I could just pick out three and say these are "facts". Just like the government has stated that MJ is bad for you, that was a "fact" for a very long time. That is why I beleive my own eyes over other people's "facts".

One other thing has tickled my funny bone and that is your optimal range. In this case the range is your fluctuation. Maybe not as wide as my fluctuation, but it is still a fluctuation. So you argue that fluctuations is not good but this "range" is? Seems to me both are the same thing in this case. I dont like having a fluctuation as wide as snutter (I like mine from 5.5 to 6.1). Maybe it is not optimal for the MAJORITY of the population, but Ill be damned if it doesnt make my plants happy.

Each to thier own!

Nothing but respect for all
 

homebrewer

Well-Known Member
Fatman - What are you smoking dude? Seriously, post a picture of it because you really need to back up the 10,000 words that you've written on this thread.
 

sixstring2112

Well-Known Member
you wanted experts you got em. not me but funny read. my hydro likes it right between 5.8 and 6.2 because thats where my shitty chemicals put it.the only thing easy about hydro over soil is if you have a problem your plant will respond to it instantly if you correct it. they both have pros & cons but if you can't grow in soil you are more than likely going to have more grief in hydro.If you go hydro do yourself a favor and get some good meters for ph, ec, tds and use GOOD water, It's more fun to watch hydro grow because of the speed of things for sure but i would not dream of leaving my girls alone for more than 24-36 hours.As far as materials, 1- 5 gallon bucket 1- 20 dollar air pump with air stone 1 netpot for your lid some hydroton rocks and your off and running, get that bitch some bubbles and sit back. I would do 1 plant like this until you get a feel for it and if you like it then you can diy anything you want. Use the pump for a larger res or a tote. But i think for beginers 1- 5 gal dwc is a easy way to get into hydro.
 

Handson

Active Member
I'm a soil man, however...

My mate did this with cheap wood, pond liner, 2 x 600 watt hps, 1 x 1000 watt hps, a fish pump, carbon filter, 3 fans, lots of rockwool, lots of nutrients, veg nutes, ph, flowring nutes, and a lot of hard work LOL Oh and love :)

All these can be obtained from a good hydro shop. (except the plants and the wood LOL)

Now he uses an IWS lol
 

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Handson

Active Member
You know what though, you can have all this advice and statistical data, but nothing beats trying it for yourself and finding your best method that suits you personally. I'm unorthodox to say the least, but I've learnt to grow buds and passed my knowledge on, so I'm happy. You can tell people ways and they'll never stick to it LOL, I taught 5 people the basics and now they all have their own styles that produce different results.
 

homebrewer

Well-Known Member
High quality input produces both high quality and high quanitity output. I choose to "SETTLE" for no less. You can settle for what ever you so shoose. However there are plenty of viewers who wish to know how to grow the highest yiellds of the best quality most efficiently and consistently. I provide information with that in mind.

Good day.
How about you quit typing and post some pictures. Your opinions mean jack and sh*t without some quality to back up your ramblings.
 

homebrewer

Well-Known Member
Anbody that has any time on this forum or any other forum knows I don't post photos of grows, or grow rooms Dude. If you can not just see the logic and facts I post am\nd learn from that you are a waste of my time and I could care lees what you think or fell child. If you need so badly to see pictures I suggest you put my name on your ignore list as I could care less if you need photos. I suggest the menatally and emotionally impaired that need photos buy more coloring books and get the picture problem out of their lives. usually such childishness and silly nneds are out grown by the end of garde school child.

Good day child.
You're like the guy who talks sh*t at a bar and can't back up his words. More conveniently, you're one of the many guys on the interwebs who talks a huge game, yet has no evidence to back up your statements.

Do us all a favor, take an English class and learn how to spell.
 
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