eCONOMIC THEORY

Carthoris said:

I would be surprised if once we reach the level where we can make matrix type worlds in computers that people can inhabit that government retirement isn't that and that they don't offer free make believe worlds to people who are criminal, insane, poor, ect.

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are you related to red1966?

OGEvilgenius said:

This would not be a good idea IMO. You would be creating many barriers to trade. Guy wants food. Has skills to trade. No one needs his skills. Guy has food, but no one has the skills he needs in return.

I think you can start to see the issue.

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Or you can use something that is small, doesn't lose its value, and is hard to manipulate and forge... like.. ah... I am sure there is something that qualifies.. uh.. gold maybe? silver? Paper money would work but the government would eventually decide it should print more for the greater good. Free market money would work decently.

theloadeddragon said:

"no one needs his skills" so he is unemployed.... and therefore makes no money to support himself?

Change the policies of trade Business and trade would still exist, and capitalism as well... just not in the current method of function (or dysfunction in our current system)

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So a big work camp where everyone shows up and does whatever job is assigned to them for their portion or they starve? Isn't that what we have now except you get to pick your job?

UncleBuck said:

yet you said the blacks should go buy land somewhere else if they didn't like sitting on the back of the bus? can't have it both ways, clawfoot.

you're funny.

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The government didn't own the bus. Please remember the companies changed to allow black people to sit wherever they want, the gubment is the people who mandated segregation - not the free market. I can have it both ways. Private segregation - ok. Government segregation - not ok. The same laws apply to everyone whether they are black, yellow, red, brown, pink, white, whatever.

Carthoris said:

Voluntary wealth redistribution(capitalism)

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Carthoris said:

Voluntary wealth redistribution(capitalism)

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cannabineer said:

The valuation of work is not inherent however. Serfs and slaves are the obvious counterexample. cn

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the value of work is inherent in the work being done alone, nothing outside of that need be added for the inherent value of a task being performed or completed to be established. serfs = middle class, slaves =lower class...thats as things are now... value of work is currently regulated by federal and state minimum wages, I am not apposed to this and neither is the system that I would propose.

Carthoris said:

Voluntary wealth redistribution(capitalism)

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theloadeddragon said:

the value of work is inherent in the work being done alone, nothing outside of that need be added for the inherent value of a task being performed or completed to be established. serfs = middle class, slaves =lower class...thats as things are now... value of work is currently regulated by federal and state minimum wages, I am not apposed to this and neither is the system that I would propose.

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Exactly what would the change be?

Carthoris said:

I would be surprised if once we reach the level where we can make matrix type worlds in computers that people can inhabit that government retirement isn't that and that they don't offer free make believe worlds to people who are criminal, insane, poor, ect.

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I suspect Matrix-type total VR is a long long way away. We cannot even ascertain scientifically that the mind, the self, is real. We cannot at this time make a program-on-hardware that can effectively mimic a creature's mental processes ... only behaviors. cn

Carthoris said:

Voluntary wealth redistribution(capitalism)

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Carthoris said:

The government didn't own the bus. Please remember the companies changed to allow black people to sit wherever they want, the gubment is the people who mandated segregation - not the free market. I can have it both ways. Private segregation - ok. Government segregation - not ok. The same laws apply to everyone whether they are black, yellow, red, brown, pink, white, whatever.

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it was the montgomery PUBLIC transportation system, stupid. and you said if they didn't like what was happening on the PUBLIC transportation system, they could just go settle the frontier at their own risk of death and at their own expense.

and it took the FEDERAL government to fix the problem, not the free market. businesses survived just fine disallowing blacks before the FEDERAL government ended all that.

lern 2 history, clawfoot.

Carthoris said:

In other words "Fuck Yo 401k, nigga." (jumping on your stocks)

Businesses aren't even owned by some magical ruling class. They are publicly traded companies and largely owned by a huge number of normal people through 401k and stock. Your ideas are more about rage against our magical corporate owners than they are about anything with a point. Still going through your teenage years I would guess.

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i think the angry red anarchist symbol gives the game away,though his use of gramma suggests university student,past or present!
THE RED TERROR!!! LOL!!

Carthoris said:

Voluntary wealth redistribution(capitalism)

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Carthoris said:

So a big work camp where everyone shows up and does whatever job is assigned to them for their portion or they starve? Isn't that what we have now except you get to pick your job?

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Assume..... making an Ass outta you, and trying to make an ass outta me... Please dont add suppositions to an idea that hasnt truly been expressed. No one said anything about job assignment... but now that you mention it, that could work and you could still kind of pick your job... more or less the same as we "pick" our jobs now (as you put it). By picking you mean.... picking out the jobs you want, and not getting them because the work is unavailable or because you are not up to the job as well as competing job seekers.


At some point I will have to make a different thread that explains what Im talking about... rather than just rebutting the assumptions of many about an ambiguous statement I made referring to a Huge shift.

Carthoris said:

Voluntary wealth redistribution(capitalism)

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Carthoris said:

Voluntary wealth redistribution(capitalism)

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theloadeddragon said:

hmmmm... the amount of work it would take to draw up the statistics, and put all this together would be immense... but gotta do it sometime I suppose.

Im not just throwing some baseless crack-up idea out there. I think what I have come up with is definitely doable and beneficial to the way our world views economics, and crucial in terms of how the world views economics in relation to ecology and our natural ecosystem. have to figure out how to put it into a brief presentation.... the thing is up front and admittedly- there are a great many issues with this idea to which I dont have an immediate answer and I am glad I dont, the point of the system itself is to allow society to Function and Thrive, many solutions would need to be devised and created by the constituents of the system itself (the very definition of self governance as it was originally intended no?). The essence of the idea is to first change who has control of the money supply. It should be the congress's duty to control and regulate the money supply.

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My recurrent point is that any such system needs to be stable, and in order for it to be thus, it needs to align with human nature and behavior. The only way I see to do that is to subject it to hostile review by opposing/opposed societies, and have it survive. The concept of work having inherent value is ruined by the successful hostile review of slaveowners, liege lords et al. Right now work is assigned a subjective value by means of pay, and unpaid work, even though tremendously valuable in collateral terms, receives a valuation of zero. Raising children at home is my salient example of that. cn

So I can tell that if I use any of the words deemed by the fascist American right wing to be of Marxist origin, that the easiest way to deal with my argument will be to dismiss me as a communist. I have been known to defend Obama's economic policies very effectively on this site and make fools of you trickle downe's syndrome morons who have never taken a college class. Now that the election is over, I have no Romney to worry about so while I still stand by my defense of Obama's liberal response to the recession, which worked, against the GOP defenders, who support the policies that got us in trouble and tried to keep us in trouble. I have come fully back into opposing police state and military industrial policies which some of the Pawl bots who paradoxically despise left wing ideas seem to agree with.

In an attempt to keep this simple, Carthoris, nobody wants to take your 401k. I know you'll make some other straw man or just insist that I'm a Marxist, because you are a moron. You are decrying me a Marxist although I vehemently oppose state authority, mean while Obama is very much a state socialist and his policies are fixing the economy and nobody has anything to say about the growing police state.

What I am basically arguing, is that we can have the economic benefits of socialism with out the authoritarian side effects of state socialism.

If you can tell me why you think this is a bad idea with out resorting to "you're just a Marxist" or any variant of that like "you just want to take my things from me" or "you just want to give my 401k to homeless people" we can probably find that we agree a lot. You just foam at the mouth at the word socialism, just like Kynes. I am trying to resist the urge to retort with Fascist and stay civil.

Incoming "but how does that utopian pipe dream work?"

cannabineer said:

My recurrent point is that any such system needs to be stable, and in order for it to be thus, it needs to align with human nature and behavior. The only way I see to do that is to subject it to hostile review by opposing/opposed societies, and have it survive. The concept of work having inherent value is ruined by the successful hostile review of slaveowners, liege lords et al. Right now work is assigned a subjective value by means of pay, and unpaid work, even though tremendously valuable in collateral terms, receives a valuation of zero. Raising children at home is my salient example of that. cn

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You are overlooking that the system is a shaper of human behavior.