Drain to waste deep water culture

Budley Doright said:

Like I said I've ran drain to waste with a timed water cycle and it worked well but no better than my system that I run now imo. This thread was about fill and draining 5 gallon pails every 24 hours so a bit of a difference lol. I just dont see a big improvement doing that than other setups that are actual DTW.

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I allready run dtw with top fed rockwool buckets and I'm quite successful, I'm pulling 20+ oz per square meter which is good (better than what it says on the packet) but I want more.
No matter what way I do drain to waste or with what medium there is no chance on earth that I'm ever going to be able to supply the roots with the same amount of DO as deep water culture.
There is a reason why dwc is so successfull and I shouldn't have to tell you guys that it's not; high maintenance, imbalanced nutrients and ph.
It is however massive ammounts of available nutrients and oxygen delivered straight to the roots.

If I can get the positives of dwc and also the positives of dtw then I know this is going to be a winner (for me). Some people do dwc for a couple years and still don't know what to expect when they arrive at their op after a few days in hospital.

There is also a reason DWC has a very high failure rate and that is also due to lack of DO. I actually had shit luck with it lol. But yup I hear ya nothing wrong with trying new systems, good luck and keep updating!

DirtyMcCurdy said:

I was more defending dtw as a method more than justifying the OP's method of dtw.
Yes, traditional fill and dump top feeding out of a watering can or something is technically "draining to waste" but a drain to waste system refers to something a little more, not much more, complicated.
Right now I am experimenting with dtw on a new table I built. 25 gallon reservoir, 6 plants-only needing about 4 gallons a day right now and set up on a cycle timer to run for 1 minute every day. Gives me a good 5 days when/if needed.

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Yeah my current dtw system comprises of a huge res which gravity feeds buckets filled with rockwool croutons 3-4 times aday. The buckets are standing on regular grow bag trays on a slight angle with a drain at the bottom of them. Drain goes straight down the toilet. I used to use cheap pumps but found them to be less reliable than the hozelock timer and a raised res.

Blue brother said:

Ggw do you find that you can leave your oversized reservoir alone for a full week and NEVER experience any nastiness assosviated with ph swing or nutrient imbalances.

Another good thing is that even though I have a Central res for all plants (convenience), they will be seperate and cannot transmit diseases to one another, or if say I want to flush , simply fill chosen plants bucket with tap water and recirculate, while still being able to run the system for the rest of the plants.

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I can leave it unattended for 2 weeks, I'll have somebody record daily PH/ppm, Its displayed 24/7 on a digital readout. They simply txt me if it goes out of range, the buffers in say General Hydroponics Flora nova are pretty strong so theres little change even at low PPM.

Actually its too your advantage to have some ph change to go towards neutral, nutrients are absorbed differently in PH ranges, so a swing is good thing. It takes some time for a plant to show "lack" of nutrients, even in hydro, like at the end I simply run plain water. It saves money, and like clones, it takes quite a bit of time before your see the plant start to use nutrients from the leaves.

Now I do agree with the isolation of the plants for pathogens, but I've stopped dechlorinating my water with thiosulfate, and I'm just running plain tap water that my city treats with chlorine/chloramines. And that seems to have stopped things like pythium... If you look at commercial hydroponic greenouses, like lettuce production, they share a common tank and run something like inline uv sterilization or for a smaller scale like us we can simply treat with chlorine.

BTW the water is case by case, I have the water tested at each location to see if its ok to use at that location.

In a way I understand your logic for defending DTW.. It seems to have some advantages, like coco, and its runoff.

I've been running the same recirc sprayer system for a year and go away for 10 days at a time. Never had an issue but yes it is checked every 24-36 hours just in case of pump failure, even with that they could last a few days I think, just from high moisture content of root zone. Never actually tried that though lol.

GrowerGoneWild said:

I can leave it unattended for 2 weeks, I'll have somebody record daily PH/ppm, Its displayed 24/7 on a digital readout. They simply txt me if it goes out of range, the buffers in say General Hydroponics Flora nova are pretty strong so theres little change even at low PPM.

Actually its too your advantage to have some ph change to go towards neutral, nutrients are absorbed differently in PH ranges, so a swing is good thing. It takes some time for a plant to show "lack" of nutrients, even in hydro, like at the end I simply run plain water. It saves money, and like clones, it takes quite a bit of time before your see the plant start to use nutrients from the leaves.

Now I do agree with the isolation of the plants for pathogens, but I've stopped dechlorinating my water with thiosulfate, and I'm just running plain tap water that my city treats with chlorine/chloramines. And that seems to have stopped things like pythium... If you look at commercial hydroponic greenouses, like lettuce production, they share a common tank and run something like inline uv sterilization or for a smaller scale like us we can simply treat with chlorine.

BTW the water is case by case, I have the water tested at each location to see if its ok to use at that location.

In a way I understand your logic for defending DTW.. It seems to have some advantages, like coco, and its runoff.

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I couldn't agree enough about the ph swing mate, it's true that elements are better absorbed by the plant ad varying ph levels. I never mentioned before but I use beneficial bacteria. I brew up a tea which is usually around 7 I water the plant with this every other day, this swings the ph up within the rootzone from 5.5 to 6.5, only after 2 more normal wateringgs will the ph return to 5.5 at which point the tea is applied again.

This was something I was concerned about with this new idea, I thought maybe just do the same thing as I do now (a holiday fish feeder dropping a scoop of great white into a res filled with tea) and the same Gravity feed to the buckets, but what would be the best way? Every third bucket refill use only tea? A mix of tea and nutrient solution every day.

When I first started I was all for sterile rootzone, using h2o2 a lot, but since then I've started dabbling with teas and must say my plants love it, so much more to learn about though as opposed to running a sterile rootzone.

I've never used coco which is weird cos a lot of my buddies use it with great results I've just allwAys favoured rockwool cos If I ever have to I can sterilise it which might just save a crop.

Budley Doright said:

I've been running the same recirc sprayer system for a year and go away for 10 days at a time. Never had an issue but yes it is checked every 24-36 hours just in case of pump failure, even with that they could last a few days I think, just from high moisture content of root zone. Never actually tried that though lol.

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I love the idea of dtw sprayer system, I thought about a gravity fed aero dtw system but I doubt i could generate the pressure needed to operate the sprayer with just gravity alone.

A fail safe and or high reliability/ low risk of malfunctions is a fantastic safety net to have in place. Even my bubble cloner was a headache, I'd be out getting my shopping walking around supermarket wondering what the temp would be. I've got enough on my plate without worrying about the varying ph and mineral content of my nutrient solution.

The day when nutrients are chelated in a way that makes them available to plants at a much wider ph range is the day il start recirculating. Apparently advanced nutrients ph perfect works, not because it keeps ph stable cos it don't, but because no matter what the ph is the plants keep taking in all of the nutrients. I've seen a few grows completed without a ph meter that I was sure would fail only to be proven wrong. When this is something I know more about or when the technology becomes so talked about that I can be persuaded then I will probably then start to recirculate. But until that day I'm happy with drain to waste.

If I've missed anyone's suggestions that were aimed at me and haven't replied then point it out guys, I'm doing this all from my cell phone and the difference in time zones means I only ever see all your posts at the same time so sorry if I've missed anyone out. Peace

Blue brother said:

I couldn't agree enough about the ph swing mate, it's true that elements are better absorbed by the plant ad varying ph levels. I never mentioned before but I use beneficial bacteria. I brew up a tea which is usually around 7 I water the plant with this every other day, this swings the ph up within the rootzone from 5.5 to 6.5, only after 2 more normal wateringgs will the ph return to 5.5 at which point the tea is applied again.

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I dont know if beneficial bacteria is needed, a healthy plant and a healthy rootball, that is maintained with normal temps and a regularly changed solution, should not need help. It should be able to defend itself from pathogens.

Now, I dont totally agree with beneficials in a salt based nutrient solution, I've done it before with mixed results. The theory is wrong for me, hitting it with a diverse culture like great white seems not to make sense either. I want a more targeted species, like my prefered innoculants have a small ammount of species. anyways I'd like to see a wet mount to see if the bacteria/fungi is surviving in the solution. The hydroponic environment is literally all the plant needs. I use the bacteria in a medium that can properly support it like soil.

The water I work with is fairly high quality, being soft and chlorinated.. So I dont need to change much, and the large volume gives it a bit of stability because the chloramines take a long time to work out of the system.

What counts is your results, are you hitting your goals as far as yield and quality?.. If you are then just keep on doing what you're doing... clearly there are different methods to grow. DTW is not a good fit for everybody.

Blue brother said:

I couldn't agree enough about the ph swing mate, it's true that elements are better absorbed by the plant ad varying ph levels. I never mentioned before but I use beneficial bacteria. I brew up a tea which is usually around 7 I water the plant with this every other day, this swings the ph up within the rootzone from 5.5 to 6.5, only after 2 more normal wateringgs will the ph return to 5.5 at which point the tea is applied again.

This was something I was concerned about with this new idea, I thought maybe just do the same thing as I do now (a holiday fish feeder dropping a scoop of great white into a res filled with tea) and the same Gravity feed to the buckets, but what would be the best way? Every third bucket refill use only tea? A mix of tea and nutrient solution every day.

When I first started I was all for sterile rootzone, using h2o2 a lot, but since then I've started dabbling with teas and must say my plants love it, so much more to learn about though as opposed to running a sterile rootzone.

I've never used coco which is weird cos a lot of my buddies use it with great results I've just allwAys favoured rockwool cos If I ever have to I can sterilise it which might just save a crop.

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Wow I cant believe the tea shoots up the PH that much. I did run tea for a bit but now just inoculate each root zone from the top with straight bennies (5ml) for each plant and also add 10 ml to res every 3-4 days . I buy microblift pl which is cheap and lasts about 2 complete runs for $30 canadian.

I have no idea if benies work or not lol. I would like to think there is a symbiotic relationship and the roots seem healthy. I've only been indoors for 5 years so still winging it. My goal is to get as much as I can lol. I run well water that is run through a uv light. Great White is a little pricey for me lol.

GrowerGoneWild said:

I dont know if beneficial bacteria is needed, a healthy plant and a healthy rootball, that is maintained with normal temps and a regularly changed solution, should not need help. It should be able to defend itself from pathogens.

Now, I dont totally agree with beneficials in a salt based nutrient solution, I've done it before with mixed results. The theory is wrong for me, hitting it with a diverse culture like great white seems not to make sense either. I want a more targeted species, like my prefered innoculants have a small ammount of species. anyways I'd like to see a wet mount to see if the bacteria/fungi is surviving in the solution. The hydroponic environment is literally all the plant needs. I use the bacteria in a medium that can properly support it like soil.

The water I work with is fairly high quality, being soft and chlorinated.. So I dont need to change much, and the large volume gives it a bit of stability because the chloramines take a long time to work out of the system.

What counts is your results, are you hitting your goals as far as yield and quality?.. If you are then just keep on doing what you're doing... clearly there are different methods to grow. DTW is not a good fit for everybody.

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I definitely noticed a difference just switching from sterile to using ewc tea with great white. You're probably right if everything else is spot on then benneficials maybe won't make a difference to nutrient uptake and growth rate, but it definitely made a difference in my system. My roots are so big and white these days, I can irigate a little more often and my plants seem to thrive on a weaker dose of nutrients too.

Yeah I'm doing really well to be honest, the yield is something that has plateaud now at around the 22oz/m2 and now I'm just trying to squeeze that bit extra out of this strain. Hopefully will be getting some cdm lamps this year to add to and maybe replace the hps. Those babies are supposed to produce super high quality bud, il probably take the hit on yield (and the wallet) and swap the mighty hps, then try and work the yield back up whilst stil maintaining the quality.

Budley Doright said:

Wow I cant believe the tea shoots up the PH that much. I did run tea for a bit but now just inoculate each root zone from the top with straight bennies (5ml) for each plant and also add 10 ml to res every 3-4 days . I buy microblift pl which is cheap and lasts about 2 complete runs for $30 canadian.

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I wAs also surprised at the rise. It was one of those happy accidents lol cos I never intended the ph to swing. At first it just wavered a little so I doubled the volume and it increased significantly. It doesn't cost me much for my bennies, maybe £70 for everything and it could last me over a year but I allwAys give some to friends.

Budley Doright said:

I have no idea if benies work or not lol. I would like to think there is a symbiotic relationship and the roots seem healthy. I've only been indoors for 5 years so still winging it. My goal is to get as much as I can lol. I run well water that is run through a uv light. Great White is a little pricey for me lol.

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Yeah me too it's a nice idea isn't it? Haha. Yeah ive got this thing for yield vs space vs effort. I wanna be able to yield as much as possible in a small space with low effort, my ops have just kind of followed suit. You guys get good water. I'm using municipal water that's been bubbled for 24 hours it's not perfect but it works, it's acctually better suited to NOT using bennies. Will most likely invest in a ro system soon, more control and it removes the need to bubble the water for 24 hours which is one less job. I'd just have the ro system feeding straight into a raised res ready for nutrient mixing. Incase anyone missed it I am a lazy fricken stoner lol

Blue brother said:

I almost went with dyna gro before I bought a years supply of canna but getting it to the uk was a mission. That sure is a WHOLE food.

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I contacted Dyna-Gro direct in the US cos I couldn't find it anywhere in Ireland. They pointed me towards orchidaccessories.Co.uk, based in Witney, Oxfordshire. They carry the full range and at good prices. Otherwise, the only other option I found is to order from eBay.com and pay as much in postage as the product. Still works out cheap though!

Growan said:

I contacted Dyna-Gro direct in the US cos I couldn't find it anywhere in Ireland. They pointed me towards orchidaccessories.Co.uk, based in Witney, Oxfordshire. They carry the full range and at good prices. Otherwise, the only other option I found is to order from eBay.com and pay as much in postage as the product. Still works out cheap though!

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EXCELLENT, looks like il b using dyna gro next year, do you use both parts all the way through and just adjust ratios?

Blue brother said:

I definitely noticed a difference just switching from sterile to using ewc tea with great white. You're probably right if everything else is spot on then benneficials maybe won't make a difference to nutrient uptake and growth rate, but it definitely made a difference in my system. My roots are so big and white these days, I can irigate a little more often and my plants seem to thrive on a weaker dose of nutrients too.

Yeah I'm doing really well to be honest, the yield is something that has plateaud now at around the 22oz/m2 and now I'm just trying to squeeze that bit extra out of this strain. Hopefully will be getting some cdm lamps this year to add to and maybe replace the hps. Those babies are supposed to produce super high quality bud, il probably take the hit on yield (and the wallet) and swap the mighty hps, then try and work the yield back up whilst stil maintaining the quality.

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I can get big healthy roots without bennies, I think its harder to do in DWC, but it can be done. My moms sit in DWC but when I flower I use drip hydrotron.

If you're maxed out on that yield for those genetics, you're already on the right track to upgrade your lights. I for one like to use fresh bulbs as much as possible, I was changing bulbs as often as my budget permited.

And there's the PGR route, if you really want to get crazy.

Blue brother said:

I wAs also surprised at the rise. It was one of those happy accidents lol cos I never intended the ph to swing. At first it just wavered a little so I doubled the volume and it increased significantly. It doesn't cost me much for my bennies, maybe £70 for everything and it could last me over a year but I allwAys give some to friends.



Yeah me too it's a nice idea isn't it? Haha. Yeah ive got this thing for yield vs space vs effort. I wanna be able to yield as much as possible in a small space with low effort, my ops have just kind of followed suit. You guys get good water. I'm using municipal water that's been bubbled for 24 hours it's not perfect but it works, it's acctually better suited to NOT using bennies. Will most likely invest in a ro system soon, more control and it removes the need to bubble the water for 24 hours which is one less job. I'd just have the ro system feeding straight into a raised res ready for nutrient mixing. Incase anyone missed it I am a lazy fricken stoner lol

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I just ran a line to the shed to feed a res lol. Planned on high pressure aero through a RO filter. I'm not lazy (well ok a bit lol) but I build controls so have all kinds of neat crap that I use or am about to use. All of my lighting, heating, cooling/extraction plus CO2 are controlled by one digital panel. I'm limited by power to the shed and need to run a new line and panel. I'm maxed out at 1200 watts of lights and a heater (1000). My water actually sucks lol, lots of calcium so it fucks with mag. and PH, took me a while to dial in, tried lots of nutes till I hit on one that provides stability, just need to find cheaper source lol.

GrowerGoneWild said:

I can get big healthy roots without bennies, I think its harder to do in DWC, but it can be done. My moms sit in DWC but when I flower I use drip hydrotron.

If you're maxed out on that yield for those genetics, you're already on the right track to upgrade your lights. I for one like to use fresh bulbs as much as possible, I was changing bulbs as often as my budget permited.

And there's the PGR route, if you really want to get crazy.

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when I was running sterile I had what I thought was big healthy roots but it wasn't until I switched to bennies that I realised what I had before were puny lol. That's cool bro, why u prefer drip hydro over dwc for flower? Any particular reason? Im sure there is.

Yeah I replace my 600whps after every other flowering cycle. I've got a couple 600w dual arcs I throw in the mix for the first few weeks of flowering. I must admit the dual arc bulb is a fantastic bulb, as long as you can cool it it's awesome. It does putout less lumens than a standard hps but it more than makes up for it with a better spectrum, I just increase the airflow through the cooltube and drop it real close.

Budley Doright said:

I just ran a line to the shed to feed a res lol. Planned on high pressure aero through a RO filter. I'm not lazy (well ok a bit lol) but I build controls so have all kinds of neat crap that I use or am about to use. All of my lighting, heating, cooling/extraction plus CO2 are controlled by one digital panel. I'm limited by power to the shed and need to run a new line and panel. I'm maxed out at 1200 watts of lights and a heater (1000). My water actually sucks lol, lots of calcium so it fucks with mag. and PH, took me a while to dial in, tried lots of nutes till I hit on one that provides stability, just need to find cheaper source lol.

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That's super cool that bro. How much did that controlly majiggy cost you to build? I remember asking the question as a newbie if it would be possible to build one myself with no prior knowledge of electronics. Al b. Fuct laughed at me lol.

You ever thought of running a perpetual grow? You could heat your flower room at night time with your veg room air. I use a lung room and heat my house with it but also use it to raise the flower room temp. Stil removing radiant heat from the bulbs with my cooltubes but using that to heat up the air feels like elegant engineering.