Does freewill exist?

Does freewill exist?

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hillbill

hillbill

Well-Known Member
I quit hunting in 1988 because of a realization of consciousness, not our own. I was not an indigenous subsistence hunter although we utilized what we could the best we could. Some pretty serious sentience with Birds and Mammals. Still fish and eat more than I did when mostly Bass fishing and did a lot of “Catch And Release”. Still release a lot.
 
JamieThePainter

JamieThePainter

Well-Known Member
Dreaming1 said:
How funny would it be to find out we do not have free will, and see how much time and energy we put into the fantasy of having it.
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If we don't have free will though, we were destined to put that time and energy into the fantasy of having it.

Overall though, I think as a society we need to believe that we have free will. Otherwise what would be the point in having a system of law? Person A only slaughtered and ate Person B's entire family before dressing up in a costume made from their skins because he was destined to do so, after all. How could we punish Person A for actions that weren't within his control? He was merely a spectator to his own life.
 
Dreaming1

Dreaming1

Well-Known Member
hillbill said:
I quit hunting in 1988 because of a realization of consciousness, not our own... Some pretty serious sentience with Birds and Mammals.
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I never enjoyed the work behind eating meat. I eat meat though...
It is a strange world where I have to kill and eat another living being to stay alive. Why haven't we been working on making at least 1 more protein for ourselves?

JamieThePainter said:
"If we don't have free will though, we were destined to put that time and energy into the fantasy of having it."
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Yes. I agree.
JamieThePainter said:
Overall though, I think as a society we need to believe that we have free will. Otherwise what would be the point in having a system of law? Person A only slaughtered and ate Person B's entire family before dressing up in a costume made from their skins because he was destined to do so, after all. How could we punish Person A for actions that weren't within his control? He was merely a spectator to his own life.
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I have had this exact conversation sooo many times before. What if? Wild huh? That doesn't mean that this is not exactly what is happening. It is an unsettling thought. And then, In America, you add kids of low income social class to the equation. Limited brain power, limited opportunity, and unlimited bad choices. Then prosecute them. Then after jail, less opportunity. And probably unable to vote because of felonies. So they get taxed without representation in the govt. Wild. And this happens on the regular here.
Ever seen the TV show Westworld? What if we are all that kind of thing? How would we ever find out?
What if we are watching a play where we are predestined? Ok then.
If we are the same, but improvised? Ok then.
If we are free? Ok.
If I am in a loooooop living the exact same life over and over until I get it right, I guess that is fine.
If I am living multiple different lives to get it right, or work of spirit debts, I guess that is fine too.
I really don't have much say in the thing. Not that important.
I love me some Red Hot Chili Peppers. New song called "white braids and pillow chair" has a lyric in it that resonates with me so hard. "Im a tangled tiger and I want to rip all to shreds so I can ask it why."
Here:
John says he feels he was born to be the guitar player of this band.
 
StonedGardener

StonedGardener

Well-Known Member
Dreaming1 said:
I agree with this guy above ⬆
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Where exactly can I find the original interpretation ? How many interpretations are there ? Hard to debate
Dreaming1 said:
Sorry brother, I wasn't intending that to be directed at you. I should have added more words to make that read like it was to the broader public. That's why I started the new paragraph and said you all. But I had quoted your earlier statement and the flow of it does kind of muddle my intention.
As far as I can see, this has become a livelier debate than it has been for a long while. I hope someone finds this in the future and our names are credited with starting mind fires.
Idk that we have to kick it around anymore. Seems like those involved either agree that we are making our choices, or that we are either pawns of a god or godlike entity or are that godlike entity pretending to be us. As far as which is correct is yet to be discerned.
I know nothing. I have never found anyone that knows anything. It seems beyond our reach. We do seem to be a bit of dust in the wind.
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No sweat , this is a juicy subject , evokes deep feelings , Hell , this topic has been "kicked around " forever . It's one of those things , that you put so aptly, starts "mind fires"....love it !
 
Dreaming1

Dreaming1

Well-Known Member
StonedGardener said:
Where exactly can I find the original interpretation ? How many interpretations are there ? Hard to debate.
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Idk...back in time here a few pages. Im cool with j the painters definition a page or so back.
"Free will is the ability to choose the direction of your life, regardless of laws or work obligations.

free will

noun
noun: free will; noun: freewill
  1. the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.
If an outside force is derailing your plans, then it is acting against your freewill. When we talk of freewill in the philosophical sense, we're asking "is it us who choose what we do, or is it fate? Are our lives pre-determined?""

Idk what to do with quotes inside a quote at the end. That looks weird.
So, the 1st part is his set up. Idk that it fits with the def he left, but is more into the area I want to look at. Being able to choose the direction of your life. Being in control of the choices available, not just free to choose between options presented/available. I have had a flagrant disrespect for laws and the notion of authority my entire life. Not all of the laws, but the ones I felt like. A lot of lives are confined by economic/social class and work obligations severely limit personal freedoms. And trying to "come up" involves bending or breaking laws to get there.
The 2nd part is Webster's maybe. And boils it down to is it fate/predeterminism or actual volition. But, we have to assume "will" exists free or not. Like the soul. We look inside and it isn't there. The electrochemical machine inside seems to enable or create it and is necessary for it to happen. It projects it from elsewhere onto this place. There was a guy earlier going into that. Where scientist look inside cells and neurons and shit looking for where does decision making start. They Cant find it. It seems to come from outside. Projected onto this experience.
Thes last part is him explaining the frail,fragile existence of free will, and then wrapping it up succinctly for philosophy speak as predeterminism vs personal volition.
I understand everyone wants to be in control of their existence. Idk that we are. And yes, it evokes strong emotions. My arguments diminish us. And that sucks. I don't fluff our egos and say we are the apex of creation and everything is about us. I say I am nothing. I am no one. I may not even exist. Except as an idea. A character in a play. I know nothing.
 
StonedGardener

StonedGardener

Well-Known Member
Dreaming1 said:
Idk...back in time here a few pages. Im cool with j the painters definition a page or so back.
"Free will is the ability to choose the direction of your life, regardless of laws or work obligations.

free will

noun
noun: free will; noun: freewill
  1. the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.
If an outside force is derailing your plans, then it is acting against your freewill. When we talk of freewill in the philosophical sense, we're asking "is it us who choose what we do, or is it fate? Are our lives pre-determined?""

Idk what to do with quotes inside a quote at the end. That looks weird.
So, the 1st part is his set up. Idk that it fits with the def he left, but is more into the area I want to look at. Being able to choose the direction of your life. Being in control of the choices available, not just free to choose between options presented/available. I have had a flagrant disrespect for laws and the notion of authority my entire life. Not all of the laws, but the ones I felt like. A lot of lives are confined by economic/social class and work obligations severely limit personal freedoms. And trying to "come up" involves bending or breaking laws to get there.
The 2nd part is Webster's maybe. And boils it down to is it fate/predeterminism or actual volition. But, we have to assume "will" exists free or not. Like the soul. We look inside and it isn't there. The electrochemical machine inside seems to enable or create it and is necessary for it to happen. It projects it from elsewhere onto this place. There was a guy earlier going into that. Where scientist look inside cells and neurons and shit looking for where does decision making start. They Cant find it. It seems to come from outside. Projected onto this experience.
Thes last part is him explaining the frail,fragile existence of free will, and then wrapping it up succinctly for philosophy speak as predeterminism vs personal volition.
I understand everyone wants to be in control of their existence. Idk that we are. And yes, it evokes strong emotions. My arguments diminish us. And that sucks. I don't fluff our egos and say we are the apex of creation and everything is about us. I say I am nothing. I am no one. I may not even exist. Except as an idea. A character in a play. I know nothing.
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Who the Hell knows what's going ...I'm thinking since we are unable to "will" things , there can be no free will ......to will something much different than making choices.
 
Dreaming1

Dreaming1

Well-Known Member
StonedGardener said:
Who the Hell knows what's going ...I'm thinking since we are unable to "will" things , there can be no free will ......to will something much different than making choices.
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And you thought we disagreed. :D:hug:
I want to be in control. And I think the idea of free will is one of our ways to tack up some walls in the mind to help us feel safe.
But, if it isn't the Truth with a capitol T, then it is our beLIEf and we have a cult.
The good news is that no one knows. How could we? Mysteries.
Im floating in space on a rock. What do you want from me?
 
JamieThePainter

JamieThePainter

Well-Known Member
I think it's too easy to say we don't have free will, but it's a little sad too. In renouncing free will we don't just pass off all our responsibilities we also pass off all our success and experience. It wasn't us who achieved those things - it was all just part of a script? It writes off the beauty of humanity to me and the beauty of experiencing life. Even if there was a cloud sky daddy hiding up there I'd much prefer to think the experiment of setting a few variables and then watching what life would do with it would be much more rewarding to him than all this just being this great movie he's been writing. Life's much more interesting to me if I view it as a player than as an actor anyway, so who cares what those twisted Gods think?

I'll make my own fate, thanks.
 
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Dreaming1

Dreaming1

Well-Known Member
JamieThePainter said:
I think it's too easy to say we don't have free will, but it's a little sad too. In renouncing free will we don't just pass off all our responsibilities we also pass off all our success and experience. It wasn't us who achieved those things - it was all just part of a script? It writes of the beauty of humanity to me and the beauty of experiencing life. Even if there was a cloud sky daddy hiding up there I'd much prefer to think the experiment of setting a few variables and then watching what life would do with it would be much more rewarding to him than all this just being this great movie he's been writing. Life's much more interesting to me if I view it as a player than as an actor anyway, so who cares what those twisted Gods think?

I'll make my own fate, thanks.
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It is easy to say we do and it is easy to say we don't. All words are pretty much air over vocal chords or stains on planes.
It only reduces "us" if there is an "us." If there is no "us" it doesn't matter what we think. If we do exist as entities with free will, then what we do to one another, or watch complacently, is worse than if we are just playing out some movie. It writes the horrors of our inhumanity and we could have written anything.
I get that everyone feels like their life is important. It is to them. But there have been a lot of people before us. Who were they? We don't know. Most of them didn't matter much except to family and friends. Our names will likely be forgotten to the people in the future. Our lives will not matter to them.
As far as fates go, Maybe I will get what you made next time I'm here.
 
JamieThePainter

JamieThePainter

Well-Known Member
Dreaming1 said:
As far as fates go, Maybe I will get what you made next time I'm here.
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Maybe, but if fates are written for us to enact then there is no you to receive what I made, nor was there an I to make it. We're just actors acting out a play that we can't changfe a thing on. If there is no free will then we are mannequins who wander at a lost... but even then, only because we were told to.
 
Don't Bogart

Don't Bogart

Well-Known Member
If you didn't have freewill you wouldn't be able to post here. Or your being told what to type.
But freewill is conditional. Many times being battered around by someone else's freewill.
I'm special though.
I have complete freewill. Which means I freely park right up front. I use the handicap spaces. I tear up tickets left under my wiper. I don't appear in court for the summons. I leave the state. Vacation in Mexico. I'm now heading for Patagonia. I think I'll swim to Antarctica.
Why?? Because I have freewill.
 
Dreaming1

Dreaming1

Well-Known Member
There is or there is not. I hear you free willers. I hear the free willless. My claim is We do not have free will. An easy exit here is that I Can't prove a negative. I Cant prove we don't have free will. That doesn't prove we have it though either.
I can see that most lives are defined by timeline, geography,and socioeconomic class. I can see in my personal life a lot of synchronicities and some serendipity. The events that shaped me are more magnetic than intellectual. People I have known that were in the right place at the right time have helped me be where I am more than any choices I ever made. Without this supporting cast, I could never have had the choices that were availed to me at key moments. I merely reacted in predictable ways to choices presented. But, my life shaped my personality and that is what made the choices predictable for me at the times I made a choice. An earlier timeline version of me could not have chosen the choices I made. It was ethically taboo. I would have been too scared. I could not have chosen what I was able to as a later mind. So as don't Bogart states it seems to be conditional if it exists. Maybe it is relative.
A quantum-schröedingers free will. You have it as a wave, but not as a particle. Or perhaps, you have it until you try to measure it.
And I would like to say that a lot of the supporting cast of my life have been women. Take some time and thank the supporting cast in your own lives. Free or not, appreciate those who love you.
 
Dreaming1

Dreaming1

Well-Known Member
Don't Bogart said:
If you didn't have freewill you wouldn't be able to post here. Or your being told what to type.
But freewill is conditional. Many times being battered around by someone else's freewill.
I'm special though.
I have complete freewill. Which means I freely park right up front. I use the handicap spaces. I tear up tickets left under my wiper. I don't appear in court for the summons. I leave the state. Vacation in Mexico. I'm now heading for Patagonia. I think I'll swim to Antarctica.
Why?? Because I have freewill.
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If free will is subjected to submission by another's dominant free will, why would anyone be out bragging about having it? Seems like it would just be a tease. Trying to get abused. Like "oh no, Im out here with my tight free will exposed and vulnerable...I hope no one takes advantage..."
Who's free will is the strongest? Are they alive today, long dead, or yet to be? If we choose to poison all of the water today, all of it, with no way to remove the poison, and everyone else from now on have no way to get clean water, have we reduced their free will to live healthy lives? Where is their free will? I stopped it. They have no choice but to slowly die or quickly die. Great news, they get to choose.
All of the travel to amazing places! Sounds like you live a dream.
 
Don't Bogart

Don't Bogart

Well-Known Member
Dreaming1 said:
If free will is subjected to submission by another's dominant free will, why would anyone be out bragging about having it? Seems like it would just be a tease. Trying to get abused. Like "oh no, Im out here with my tight free will exposed and vulnerable...I hope no one takes advantage..."
Who's free will is the strongest? Are they alive today, long dead, or yet to be? If we choose to poison all of the water today, all of it, with no way to remove the poison, and everyone else from now on have no way to get clean water, have we reduced their free will to live healthy lives? Where is their free will? I stopped it. They have no choice but to slowly die or quickly die. Great news, they get to choose.
All of the travel to amazing places! Sounds like you live a dream.
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Oh boy. No fun at parties me thinks, (with freewill).
I tried to get a free will, but my lawyer said I had to pay.
 
Dreaming1

Dreaming1

Well-Known Member
Don't Bogart said:
So you were forced to post this.
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I may have been. No telling. If the program says to interact, I would interact. If the program says choose to interact with certain topics and not others, I would comply within those constraints. And I would never question my actions. If the program was to feel feelings about something, I would surely feel something about it when that thing came along.
It doesn't have to be a god. It could be life itself. Biology controlling us. Using us to further its own goals. Like sex being so good you want to do it and procreation sometimes follows. Then you make several things in the environment trigger brains to feel good and want sex more... And the code of the program? Our DNA. Deeply imbedded programing. Firmware.
These ideas discussed here are the only available options. You merely get to choose from amongst them. You could choose correctly. Place your bet and good luck. We are all in this same boat. It is the only boat.
As far as fun at parties... Ya got me. Sometimes not, brother. Depends on the party. A bunch of douchebags? I will tell all to piss off. Another party with people I enjoy, and I could be everyone's favorite guy. Your personal attacks fall short of their intent. I don't care if you like me or not. You and I are blinks in eternity. Inconsequential and pointless. I can trace my family back across the ocean into the fog of time until the 1400's. Who they liked or disliked? Idk. Not on the tombstones. It doesn't matter to anyone now. Mmmm Mmmm Mmmmm Dang Ol' dust in the wind, man...
 
Bagginski

Bagginski

Well-Known Member
Dreaming1 said:
this is the only intelligent reply. I don't know. I HAVE to take a piss.
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Reality speaks: we have to piss…but it’s free will that takes into the bathroom (or to the nearest tree) instead of pissing ourselves while watching TV in the den.

Awareness of self and others - the ability to register and decode reality in real-time - presents us with choices as circumstances and conditions change. This is what gives us free will: we can react impulsively/compulsively, we can respond spontaneously, we can choose a response. We can choose an action, we can choose not to act.

Or, we can just sit there and piss ourselves.
 
Bagginski

Bagginski

Well-Known Member
Dreaming1 said:
A quantum-schröedingers free will. You have it as a wave, but not as a particle. Or perhaps, you have it until you try to measure it.
And I would like to say that a lot of the supporting cast of my life have been women. Take some time and thank the supporting cast in your own lives. Free or not, appreciate those who love you.
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I like this: yes, a wave of infinite potential freedom of action, crystallized into a form determined by conditions & circumstances…where it *feels* less free because of the restraints imposed by the crystallized form; and having precipitated from he needs of the moment, the measurement reads “I felt like I had no choice but to….”

Supporting casts…if there are people in your life who truly trust you, spend some of your free will on *keeping* their trust…and if there are people in your life YOU truly trust, devote some free will to making sure you play fair with them.
 
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