Does CO2 cause global warming? Is it good to reduce CO2? Who the Frack cares!

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
Siding with overwhelming majority of scientists, touting peer reviewed studies = bandwagon fallacy.
funny, seems the national academy of sciences says "needs more study", not "OHH SHIT WE'S FUCKED!!"

the phrase "needs more study" lies somewhere between "dude, your hypothesis is HIGHLY unlikely" and "hmm there may be something to this" which means in essence "not impossible, but not proved" which is not at all how "Anthropogenic Global Climate Change Hypothesisists" would lead the press to believe, instead they quietly sit back and let the fools scream and shout and gin up terror, which consequently opens the purse for federal grants and even international study money.

they did the saame thing with the "New Ice Age" which apparently only lasted between late October 1978 and early May 1979. but yeah it was totally real, you can look it up!
 

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
funny, seems the national academy of sciences says "needs more study", not "OHH SHIT WE'S FUCKED!!"

the phrase "needs more study" lies somewhere between "dude, your hypothesis is HIGHLY unlikely" and "hmm there may be something to this" which means in essence "not impossible, but not proved" which is not at all how "Anthropogenic Global Climate Change Hypothesisists" would lead the press to believe, instead they quietly sit back and let the fools scream and shout and gin up terror, which consequently opens the purse for federal grants and even international study money.

they did the saame thing with the "New Ice Age" which apparently only lasted between late October 1978 and early May 1979. but yeah it was totally real, you can look it up!
So just to make it abundantly clear, you do categorically deny that global warming is being accelerated by man made emissions despite a near consensus of scientists world wide?
 

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
So just to make it abundantly clear, you do categorically deny that global warming is being accelerated by man made emissions despite a near consensus of scientists world wide?
i categorically state the following:

1 ) while it is POSSIBLE that human action may influence the climate, it is not proved.
2 ) the general warming trend currently on hiatus will return, as it has been trending warmer since the last major glaciation, and the peak has not yet arrived.
3 ) the best estimates from CLIMATOLOGISTS is that sometime in the next 100-300 years the current interglacial period will peak, and the northern hemisphere will begins growing colder again.
4 ) solar activity plays a much larger role in climate than any other phenomena currently hypothesized, including massive asteroid impacts.
5 ) we can expect an extended warming trend around the year 5billion or so when the sun goes all Red Giant on us. mark your calendars. bring your sunscreen.
6 ) hysterically demanding an end to CO2 emissions is ridiculous and shortsighted.
7 ) most of the proponents of global warming have discredited themselves, and have shown themselves to be little better than holy relic salesmen during the last great climate doomsday scare in the year 1300 or so.
8 ) during the medieval warm period, england produced better wine than france. england is not yet that warm, so we have yet to hit the shit-your-pants stage, the current climate is still only "medium"
9 ) the real climatological studies are focused quite narrowly on CO2, but the researchers have yet to find a correlation with rising temps, not even in the ice cores. CO2 rises seem to FOLLOW warming trends, not lead them.
10) IF global warming is occurring, it is not yet proved whether it is bad, or good. only fearmongers are claiming desertification and doom.
11) the last time we hit the peak temps the Sahara desert was still a verdant jungle, even Uruk was not yet founded. those high temps were not man-caused in the slightest. the earth endured.
12) and lastly, science is not a game of consensus, nor is it a popularity contest. real climatologists are on it, let them work without the hysterical shouting, and without hurling brickbats if you dont like their findings.
 

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
i categorically state the following:

1 ) while it is POSSIBLE that human action may influence the climate, it is not proved.
2 ) the general warming trend currently on hiatus will return, as it has been trending warmer since the last major glaciation, and the peak has not yet arrived.
3 ) the best estimates from CLIMATOLOGISTS is that sometime in the next 100-300 years the current interglacial period will peak, and the northern hemisphere will begins growing colder again.
4 ) solar activity plays a much larger role in climate than any other phenomena currently hypothesized, including massive asteroid impacts.
5 ) we can expect an extended warming trend around the year 5billion or so when the sun goes all Red Giant on us. mark your calendars. bring your sunscreen.
6 ) hysterically demanding an end to CO2 emissions is ridiculous and shortsighted.
7 ) most of the proponents of global warming have discredited themselves, and have shown themselves to be little better than holy relic salesmen during the last great climate doomsday scare in the year 1300 or so.
8 ) during the medieval warm period, england produced better wine than france. england is not yet that warm, so we have yet to hit the shit-your-pants stage, the current climate is still only "medium"
9 ) the real climatological studies are focused quite narrowly on CO2, but the researchers have yet to find a correlation with rising temps, not even in the ice cores. CO2 rises seem to FOLLOW warming trends, not lead them.
10) IF global warming is occurring, it is not yet proved whether it is bad, or good. only fearmongers are claiming desertification and doom.
11) the last time we hit the peak temps the Sahara desert was still a verdant jungle, even Uruk was not yet founded. those high temps were not man-caused in the slightest. the earth endured.
12) and lastly, science is not a game of consensus, nor is it a popularity contest. real climatologists are on it, let them work without the hysterical shouting, and without hurling brickbats if you dont like their findings.


TRUE or FALSE

Man made CO2 emissions accelerate global warming.
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
The Reason Foundation is a self-described "libertarian" [SUP][1][/SUP] think tank. The Reason Foundation's projects include NewEnvironmentalism.org and Privatization.org, as well as Reason Magazine[SUP][2][/SUP] It is part of the Atlas Economic Research Foundation network.
The Reason Foundation is funded, in part, by what are known as the "Koch Family Foundations,"[SUP][3][/SUP] and David Koch serves as a Reason trustee. [SUP][4][/SUP]
According to the Reason Foundation's 2009 Internal Revenue Source 990 return form, it took in $6 million in donation income against $6.7 million in expenses, with only $639,236 in subscription revenue and $113,575 in ad revenue. [SUP][5][/SUP]
Funny how that works. If very rich men want people to believe a certain way, they have only to pay enough and be a little bit patient and even the more wise of us, the more circumspect will wind up injecting these "ideas" into discussions. How can we help but love the internet.
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
So, you guys hate Gaea and you want CO2 levels to rise? Not surprising.

Me and ALGORE want unicorn farts to power the planet.

We all have been tricked desert dude. I have posted things that were quickly found to have eminated from self interested and self serving origins - no, not simply ideologicaly based bloggers or opinionated spokesholes for one side or another but actuall seed material that was meant to lead us astray. I encourage you to accept the fact that you were tricked and move on. I have found this works best.
 

canndo

Well-Known Member


We must be oh so careful when using consensus as a basis for belief, even if the consensus is peer reviewed articles. I am having some trouble however with the notion that there were 24 peer reviewed articles rejecting global warming. I have yet to see one. Most "rejections" are mostly the opinions of those who rather than do their own research, attempt to invalidate the research of others. It brings to mind the Intelligent Design movement that has yet to produce a single paper detailing original research.
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
i categorically state the following:

1 ) while it is POSSIBLE that human action may influence the climate, it is not proved.
2 ) the general warming trend currently on hiatus will return, as it has been trending warmer since the last major glaciation, and the peak has not yet arrived.
3 ) the best estimates from CLIMATOLOGISTS is that sometime in the next 100-300 years the current interglacial period will peak, and the northern hemisphere will begins growing colder again.
4 ) solar activity plays a much larger role in climate than any other phenomena currently hypothesized, including massive asteroid impacts.
5 ) we can expect an extended warming trend around the year 5billion or so when the sun goes all Red Giant on us. mark your calendars. bring your sunscreen.
6 ) hysterically demanding an end to CO2 emissions is ridiculous and shortsighted.
7 ) most of the proponents of global warming have discredited themselves, and have shown themselves to be little better than holy relic salesmen during the last great climate doomsday scare in the year 1300 or so.
8 ) during the medieval warm period, england produced better wine than france. england is not yet that warm, so we have yet to hit the shit-your-pants stage, the current climate is still only "medium"
9 ) the real climatological studies are focused quite narrowly on CO2, but the researchers have yet to find a correlation with rising temps, not even in the ice cores. CO2 rises seem to FOLLOW warming trends, not lead them.
10) IF global warming is occurring, it is not yet proved whether it is bad, or good. only fearmongers are claiming desertification and doom.
11) the last time we hit the peak temps the Sahara desert was still a verdant jungle, even Uruk was not yet founded. those high temps were not man-caused in the slightest. the earth endured.
12) and lastly, science is not a game of consensus, nor is it a popularity contest. real climatologists are on it, let them work without the hysterical shouting, and without hurling brickbats if you dont like their findings.
1. It will never be "proven", just as the theory of flight will not be, nor the theory of evolution. Even when we know what is going on, when we can finally measure the particulars of global climate, we will never be able to prove it was man made. That is the wonderful quailty of science where things can only ever be disproven. I will wager that anthropormorphic climate change will never be disproven.
2. the general warming trend is not on "hiatus". I don't know where this idea that the planet is no longer in a warming cycle came from but it is rapidly becoming "generaly accepted truth". Just as those with the most interest in the status quo would like it to be. Or did you not notice all of the 100 year events that have been transpiring from hurricanes to drought.
3. I doubt that climatologists are reasonably forecasting an end to a 100 thousand year cycle in either direction.
4. It is well established that we are not on the cusp of any solar cycle - this "the sun is doing it" is another lay idea spread by those with the most interest in the energy status quo.
5. True enough, but until then it is entirely possible that our world will endure climatological changes that will make us as a species, very very uncomfortable.
6. Hysterical demands for any world wide alterations in the way mankind does business is always rediculous and short sighted. When we see an oncoming car's headlights in our own lane, it is not considered hysterical to contemplate changing lanes, or at the very least, applying pressure to the brake pedal rather than claiming that the lights are an illusion and we should accelerate.
7. No, "most" of the proponents have not discredited themselves or their work.
8. I believe that the last medieval warm period brought an influx of rat infestation and with it, a species of insect that, in concert with a certain bacteria caused the death of one quarter to one half of all humans. One could argue that there was no cause for alarm because the disease didn't wipe out all of humanity and they might even have an argument - but the dead would have one as well.
9. The problem with the cart before the horse argument - that CO2 rise is secondary to warming is one that most dismiss but the essential portion of the debate is the fact that the mechanism of causality is understood in the case of co2 to warming. Warming to Co2 remains unexplained. So long as it is,, it has no bearing on the discussion - again, Occam's razor comes to play.
10. Bad? Bad for whom? parasite bearing insects? those who live in regions that they would like to be warmer? As a whole, we all figure that increases in drought, the spread of other diseases, hurricanes and tornados, loss of valuable shoreline real estate, destruction of reefs, halting the oceanic conveyor, heavy and extended precipitation in areas not accustomed to such downfall are usually considered to be bad things.
11. Because we didn't cause the last warming cycle has nothing to do with our having caused this one. We could as easily go to easter island and state that ten million years before Humans cut down every single living tree in order to put up their statues, there were no trees on the island and therefore it wasn't a problem that the trees are gone this time.
12. WE agree, it is not a game of consensus. There was a time when the consensus in the new science of geology was that the earth was only 8 thousand years old. That God created the earth and that he did it exactly as described in the old testament was a given.

The problem however, is that climatologists are not free to work it out in a political vaccuum. They had their chance at it, certain interested parties caught wind of it and figured that climatologists needed some help - in the way of propaganda. Thus was born the GCC and from that point on what was pure science became a political event. Follow the money and you will find comparatively little on the side of man made global climate change. That is a real problem and results finally in the hysterical shouting you describe.
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
You don't know the answer, nor does science, however it is pursuing an answer.

Jumping to retarded premature assumptions is retarded.

We have been looking at this question for 30 years. If we wait for "proof" we will fail. If we wait for the nay sayers to change their mind, we will wait for ever. there comes a time when we must act. If we do act the worst that can happen is that we cost ourselves some money. If we do not, there are far more problematic consequences.
 

desert dude

Well-Known Member
i categorically state the following:

1 ) while it is POSSIBLE that human action may influence the climate, it is not proved.
2 ) the general warming trend currently on hiatus will return, as it has been trending warmer since the last major glaciation, and the peak has not yet arrived.
3 ) the best estimates from CLIMATOLOGISTS is that sometime in the next 100-300 years the current interglacial period will peak, and the northern hemisphere will begins growing colder again.
4 ) solar activity plays a much larger role in climate than any other phenomena currently hypothesized, including massive asteroid impacts.
5 ) we can expect an extended warming trend around the year 5billion or so when the sun goes all Red Giant on us. mark your calendars. bring your sunscreen.
6 ) hysterically demanding an end to CO2 emissions is ridiculous and shortsighted.
7 ) most of the proponents of global warming have discredited themselves, and have shown themselves to be little better than holy relic salesmen during the last great climate doomsday scare in the year 1300 or so.
8 ) during the medieval warm period, england produced better wine than france. england is not yet that warm, so we have yet to hit the shit-your-pants stage, the current climate is still only "medium"
9 ) the real climatological studies are focused quite narrowly on CO2, but the researchers have yet to find a correlation with rising temps, not even in the ice cores. CO2 rises seem to FOLLOW warming trends, not lead them.
10) IF global warming is occurring, it is not yet proved whether it is bad, or good. only fearmongers are claiming desertification and doom.
11) the last time we hit the peak temps the Sahara desert was still a verdant jungle, even Uruk was not yet founded. those high temps were not man-caused in the slightest. the earth endured.
12) and lastly, science is not a game of consensus, nor is it a popularity contest. real climatologists are on it, let them work without the hysterical shouting, and without hurling brickbats if you dont like their findings.
I second this list. Good work, herr doctor!
 

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
When over 99% of the world's scientists say we need to change our ways or face population bottleneck and even extinction, it is time to change our ways.
 

desert dude

Well-Known Member
We have been looking at this question for 30 years. If we wait for "proof" we will fail. If we wait for the nay sayers to change their mind, we will wait for ever. there comes a time when we must act. If we do act the worst that can happen is that we cost ourselves some money. If we do not, there are far more problematic consequences.
So, what should we do? Sign the Kyoto accords? Trade carbon credits? Tax the rich!!!? Kill the whales? What?
 

desert dude

Well-Known Member
I posted this topic because I thought it would make many of you happy, especially those who are morose about anthropogenic global warming. The US CO2 emissions are at about the same level they were in 1992. Isn't that something to rejoice over? It's GOOD NEWS. It seems to be what the AGW crowd wants, lowered CO2 emissions.

Part of the way the lowered CO2 emissions result was achieved was through the displacement of coal with natural gas to fire electrical generation plants. The main reason that happened was because NG is much cheaper than it used to be. The main reason for decreased price of NG was because of a huge jump in supplies brought on by hydraulic fracturing. Fracking is safe and effective, despite what the superstitious witch doctors in the enviro-crowd say.

Again, in summary: THIS IS GOOD NEWS. REJOICE.
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
So, what should we do? Sign the Kyoto accords? Trade carbon credits? Tax the rich!!!? Kill the whales? What?
The accords won't do much but it is a start. Now don't let's do the "yeah but we take the brunt of the changes" stuff. That is for children. "mom, you gave billy more pie then you gave me". We start by acknowlging that something is happening and that we are causing it. We begin by saying that we have a problem. Then, as I saiid before, we begin artificialy raising the cost of fossil fuels placing the taxes raised into reduced carbon situations. Carbon credits? while I love the idea, I have read some honest debate about them recently that has me left with the belief that it won't do much.


Of course tax the rich, they rich made the most from fossil fuels and now it is time to get some of that money back What happened was very simple. We never paid the full price for our temporary use of fossil fuels and now it is time to pay up.

The whales? I suppose we could go back to whale oil, it was once our source of light in this country but what happened? we switched to kerosine and surprise! we didn't all die, we weren't all cast into the dark ages, some industry suffered, others were born.

We go on by admitting that we should have done something earlier, we should have begun 20 years ago but that time is passed. We cannot simply go back to a less co2 producing period. We can attempt to arrest our acceleration of production of that gas, we can attempt to reverse it and we can try to sequester it but it is done. We make the hard choices. We pump funds into solar research, we make wind a priority. We begin serious efforts at efficiency, we approach it like we would a war (hell we do it with everything else, why not REALLY do it).

An example is compact fluorescent. I hear all this whining from the right about flourescent lights. They take too long to come on, they don't give off the right kind of light, they are oooohhhh so DANGEROUS (when all the right is really saying is that the left are idiots and things should remain the same, all they are realy saying is that government shouldn't get involved.)

Government involvement? I mentioned once that we needed government to help us with resistant strains of bacteria. Here again, global warming cannot be tackled without government intervention - the free market cannot be our first line of defense. So government mandates are a necessity. Back to the war. In WWII you probably wouldn't hear people complaining about gas rationing - it was a necessity, it was the war effort. This is not much different - shut the hell up about your light bulbs or your toilet not flushing.

So, we have raised taxes on fossil fuel based energy(save natgas), we have laid plans to sequester either in chemical capturing methods or in planting of trees, we are putting large amounts of money into solar, battery and wind power and we are efficient. Now we do the more questionable things, nuclear and natural gas. We allow industry to frack but we oversee it closely (wow, big government again).


Because we are too late, because we cannot reverse a century of co2 emissons, we begin to plan for coping with the changes. We build levees and ocean containment, we stop any subsidy for people who live in the sunbelt, we begin to act on the predictions of the doomsayers in logical and realistic ways so that as the trouble comes we are at least prepared for some of it.
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
Fracking is safe and effective, despite what the superstitious witch doctors in the enviro-crowd say.

Again, in summary: THIS IS GOOD NEWS. REJOICE.

Yeah, except for those pesky earthquakes that fracking seems to be inducing in Texas.
 

desert dude

Well-Known Member
You sound like a well meaning guy, Canndo. I think you are jumping the gun, though. I agree with Kynes' list. It is not proven that "anthros" are causing what warming we are seeing, nor, for that matter, whether global warming is even necessarily a bad thing on a global scale. Climate change has been happening for tens of thousands of years, long before humans were in any way significant. It is apparently cyclic.

Rushing out to shut down economic pursuits would cause unimaginable human suffering. The Kyoto accord is a scam. The US was correct to reject it. Green energy is a foolish waste of money when pursued as we are doing now. It should be pursued in a researchy way instead of a government subsidized market penetration manner. IF it ever becomes economically competitive then the market will embrace it.

But, here is the thing, the original topic was not directly about GW, it was about the ever-present conundrum of the enviro-lefties: We have reduced CO2 emissions by fracking. "Oh, God, we can't frack... Oh, God, we must reduce CO2 emissions..." Dear enviros, please choose one.
 
Top