Do LED’s promote cal-mag issues

turbobuzz

Well-Known Member
I switched to an hlg 350r light a while back, and am on my third plant with it. I do one at a time. Every time I end up fighting what appears to be a calcium or magnesium deficiency. Yellowing leaves with brown spots. Could this possibly have anything to do with led lighting? Maybe a possible result of that type of light? I didn’t use to have those issues with CMH, or further back T5’s. Just curious if anyone else noticed this. I did switch to organics though, so maybe that has something to do with it.
 

LewberDewber852

Well-Known Member
I switched to an hlg 350r light a while back, and am on my third plant with it. I do one at a time. Every time I end up fighting what appears to be a calcium or magnesium deficiency. Yellowing leaves with brown spots. Could this possibly have anything to do with led lighting? Maybe a possible result of that type of light? I didn’t use to have those issues with CMH, or further back T5’s. Just curious if anyone else noticed this. I did switch to organics though, so maybe that has something to do with it.
When u say switched to organics what does that consist of soil wise? What did u switch from? I have read that same thing about LEDs but sounds like broscience tbh. My guess would be you have a higher ppfd value which your environment/vpd and the plant cannot keep up with. Idk for sure tho and hoping somebody with more valuable info chimes in..
 

Boatguy

Well-Known Member
Calcium and magnesium deficiencies resemble so many other deficiencies it is hard to tell what is forum myth or reality.
I can tell you that i have supplemented my organic grows and it seemed to help.... That said, i did a hydro grow a few back with just flora nova bloom and didnt need to add any calmag in spite of my led lighting
 

Delps8

Well-Known Member
The big changes from gas discharge to LED are that there's more PAR available, generally speaking, and LED's don't give off IR, generally speaking, so ambient temps and leaf surface temps are lower with LED's. The lower temp reduces transpiration rates so that will tend to slow water and nutrient uptake. The plants are fine with those change - to a plant, there's more sun but it's not as hot.

Switching to organics - that's where I'd look, not because organics vs conventional but because you're providing nutrients in, apparently, a very different way than you have previously.
 

Rocket Soul

Well-Known Member
OP: what is your environment like? Did you make adaptions to grow climate when starting to use led? As per previous answers: led lights means missing heat and transporation, most people use around 80-84F to increase drinking.

Organics : seems a bit hard to keep them calmag supplied without hydro nutes.
 

turbobuzz

Well-Known Member
OP: what is your environment like? Did you make adaptions to grow climate when starting to use led? As per previous answers: led lights means missing heat and transporation, most people use around 80-84F to increase drinking.

Organics : seems a bit hard to keep them calmag supplied without hydro nutes.
Stays about 77 to 80 lights on, and 70 with lights off. I’m beginning to think organics is where the problem lies. I gave it a healthy dose of cal mag a couple days ago, and I see a noticeable improvement. I ordered some more cal mag, and am going to be a bit more proactive with it. I was fine in veg, but mid flowering I always notice the brown spots. Day 33 of 12/12 gelato.
 

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Rocket Soul

Well-Known Member
Stays about 77 to 80 lights on, and 70 with lights off. I’m beginning to think organics is where the problem lies. I gave it a healthy dose of cal mag a couple days ago, and I see a noticeable improvement. I ordered some more cal mag, and am going to be a bit more proactive with it. I was fine in veg, but mid flowering I always notice the brown spots. Day 33 of 12/12 gelato.
When you raise light intensity with leda you need to increase temps a bit and most likely add some calmag.
Also a good point to read up about vpd/vapour pressure deficit to get your transpiration on point
 

Delps8

Well-Known Member
Stays about 77 to 80 lights on, and 70 with lights off. I’m beginning to think organics is where the problem lies. I gave it a healthy dose of cal mag a couple days ago, and I see a noticeable improvement. I ordered some more cal mag, and am going to be a bit more proactive with it. I was fine in veg, but mid flowering I always notice the brown spots. Day 33 of 12/12 gelato.
In your second photo, you're showing only a very small area that's impacted. It's on a lower leaf, the damage is severe and concentric, and is isolated to a few spots. Not that I've ever done this (ha hah) but that sure looks like a drop of nute water fell on the leaf. I realize it's a long shot but is this the only area that's damaged?
 

amneziaHaze

Well-Known Member
I switched to an hlg 350r light a while back, and am on my third plant with it. I do one at a time. Every time I end up fighting what appears to be a calcium or magnesium deficiency. Yellowing leaves with brown spots. Could this possibly have anything to do with led lighting? Maybe a possible result of that type of light? I didn’t use to have those issues with CMH, or further back T5’s. Just curious if anyone else noticed this. I did switch to organics though, so maybe that has something to do with it.
since you changed lights did you get a drastic change in flower amount?if soo the increase in cal/mag would be proportional to the plant growth
 

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
Go easy on the Cal-Mag supplement at this point in flowering. I will explain why at the bottom of this post . . .

You have a cal-mag deficiency for sure. Middle leaves (semi-mobile nutrient deficiency), intervenal chlorosis (Mg) and rust spots (Ca).

There are four possible causes, two of which have been listed already:

* Not enough transpiration: calcium uptake is controlled by transpiration in a feedback loop – evaporation at the leaf surface draws calcium-rich nutrient into the plant, and calcium controls stomatal opening, which in turn regulates transpiration. As others have pointed out, LEDs have less IR which means lower leaf temps, which can lead to lower transpiration if ambient temperatures are also low.

Solution: increase ambient temperatures

* Not enough alround nutrient: LED has a better spectrum than HID which can lead to faster growth, meaning more nutrient requirements. Lower transpiration also means higher ECs are required for the same nutrient uptake. Cooler weather (less transpiration) also requires higher ECs.

Solution: raise EC levels (hydro) or organic fertilisers

* Low pH will lock out Ca and Mg. Generally you want a higher pH during veg for this reason, as the plant uses more Cal-Mag in relation to PK, which is facilitated by a slightly lower pH. However, soil is a much better pH buffer than hydroponic media (coco is somewhere in the middle), so pH problems are rarer in soil than hydro, but not uncommon in coco.

Solution: if your pH is too low, raise it slightly. Add lime to organics to raise pH and boost calcium and magnesium to the mix

* Cal-Mag lockout during flowering: Some growers overdo the PK too early in flower. Potassium (K) competes with calcium (and vice versa). Plants still need calcium, magnesium and nitrogen – especially during the stretch period – before the full onset of flowering. In fact, plants tend to need more calcium during the initial stages of stretch because they are building a lot of cells (leaf and stem mass) to create bud sites. Nitrogen deficiency is also common during this period, and nitrogen facilitates magnesium uptake, which can lead to a deficiency.

Solution: Maintain Ca, Mg and N levels in early flower. Maintain slightly higher pH until after the stretch. Do not boost with PK untikl the full onset of flowering (around the beginning of week 5 in 8-week strains). Pretty much all Cal-Mag supplements contain nitrogen (calcium-nitrate and magnesium nitrate being the common ingredients), so if you hit your plants with a Cal-Mag supplement at the begining of flowering, that will also take care of the nitrogen requirements.

I am leaning towards the last cause as being your issue. Especially if you have any coco coir in the mix.

Take heart, even though you have a deficiency, it could be a lot worse! So I'm guessing you only need to add a little more Cal-Mag at the right time (or change you nutrient regime and/or organic mix) to get back on track. Your plants don't look too bad.

HOWEVER, you are now in the middle of flowering, so if you add too much Cal-Mag at this stage, you will lock out potassium (K) which will affect flower development, which will impact yields.

Best to learn from this grow and improve the next.
 

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
Usuall magnesium will show strongly at the bottom leafs thats why i never lolipop they show deficencys
Not necessarily. Magnesium is a mobile nutrient but is not as mobile as NPK. It is the central atom in chlorophyl and while it generally appears on older leaves first, it is not guaranteed to start at the bottom of the plant.

Plus it's completely wrong to say that lollipopping causes nutrient deficiencies. If you are getting a deficiency or lockout, it is not because you are lollipopping – it's because you have a nutrient or pH imbalance. Removing fan leaves removes nutrient reserves that can be used in the event of nutrient issues – which can cause deficiencies at the top of the plant to show sooner – but it is not the cause.
 

Hooda Thunkit

Well-Known Member
Not necessarily. Magnesium is a mobile nutrient but is not as mobile as NPK. It is the central atom in chlorophyl and while it generally appears on older leaves first, it is not guaranteed to start at the bottom of the plant.

Plus it's completely wrong to say that lollipopping causes nutrient deficiencies. If you are getting a deficiency or lockout, it is not because you are lollipopping – it's because you have a nutrient or pH imbalance. Removing fan leaves removes nutrient reserves that can be used in the event of nutrient issues – which can cause deficiencies at the top of the plant to show sooner – but it is not the cause.
Think he's saying that leaving some lowers can give insight into overall plant health.

Not pro or con from me, just how I read it.
 

OneHitDone

Well-Known Member
Organics : seems a bit hard to keep them calmag supplied without hydro nutes.
This has shown to be completely the opposite of true for myself and pretty much anyone else I have seen dabble in organic. You can run very high calcium levels in organics. Improving plant quality above what I have yet been able to achieve with synthetic nutrients. "yet"

And everyone please - Stop saying "Cal-Mag Deficiency"! That is a product not an element and saying so makes us all look like Bro Science clowns :peace:
 

amneziaHaze

Well-Known Member
Not necessarily. Magnesium is a mobile nutrient but is not as mobile as NPK. It is the central atom in chlorophyl and while it generally appears on older leaves first, it is not guaranteed to start at the bottom of the plant.

Plus it's completely wrong to say that lollipopping causes nutrient deficiencies. If you are getting a deficiency or lockout, it is not because you are lollipopping – it's because you have a nutrient or pH imbalance. Removing fan leaves removes nutrient reserves that can be used in the event of nutrient issues – which can cause deficiencies at the top of the plant to show sooner – but it is not the cause.
no i meant i leave the lolypop because when using masterblend the original recept doesnt have enough and older leafs start dying off then i bump the dose.you have a few tries to get the perfect formula until the leafs of the usefull stuff starts dying
 

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
no i meant i leave the lolypop because when using masterblend the original recept doesnt have enough and older leafs start dying off then i bump the dose.you have a few tries to get the perfect formula until the leafs of the usefull stuff starts dying
Why would you use a blend that you know is deficient? That just doesn't make any sense.
 

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
Think he's saying that leaving some lowers can give insight into overall plant health.

Not pro or con from me, just how I read it.
I'm not one who subscribes to wholesale fan leaf removal, because the more fan leaves you remove the more the plant will divert energy to grow its other fan leaves – especially around the bud sites – which, IMO, impacts yields. But you can still judge a healthy plant. This is not directed at you, but his logic doesn't make any sense to me.
 

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
This has shown to be completely the opposite of true for myself and pretty much anyone else I have seen dabble in organic. You can run very high calcium levels in organics. Improving plant quality above what I have yet been able to achieve with synthetic nutrients. "yet"

And everyone please - Stop saying "Cal-Mag Deficiency"! That is a product not an element and saying so makes us all look like Bro Science clowns :peace:
I know what you mean, but in this case there is evidence of both calcium and magnesium deficiency. Also, as we all know, most supplments are referred to as "Cal-Mag", even though they all contain nitrogen, iron and in some cases boron and other metals. It's just a generic term.

Yes, you can run high levels of caclium in organics because pH buffering tends to be more stable. There's also a lot more cation binding and exchange betwen the media and nutrient solution that binds calcium. The reason calcium and magnesium are often affected at the same time is because they are both double-positive ions, so are more attracted to the negative ions of clay and coco coir etc, which will give up potassium and sodium ions in exchange, because they are both single-positive (and hence less attractive). They are also both reliant on transpiration uptake, whereas other nutrients can be taken in via reverse-osmosis or ATP.
 
This has shown to be completely the opposite of true for myself and pretty much anyone else I have seen dabble in organic. You can run very high calcium levels in organics. Improving plant quality above what I have yet been able to achieve with synthetic nutrients. "yet"

And everyone please - Stop saying "Cal-Mag Deficiency"! That is a product not an element and saying so makes us all look like Bro Science clowns :peace:
One hit makes a great point. Since you're getting into soil may wanna check that your bio stimulants are on point. Cal Mag also has a trickle of additional N ammonium in nature so you may wanna look at isolating as needed with mag amp(Mag) or plant amp(calcium). That extra N is not only a taste spoiler but a neon light for spider mites so to the point calcium chloride organically chelated will be your best friend minus the n and don't sweat the ph on this stuff the amino acids don't register correctly on a meter.... This was floating around awile back and may grab your attention.. The ole Harley 5:2 crazy study nobody could find.... 5ml full power(fulvic) 2ml Nitrozyme(seeweed) in 1ltr foliar .
https://youtu.be/bAZyBp6yJsU?si=M_tw13K9JuafI1ra

Hope this may add another angle to solving the new tech wrinkle out...

Much Success
 
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