Do genetics change over time?

Plant selection is without doubt the most important factor for a grower / breeder.

But I also want to stress how important environmental influences are in a natural, and evolutionary sense.
What seems "better" and more appealing to the grower, mightn't be better for the plants own survival at all. That's why plant selection is so important.

Also from an evolutionary and environmental sense, it's purely a game of numbers and survival.
That's why it's theoretically better to select from a bunch of plants, and choose those with the character you're after.

If stabilization / consistency / longevity is what you're after whilst making seed, then choosing more than a single plant or pheno, is always better than choosing only 1 mum and dad.

Genetics most definitely change over time. Environment, selection and plant count being the most important factors.
That's my own 2 cents on the matter.

radiant Rudy said:

Interesting topic

What is Genetic Drift and How Does it Apply to Cloning and Micro-propagation?

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Yup genetic drift. Those changes in the meristem happen gradually in cell division, over a long extended time and accumulate. So what you'll have after 10 years is definitely not the plant you started with even if it is still good (by luck).

Northwood said:

Yup genetic drift. Those changes in the meristem happen gradually in cell division, over a long extended time and accumulate. So what you'll have after 10 years is definitely not the plant you started with even if it is still good (by luck).

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I just learned that the term "genetic drift" refers to the dynamics of a population rather than the effect of successive asexual generations of a particular plant. What type changes in the meristem happen over time?

im curious about which characteristics can be made stable indefinitely and whether variation over time is the same for clones of woody plants as it might be for clones of annuals.

A point was raised earlier about Japanese maple varieties that have been described in the literature for at least several hundred years. Many of these plants are still available today and are thought by experts to be accurate examples of 'ancient' cultivars. Scions of cultivars are grafted on specie rootstock to maintain the variety. It seems like rootstock doesnt effect the characteristics passed along. I dont think there are any Japanese maple cultivars that come true from seed. I think these plants were asexually propagated from the get with each new variety being a desirable mutation or hybrid.

radiant Rudy said:

I just learned that the term "genetic drift" refers to the dynamics of a population rather than the effect of successive asexual generations of a particular plant. What type changes in the meristem happen over time?

im curious about which characteristics can be made stable indefinitely and whether variation over time is the same for clones of woody plants as it might be for clones of annuals.

A point was raised earlier about Japanese maple varieties that have been described in the literature for at least several hundred years. Many of these plants are still available today and are thought by experts to be accurate examples of 'ancient' cultivars. Scions of cultivars are grafted on specie rootstock to maintain the variety. It seems like rootstock doesnt effect the characteristics passed along. I dont think there are any Japanese maple cultivars that come true from seed. I think these plants were asexually propagated from the get with each new variety being a desirable mutation or hybrid.

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Phenotype does not equal genotype. Most mutations you wouldn't even notice. And yes, while "genetic drift" refers to populations as does the term "evolution", in plants meristem genomic changes are significant factors in genetic drift of the population and the introduction of the inheritable type. No one here ever said we're talking in terms of a single plant. All plants do this! Lol Hence, yeah... genetic drift because we're talking about lots of plants.

Meristem genetic mutations may not play as much of a part in genetic change compared to sexual reproduction, but it certainly does have a significant influence.

Edit: I've been thinking of the most significant factor in the science of evolution, and it's that the allele frequency of a population increases over time when there's good times, and the environment is stable.

Then something bad happens. You know, climate change or maybe a zombie apocalypse. Who knows, but environmental conditions change or the mix of predators in your area. Then evolution happens in like a very short time period, even in years. The genetics of that population can radically change even overnight with a sudden catastrophe.

Northwood said:

Phenotype does not equal genotype. Most mutations you wouldn't even notice. And yes, while "genetic drift" refers to populations as does the term "evolution", in plants meristem genomic changes are significant factors in genetic drift of the population and the introduction of the inheritable type. No one here ever said we're talking in terms of a single plant. All plants do this! Lol Hence, yeah... genetic drift because we're talking about lots of plants.

Meristem genetic mutations may not play as much of a part in genetic change compared to sexual reproduction, but it certainly does have a significant influence.

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Ya, i was more commenting on my own idea of what the term meant.
So what type of action would initiate a genetic level type of response in meristem cells?

If a grower were to graft a light yielding cannabis variety onto the root stock of a heavy yielding variety would cuttings from this plant include influence from the root stock? I dont expect you to know this just very curious about how much of the past is actually carried forward.

radiant Rudy said:

I just learned that the term "genetic drift" refers to the dynamics of a population rather than the effect of successive asexual generations of a particular plant. What type changes in the meristem happen over time?

im curious about which characteristics can be made stable indefinitely and whether variation over time is the same for clones of woody plants as it might be for clones of annuals.

A point was raised earlier about Japanese maple varieties that have been described in the literature for at least several hundred years. Many of these plants are still available today and are thought by experts to be accurate examples of 'ancient' cultivars. Scions of cultivars are grafted on specie rootstock to maintain the variety. It seems like rootstock doesnt effect the characteristics passed along. I dont think there are any Japanese maple cultivars that come true from seed. I think these plants were asexually propagated from the get with each new variety being a desirable mutation or hybrid.

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I think so, yes, if you're suggesting the seeds or cuttings from a grafted cultivar will be different than the parent / parents?

Apples and a few Australian Native cultivars are some I can think of.
Often on graftings, any new shoots from the root stocks are continuously removed. Because it'll be the same plant as the root stock.
Same time, some colours / variety in flowers and fruit, is only achieved through graftings.

I'm fairly sure what you're implying about maple is sound.

radiant Rudy said:

Ya, i was more commenting on my own idea of what the term meant.
So what type of action would initiate a genetic level type of response in meristem cells?

If a grower were to graft a light yielding cannabis variety onto the root stock of a heavy yielding variety would cuttings from this plant include influence from the root stock? I dont expect you to know this just very curious about how much of the past is actually carried forward.

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I don't think it really would theoretically, no. The cutting would be the same as the cut used.

If the same grafting seeded on the other hand, then the genetics would be different.
There'll be a little bit of both. Whether through sexual, or asexual reproduction.

radiant Rudy said:

Ya, i was more commenting on my own idea of what the term meant.
So what type of action would initiate a genetic level type of response in meristem cells?

If a grower were to graft a light yielding cannabis variety onto the root stock of a heavy yielding variety would cuttings from this plant include influence from the root stock? I dont expect you to know this just very curious about how much of the past is actually carried forward.

Click to expand...

No, a root stock will not transfer its genetics to one attached to it. Although you can think of grafting as a type of "joining of compatible genetics", that's all it is. The cellular structures in one don't affect the other as far as I've ever heard or read, but I could be wrong though about the current science. Science is progressing so quickly now, that so much of what I knew about plants and soil biology was deprecated a long time ago when I graduated in 1988. LOL

Honestly it's hard to keep up after you turn 60!

Some more information I could find on the difference here:

Aussieaceae said:

Some more information I could find on the difference here:

The Difference Between Seedling, Grafted and Cutting Grown Fruit Trees

Fruit trees naturally reproduce themselves from seeds, but most fruit trees that you buy are not produced that way for very good reasons. There are many ways to propagate fruit trees, and each meth…

www.google.com

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Of course the genotype of a cutting or graft will be much closer to the parent plant and what you expect than the combined parents of sexual reproduction. But that doesn't mean that normal cell division in the meristem is perfect. It never is and never will be. And with fucking around with the genetics of this plant by humans during the last 3,000 or so years, cannabis has become a very difficult plant to understand in natural terms of conventional taxonomy. Like rats, it's made a partnership with humans for a very long time. lol

It's a bloody good question to be honest @radiant Rudy. One i'm not completely sure of myself.

Going to suggest myself, that the expression of the grafting, is only achievable through another identical grafting. And the same genetic expression cannot be easily achievable through cross breeding the parents.

Whilst also i recognize the root stock and grafted cutting will be essentially a clone of another.

Question is, is the genetic expression of two grafted parents only an expression due to the grafting?
I would assume it is.
But I do wonder if the same expression affects the genetics of future seeds. Especially if asexually reproduced?
I'm going to suggest that it theoretically wouldn't.
I think it would mostly depend on the genetics of the cutting used to graft.
The seeds will likely be entirely different, than if you crossed the two parents through pollination.

Only speculation though and I am not qualified enough to say otherwise.
It's a damn good question.

This whole thread has been fascinating. A little over my head though. But see if I have this right. If I grow a plant that produces great smoke.
I would do better to clone than to buy more of those seeds...right? Feminized or regular, there is no guarantee I'll get the same quality seed especially if I change seed suppliers. Or no.

Don't Bogart said:

This whole thread has been fascinating. A little over my head though. But see if I have this right. If I grow a plant that produces great smoke.
I would do better to clone than to buy more of those seeds...right? Feminized or regular, there is no guarantee I'll get the same quality seed especially if I change seed suppliers. Or no.

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Exactly. Even seeds that were asexually produced can/will have some level of variation. The only way way to keep it identical is by cloning.

SpawnOfVader said:

Even seeds that were asexually produced can/will have some level of variation.

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Right. The seeds will be able to release some genetic variant. Where clones cannot.
Mendel's peas.