Do Americans Owe Service to the Nation?

ViRedd · Oct 30, 2007

Do Americans Owe Service to the Nation?

[FONT=Arial,Geneva,sans-serif]by [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Geneva,sans-serif]Sheldon Richman[/FONT], [FONT=Arial,Geneva,sans-serif]September 17, 2007[/FONT]

[FONT=Times,Times New Roman]Why does the idea of national service never cease to attract American intellectuals? Every few years some prominent thinker proposes that young Americans serve their country in either a civilian or military capacity. Such service is always promised to have a profound effect on both the nation and the people doing the serving. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times,Times New Roman]The latest example comes from Time magazine managing editor Richard Stengel. In his September 10 cover article, A Time to Serve, Stengel laments a lack of involvement in civic life by Americans. Too many people do nothing more than vote and pay taxes, he says. Well of course they pay taxes. They are threatened with prison if they dont. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times,Times New Roman]Stengel is convinced that if the republic is to survive, young people must serve. He cites the Founders as authorities on the need to exert effort in order to keep the republic, but he is on somewhat weak ground here. There are Founders and then there are Founders. The Founders known as the Anti-Federalists thought that the way to keep a republic is to have 13 small ones joined in a confederation, not a big consolidated one. In a large nation people would have a hard time keeping an eye on the government, and the resulting lack of eternal vigilance would be dangerous to liberty. Thus its ironic for Stengel to be looking to Washington to lead the effort to preserve the republic. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times,Times New Roman]But the historical point aside, why is it thought appropriate that people should be either forced or bribed to perform national service as defined by politicians? To his credit, Stengel doesnt want to compel people to perform the tasks he deems service. How thoughtful. However, the taxpayers would be forced to finance his program, so it would not be fully voluntary. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times,Times New Roman]Stengel is not merely urging people to do good deeds in an organized way, say, to join groups to teach poor kids to read or to clean up their communities. He is talking about service to the Nation. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times,Times New Roman]But where do people get the idea that the Nation is something to be served? Despite Stengels invocation of the Founders, this is a profoundly un-American concept. Its far more consistent with the European despotism of the first half of the twentieth century. You dont have to look hard to find quotations by Mussolini (dare I mention Hitler?) about the duty of the individual to serve the Nation. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times,Times New Roman]To call this idea un-American is no mere polemical device. It is a literal truth. Service to the Nation is a mystical notion. Its advocates reify the abstraction nation and call on us to sacrifice for it. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times,Times New Roman]This is not what most Americans thought at the time of the founding. In the classical liberal philosophy held by many people in the late eighteenth century (inspired by John Locke), society, nation, and country were concepts indicating peoples living together to enjoy life, liberty, and property in collective security. These were important conveniences that permitted individual persons to live fully as human beings. They were means, not ends in themselves. The Nation was not something to serve. An idea like that can get you killed in a far-off imperial war. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times,Times New Roman]This is far from what Stengel has in mind. He writes,

But at this moment in our history, 220 years after the Constitutional Convention, the way to get citizens involved in civic life, the way to create a common culture that will make a virtue of our diversity, the way to give us that more capacious sense of we finally, the way to keep the Republic is universal national service.... It is the simple but compelling idea that devoting a year or more to national service, whether military or civilian, should become a countrywide rite of passage, the common expectation and widespread experience of virtually every young American.

In the land of the free, the state should not be pushing people into service, creating a common culture, or giving them a sense of we. That Stengel believes this is a proper function of the government shows how far removed he is from the philosophy the first Americans embraced. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times,Times New Roman]Sheldon Richman is senior fellow at The Future of Freedom Foundation, author of Tethered Citizens: Time to Repeal the Welfare State, and editor of The Freeman[/FONT] magazine. Visit his blog Free Association at www.sheldonrichman.com. Send him email.

iblazethatkush · Oct 30, 2007

War is made for profit. Why would u die to make the rich men behind the war richer? That' the dumbest question i've ever heard.

SEganja · Oct 30, 2007

i agree that national service should not be forced, but shouldn't one be compelled by ones morals to help a neighbor or assist the poor? As a good human being a person should feel the need to help thoes around oneself, not forced, that's how revolutions start.

then again that could only be realized in a perfect world without greed and prejudice.

7xstall · Oct 31, 2007

that Stengel guy has lost his marbles. voluntarily committing to exemplary citizenship would do infinitely more good than mandatory government servitude of any duration. his idea of a "rite of passage" sounds like a marketing hook from the islamofascist recruiting manual.

.

medicineman · Oct 31, 2007

Along these lines, how do you feel about the pledge of allegiance, isn't this another brainwash by the US government. I think my grandkids should not be subjected to this brainwash. The flag is nothing more than a piece of cloth designating this nations difference from all other nations flags. When flown at the United nations, it is but one of hundreds of flags flown in the breeze. I have no allegiance to a piece of cloth, maybe a really old pair of my levis, but not the US flag.

7xstall · Oct 31, 2007

medicineman said:
Along these lines, how do you feel about the pledge of allegiance, isn't this another brainwash by the US government. I think my grandkids should not be subjected to this brainwash. The flag is nothing more than a piece of cloth designating this nations difference from all other nations flags. When flown at the United nations, it is but one of hundreds of flags flown in the breeze. I have no allegiance to a piece of cloth, maybe a really old pair of my levis, but not the US flag.

yes, i think it's a pointless, brainwash thing when it's done out of habit but it's not bad to affirm the pledge when you mean it. i just wish schools would really commit to patriotism and make the students memorize parts of the constitution, at least the bill of rights.

.

ViRedd · Oct 31, 2007

The last paragraph in the article states:

"In the land of the free, the state should not be pushing people into service, creating a common culture, or giving them a sense of “we.” That Stengel believes this is a proper function of the government shows how far removed he is from the philosophy the first Americans embraced.

And Stengel isn't alone in this type of thinking. He and many of his fellow Americans are of this belief and its been instilled into their minds by our public institutions, our statist politicians from both the left and the right, and the general "modern" thought that all good comes from government. Modern Americans have embrased the Nanny State. If you all remember, when Bill Clinton was president, he kept referring to We The People as "customers" of government. This type of thinking is so far removed from what real Americanism is all about, its not even funny.

Vi

NoCash · Oct 31, 2007

SEganja said:
shouldn't one be compelled by ones morals to help a neighbor or assist the poor?

Yes. And these kinds of things are completely do-able without working for the government. Food Not Bombs has nothing to do with the government, yet they feed the homeless and hungry. People just need to realise that they can organise beneficial services to the community without Uncle Sam.

7xstall said:
i just wish schools would really commit to patriotism and make the students memorize parts of the constitution, at least the bill of rights.

Students should definitely know their rights. But teaching patriotism? What is patriotism, anyways? All the patriot types these days are just nationalists. And what is nationalism? It's not love of the land. Nobody can tell where America ends and Canada begins just by looking at the land; it doesn't suddenly change on the other side of the invisible line. It's not love of the citizens, because Americans are seriously divided into classes of age, race, class, orientation, religion, and even sex to such a degree that they cannot empathize with one another. It's not love of the culture, because "American culture" is extremely varied and is not solely what is seen on TV. I think it's nothing more than love for a system of government and nearly unconditional support for it's actions and opinions.

Even when people call themselves patriots and oppose the government's actions to some extent, you still find the unsavory trait of elitism - they think that they are somehow better, stronger, more just than other people because they just so happened to be born in the US. Is this really something we want to teach to the kids?

medicineman · Oct 31, 2007

ViRedd said:
The last paragraph in the article states:

"In the land of the free, the state should not be pushing people into service, creating a common culture, or giving them a sense of “we.” That Stengel believes this is a proper function of the government shows how far removed he is from the philosophy the first Americans embraced.

And Stengel isn't alone in this type of thinking. He and many of his fellow Americans are of this belief and its been instilled into their minds by our public institutions, our statist politicians from both the left and the right, and the general "modern" thought that all good comes from government. Modern Americans have embrased the Nanny State. If you all remember, when Bill Clinton was president, he kept referring to We The People as "customers" of government. This type of thinking is so far removed from what real Americanism is all about, its not even funny.

Vi

You see VI, your view of real Americanism comes from a priveledged stance. It is fine to espouse all these wonderful theories and philosophies when you have multitudes of money and priveledge. Try telling this to inner city dwellers that are scraping out a living on the dregs of society, tell this to a single mother that only makes enough to survive with no hope of ever getting above the fray, tell this to all those people that live in them thar hills, the real paupers in the society and you know what you'll hear, Hey Buddy, can you help me out of this dillema, do you really give a shit, or are you just going back to your big house and closing the door so you can go on the internet and espouse all the wonderful things about constitutional America, something we neither know or care about. where is our next meal coming from, tell us that and we'll listen. Here's the dillema. We have 250 million dogs and only 100 million bones.

ViRedd · Oct 31, 2007

Bullshit Med. That's nothing but class envy retoric. America is still the land of opportunity. No other society outproduces the American society. People are literally dying to get into this country because of the opportunities it affords. People start out with nothing in this country and reach unbelievable goals. You constantly paint a negative picture of poverty, hunger, strife and hopelessness. Go check out a copy of Steinbeck's "Grapes of Wrath" for God's sake.

Vi

medicineman · Oct 31, 2007

ViRedd said:
Bullshit Med. That's nothing but class envy retoric. America is still the land of opportunity. No other society outproduces the American society. People are literally dying to get into this country because of the opportunities it affords. People start out with nothing in this country and reach unbelievable goals. You constantly paint a negative picture of poverty, hunger, strife and hopelessness. Go check out a copy of Steinbeck's "Grapes of Wrath" for God's sake.

Vi

250 million dogs and 100 million bones, thats the truth.

ViRedd · Oct 31, 2007

medicineman said:
250 million dogs and 100 million bones, thats the truth.

Nice slogan Med but not true at all. The wealth pie is ever expanding in this country. Regardless of status, income, race or religion, if one applies one's self, one can succeed in this country without being on the government dole.

Being broke is temporary. Poverty is a state of mind.

Vi

medicineman · Oct 31, 2007

ViRedd said:
Nice slogan Med but not true at all. The wealth pie is ever expanding in this country. Regardless of status, income, race or religion, if one applies one's self, one can succeed in this country without being on the government dole.

Being broke is temporary. Poverty is a state of mind.

Vi

Well said by a rich person, this is the way rich pricks think. The world is one big apple with riches for all, bullshit. The middle class is taking it up the arse, you should know with all the foreclosures happening. At my wifes church, there are so many people losing their homes that the preacher is having a special prayer vigil for them. You rich dicks think there is plenty of money for everyone, that is probably true if the rich dickheads gave up their hoarding ways, but no, they sit on their piles of money and spout rhetorical bullshit like the world is one big apple and there are bites for everyone. When someone like myself brings it to general attention, we are labeled commies and socialist infiltrators, lazy assholes trying to get a free ride. It's like this ,isn't it VI, I've got mine, fuck you.

closet.cult · Oct 31, 2007

ViRedd said:
Nice slogan Med but not true at all. The wealth pie is ever expanding in this country. Regardless of status, income, race or religion, if one applies one's self, one can succeed in this country without being on the government dole.

true.

ViRedd said:
Being broke is temporary. Poverty is a state of mind.

Vi

this is very untrue.

Poverty is much, much harder then you think to break free of. It can be done if you are a kid taught VERY young to reach for college and career and to work your ass off BEFORE you get into a relationship or have kids. But this message is NOT taught, stressed and drilled into children by their parents and teachers the way you think it must be.

And that's just scratching the surface of the problem with poverty. Basically, you have to work your mutha fucking, starving for food, son of a bitch, poor ass off to get out of poverty. And if you fucked up and got a girl pregnant and wish to do the right thing for her and the kid, you fucking screwed.

Not one program by the government gets you out of poverty. They are there to help keep you from starving to death, and they don't always work at that.

Basically, you don't know a thing about poverty. That statement "Poverty is a state of mind' is the most rediculous, ignorant and not to mention heartless comment I've heard in a long time. This is not a personal attack, but don't talk about things you don't know about. I do.

ViRedd · Oct 31, 2007

Closet sez ...

"Basically, you don't know a thing about poverty. That statement "Poverty is a state of mind' is the most rediculous, ignorant and not to mention heartless comment I've heard in a long time. This is not a personal attack, but don't talk about things you don't know about. I do."

And just like the misdirected Med, you're making assumptions about me without knowing one iota about my background. You are talking to a person who had his first full time job at the age of twelve. You are talking to a person who fished under piers at the age of eight, then peddled the fish on his bicycle for a nickle apeice. You are talking to someone who sold the Sunday newspapers door to door at seven in the morning every Sunday as a kid for two years. You are talking to someone who built his own shoeshine box and shined shoes to get the money for the movies on Saturday. You are talking to someone who never belonged to a union, never collected unemployment or asked anyone for a stinkin' dime without working for it. You are talking to someone who was raised by a single Mom who worked full time to put clothes on my back while I fended for myself. You are talking to someone who had a positive work ethic instilled in him by a mother who also never asked for a dime she didn't earn. What I do to earn a living now, 99% of the American population would fail at because they just wouldn't have the balls to do it. You are talking to someone who, over the past 32 years, has not had an employer paid vacation, medical insurance or sick leave. That's right junior ... I pay my own way and always have.

Now then, with all of that said, I DO agree with much of what you posted. While the opportunities do exist, America doesn't GUARANTEE success for anyone. And that's the way it should be in a free country. Any country that guarantees a certain level of success for some, HAS to limit the success of others. And that's not freedom. While it may be the ideal for you and Med ... its not for me. I'll take the country as is, where I (and others) can make what I can make of it, over the soft belly of socialism every time.

Bill Cosby has stated the path out of poverty very well. If you haven't heard of it, here's his speech addressed to the NAACP:

American Rhetoric: Bill Cosby - Address at the NAACP's Commemoration of the 50th of Brown v. Board of Education

If after reading the speech, you still think my statement that "poverty is a state of mind" is bullshit ... well so be it. Your thinking, and the like thinking of others is not my fault.

Vi

NoCash · Oct 31, 2007

ViRedd said:
America is still the land of opportunity. No other society outproduces the American society. People are literally dying to get into this country because of the opportunities it affords.

A high quantity of goods produced does not necessarily equal a high standard of life for the majority. I'll admit that relative to much of the world, America has high standards, especially when you compare the US to a third world country. But we still throw away tons (literally) of food while people go hungry both here and abroad. Also, you need to ask yourself exactly why the third world countries are so far behind. They have suffered immense losses as a result of being what basically amounts to colonies for wealthy countries like the US to flood with all of our many, many goods. The only people winning are at the top, and it's getting harder and harder to get there.

ViRedd said:
You are talking to someone who, over the past 32 years, has not had an employer paid vacation, medical insurance or sick leave. That's right junior ... I pay my own way and always have.

Nothing wrong with a strong work ethic. However, the corporations and billionaires of the US do not share this work ethic. They depend upon people like you to work as hard as possible for as little as possible. Perhaps that's why you have never enjoyed a paid vacation from work, the peace of mind that comes with medical insurance, or sick leave so that you can maintain your health. You think the billionaires can say the same? Do you think they care if you get hurt and face sky-high medical bills? Do you think that as an honest, hard-working person, you deserve these things?

I think you do. And if you don't, then they've definitely won. They've made fortunes at your expense, sunbathing on the beach while you were shining shoes. But, they deserve it, right? Great work ethic there.

ViRedd · Oct 31, 2007

NoCash ...

I hardly know where to begin ... so I'll begin at the beginning:

We've discussed the plight of the third world countries many times here in the forum. I like to use the examples of San Diego and Mexico. What causes the immense change as you travel south through San Diego then across the Mexican border? Also, I like to use the example comparison between East and West Germany during the Cold War. What was the cause of prosperity in the West and abject poverty in the East? Both of these scenarios should answer your question as to why third world countries are so far behind. Its because of their economic and governmental systems. That's it, period. You've admitted that we produce so much food that we can literally throw it away. Would you prefer a system like Mexico or East Germany where we would starve? Hell man, we even provide school children with free breakfasts and lunches.

Your top/down theory doesn't hold water either. In Mexico the few plunder the many. All the wealth is held by a few elite families. Here, everyone plunders everyone. In America plunder is an equal opportunity employer. ~lol~

On your corporations taking advantage of me: No way, Jose' ... I'm an independent contractor. I work for myself. As an independent contractor, I pay my own way ... I pay for my vacations, I pay for my health care and I pay for my sick leave. And yes, I do deserve these things ... but not at someone else's expense. I have no boss dictating to me other than the one true boss of us all ... the wonderful person called Mister and Mrs. Customer. As an independent contractor, I can serve Mr. and Mrs. Customer as many hours a day and as many days a week as I want to. I can limit my income or expand it at will. I give myself my own raises just by turning up the dial on effort. I like it that way ... no overbearing bosses to contend with. No corporate political ladder to climb. If I don't like you, I don't have to do business with you. If I really like you, I can cut my prices to the bone for you. If I do a great job for you, I can ask for referrals with confidence ... and you'll be glad to refer your friends to me. Why not?

The problem with thinking like Med's, Closet's and your's is that it is negative thinking. With a negative attitude one will always see the glass as half empty, the economy as bad and the breaks in life going against you. The key is to find out what other people need and then try to fill that need. Success comes from helping other people get what THEY want. As a result, you will get what you want in return. Life's nothing more than an echo my friend.

Vi

SEganja · Oct 31, 2007

You people are fighting an age's old battle, Rich vs. Poor, Wealth and Privledge over Poverty a Labor. Hope you guys have the jaw bones to go for lets say a few hundred years of debate? that's how old a beat out your arguments are.

Taking a look at econimics over history compared with geneology one would easily recognize the randomness of being born in to poverty v. property. people's grandparents may have been dirt poor but they may have an income well above poverty and vice versa.

The real question is what has the science of economics really given us? Ever since people "evolved"(lack of a better word here) past a bartering economy what has any many truly "made for himself from nothing". jack shit.

So in essence, life sucks and maybe one day a lucky light may shine on you but until then be kind to your neighbors, don't always trust that property will be there and never give up hope that if property isn't there that it will never be there. Time is to constant for any variable to overcome it.

closet.cult · Nov 1, 2007

ViRedd said:
Closet sez ...

"Basically, you don't know a thing about poverty. That statement "Poverty is a state of mind' is the most rediculous, ignorant and not to mention heartless comment I've heard in a long time. This is not a personal attack, but don't talk about things you don't know about. I do."

And just like the misdirected Med, you're making assumptions about me without knowing one iota about my background. You are talking to a person who had his first full time job at the age of twelve. You are talking to a person who fished under piers at the age of eight, then peddled the fish on his bicycle for a nickle apeice. You are talking to someone who sold the Sunday newspapers door to door at seven in the morning every Sunday as a kid for two years. You are talking to someone who built his own shoeshine box and shined shoes to get the money for the movies on Saturday. You are talking to someone who never belonged to a union, never collected unemployment or asked anyone for a stinkin' dime without working for it. You are talking to someone who was raised by a single Mom who worked full time to put clothes on my back while I fended for myself. You are talking to someone who had a positive work ethic instilled in him by a mother who also never asked for a dime she didn't earn. What I do to earn a living now, 99% of the American population would fail at because they just wouldn't have the balls to do it. You are talking to someone who, over the past 32 years, has not had an employer paid vacation, medical insurance or sick leave. That's right junior ... I pay my own way and always have.

Now then, with all of that said, I DO agree with much of what you posted. While the opportunities do exist, America doesn't GUARANTEE success for anyone. And that's the way it should be in a free country. Any country that guarantees a certain level of success for some, HAS to limit the success of others. And that's not freedom. While it may be the ideal for you and Med ... its not for me. I'll take the country as is, where I (and others) can make what I can make of it, over the soft belly of socialism every time.

Bill Cosby has stated the path out of poverty very well. If you haven't heard of it, here's his speech addressed to the NAACP:

American Rhetoric: Bill Cosby - Address at the NAACP's Commemoration of the 50th of Brown v. Board of Education

If after reading the speech, you still think my statement that "poverty is a state of mind" is bullshit ... well so be it. Your thinking, and the like thinking of others is not my fault.

Vi

I applaud all your hard work in your life. Because it is the only way out of poverty. Unfortunately, I still disagree with your statement. Because millions of white, blacks and other minorities in THIS country work their fucking asses off and still live in poverty. Working hard does not guarantee a way out of poverty. It worked for you and I but others are not capable either physically or mentally to achieve what you or I can. That is why poverty is not a state of mind. It is a state of life…for many. And the majority will not pull themselves out of it. They will resign to making the best of it and hope the best for their children.

I think your mistake is assuming that others are as capable as you are, mentally. There's working hard and then there's working smart, you know.

BTW: i read Cosby's speech. It was very true but those are not the people I am talking about. I am talking about the true underprevilaged folks, like my poor family and the many others I knew growing up who worked very hard literally just to put food on the table. there was no buying $40 shoes. no saving money, there wasn't any money for extras.

Bill isn't even talking about poverty. he's talking about the poor parenting that occures in poverty. these are two different dilemas.

medicineman · Nov 1, 2007

Again I stick with my premise, 250 Million dogs, 100 million bones. The rest eat shit. Just because VI is a workaholic and has "Made it" He thinks everyone can do it. Not everyone has the drive or the opportunities that VI had. This arguement that we need to import labor is such bullshit. What needs to happen is the employers need to pay a living wage, then Americans would gladly do the work. We've heard your rags to riches story VI, and look what it has done to you. Made you a selfish old curmudgeon with no heart or soul. A person that thinks everyone that cares about the poverty stricken is pushing communism. I'll take my humanity over his souless miserlyness anytime.

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