Dim LEDs near harvest ?

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
View attachment 4006495

Any spectrum graph I've ever seen for white leds drops off to 0 at around 410nm
Then why does the scale go down to 380 and all those lines taper off towards the edge?

But I digress . . . Using an intensity graph to try to prove there is no UV spectra is a little disingenuous (as anyone can interpret the lines as they please). Even Cree states publicly that it's LEDs "produce virtually no light in the UV or IR spectrums".

That is not "none" and completely aligns with what I said.

If I use a 48 hr dark period, I get bud rot every time.. Now I chop after the normal 12 hr dark period..
Then you don't have enough ventilation and/or humidity control. Sorry, but it's as simple as that.

As for those who have tried it and believe there was no benefit, at least you have tried it and have a position on which to base your comments.

Once upon a time, LED manufacturers and other proponents said "Plants are green - you don't need green light to grow plants . . ." And yet, there it is in sunlight: and as it turns out, green light is one of the most efficient spectra in driving deep photosynthesis.

If you don't think UV radiation has a part to play in photosynthesis or glandular production in cannabis, then c'est lie vie. But Mother Nature knows more about this stuff that you do, and that is how plants evolved. Even intervention by man through selective breeding has really only combined genes that were already present in those original land races.
 

KonopCh

Well-Known Member
I personally have never noticed any improvement in quality or other benefits from an extended dark period before harvest (I've tried it many times with different strains over the last 13 years of growing) but to each his own...
Yes, correct. Plant in her life get through 50+ night dark periods, how can someone think that the last day will bring trichomes out more than previous periods? Stupid.
 

nfhiggs

Well-Known Member
Yes, correct. Plant in her life get through 50+ night dark periods, how can someone think that the last day will bring trichomes out more than previous periods? Stupid.
Closer to 100-120 dark periods, but yeah, you're correct. Its Bro science at its finest.
 

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
You flower for 120 days? That's some strain!

Yes, correct. Plant in her life get through 50+ night dark periods, how can someone think that the last day will bring trichomes out more than previous periods? Stupid.
Because each dark period is followed by an intense period of radiation, which breaks down those same organic compounds.

It's not that hard to understand.

BTW, the theory goes back before most of you were born.

In the 1970s, Dr Carleton Turner at the University of Mississippi found that there was a variation in the amount of THC in a sample, depending upon the time that the plant was taken. The most potent point was just before dawn after nighttime darkness.

Then, in 2000, Dr Paul Mahlberg of Indiana University showed that THC was produced extracellularly, on the inside of the glandular membrane, which would allow for its daily recycling.
Ed Rosenthal - you "bros" have probably never heard of him.
 
Last edited:

nfhiggs

Well-Known Member
You flower for 120 days? That's some strain!


Because each dark period is followed by an intense period of radiation, which breaks down those same organic compounds.

It's not that hard to understand.

BTW, the theory goes back before most of you were born.



Ed Rosenthal - you "bros" have probably never heard of him.
And that does NOT imply an extended period of darkness is beneficial Just that harvesting should be done first thing in the "morning"
 

Photon Flinger

Well-Known Member
You are growing plants, not raising a child. Quit being so emotional and treat them like they are in the military.

Dim, no. Reduce lights on, yes. More nap time for quicker harvest.

UV discussion, quit trying to use UVB and instead use UVA. It works great. Kills little critters and keeps SIP reses from turning into an algae pond. Only need a few watts and it is cheap, LED 335-410nm aren't like 280-315nm in cost.

If you want to try before you buy, get a UV bug zapper and run it along your light period for flower.
 

BobCajun

Well-Known Member
I use 24 hours dark at the end, to burn off all stored starch. Makes a less harsh product. I have an article that says "Haney and Kutscheid (1973) demonstrated that wild hemp populations in Illinois were highest in cannabinoids when stressed, either by nutrient limitations or by drought, although shading did not have any measurable effect." That leads me to believe that dimming lights or prolonged darkness may not be helpful. However, reducing the hours of light would save power and probably aid ripening. Like on the last week or so, reduce by 1/2 hour per day. By the end you'll be down to 8-9 hour days. Granted not a huge saving in power but if it's a large grow it might be significant. Or could just drop it right to 8-10 hours for the whole last week, but would sacrifice more weight,
 
Last edited:

WeedSexWeightsShakes

Well-Known Member
I use 24 hours dark at the end, to burn off all stored starch. Makes a less harsh product. I have an article that says "Haney and Kutscheid (1973) demonstrated that wild hemp populations in Illinois were highest in cannabinoids when stressed, either by nutrient limitations or by drought, although shading did not have any measurable effect." That leads me to believe that dimming lights or prolonged darkness may not be helpful. However, reducing the hours of light would save power and probably aid ripening. Like on the last week or so, reduce by 1/2 hour per day. By the end you'll be down to 8-9 hour days. Granted not a huge saving in power but if it's a large grow it might be significant. Or could just drop it right to 8-10 hours for the whole last week, but would sacrifice more weight,
I've been doing 10/14 from the start. With QBs I bet you could get away with 8/16 from the start?
 

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
Try rereading the original post I replied to:
"Plant in her life get through 50+ night dark periods"
You tried to correct the person above you who correctly identified the approximate number of dark days (during flowering) when trichomes are produced. Why you think the vegetative period influences thrichome production, I have no idea.

And that does NOT imply an extended period of darkness is beneficial Just that harvesting should be done first thing in the "morning"
You don't really see the logic, do you "Bro"? That's OK. Here's a hint: Why are THC levels highest at the end of the dark period before dawn?

You do know when the original university study was done in 1970, pretty much all cannabis production was limited to outdoors and greenhouses - the indoor revolution had not yet started. The dark period could not be extended outside.

So there was probably a good 13-14 hours of dark before the dawn in Oxford Mississippi where those greenhouse tests were done on that particular day in autumn.

And what it proves is, the longer the dark period, the higher the THC concentration . . . up to point.

Where is that point?

Well, there have been more recent studies, and if you look for them, you will see quotes from the Stitching Institute of Medical Marijuana that claims to be the first dispensary of medical cannabis to pharmacies in Holland. I'm not here to verify those claims, but I find one of their quotes very interesting:

The Stichting Institute of Medical Marijuana (SIMM). . . has been investigating the medical possibilities of cannabis, together with TNO laboratories and the University of Leiden.

One of their discoveries has been that to keep the ripe plants in the dark before harvesting could increase their potency. SIMM's growers separated a crop of mature plants, harvested half of them and kept the other half in absolute darkness for 72 hours before cutting and drying. Analysis of the resulting dried buds showed that some varieties had seen an increase of THC of up to 30%, while CBD and CBN remained the same.
Now I, myself, am a little dubious of the 30% claim - though that is only for "some varieties" that were probably coming off a low base - but it has been common for indoor growers to extend their dark periods before harvest for as long as I've been indoor growing (15 years) and longer, and many (such as myself) are happy enough with the results to continue doing it.
 

Enigma

Well-Known Member
What about using all blue light for the flowering transition?

What about blue light for the ripening?

Say, use double the light in red for four weeks in the middle and two weeks at the beginning and two weeks at the end in blue.

I've noticed differences in red and blue light with this process. Now I'm testing to see if I can save some money on half of my flowering cycle.

Your thoughts?
 

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
I use 24 hours dark at the end, to burn off all stored starch. Makes a less harsh product. I have an article that says "Haney and Kutscheid (1973) demonstrated that wild hemp populations in Illinois were highest in cannabinoids when stressed, either by nutrient limitations or by drought, although shading did not have any measurable effect." That leads me to believe that dimming lights or prolonged darkness may not be helpful.
Shade is not the same as dark (photoperiod), mate. But you are correct that the plant uses up its starch reserves during the dark period when it is converting stored energy.

Also, individual trichomes are going to ripen regardless of light cycle once they have formed on the plant. By reducing the photoperiod at the end of the cycle you may save power, but you're also going to hasten the end of the plant's flowering cycle (senescence) and lose yield (if it has not already come to the end of its cycle).

Different strains have different length flowering cycles - as you know - so there's really no point reducing light either before or after senescence. In fact, some sativas will flower almost indefinitely as long as you continue giving them a 12-hour dark period. In such cases, yes, you can reduce the photoperiod to hasten senescence - or you could just harvest when you feel it is the right time, as there comes a point of diminishing returns where the plant continues to produce new flowers, but the old flowers start to degrade and lose potency as the cycle perpetuates.

A lot of the things being suggested here (reduce photoperiods etc) have been tried by many growers over many years already. But there's nothing wrong with experimentation, as it's sometimes the best way to learn what works for you and what doesn't.
 

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
What about using all blue light for the flowering transition?

What about blue light for the ripening?

Say, use double the light in red for four weeks in the middle and two weeks at the beginning and two weeks at the end in blue.

I've noticed differences in red and blue light with this process. Now I'm testing to see if I can save some money on half of my flowering cycle.

Your thoughts?
My thoughts are these: why would anyone try to save money on power if it impacts yield? It is only going to cost you more in the long run.

There is a law of diminishing returns which says you can add more light, but you won't get more yield - the plant can only photosynthesise so much (it can also be counterproductive by inducing heat/light radiation stress). What you are trying to achieve is to make your grow as efficient as possible, so that your plants have enough light but - most importantly - you make use of all available light (energy) that you produce as a grower. That means even light distribution, maintaining plant health, and - the most important factor - maintaining your root zone. An efficient root system is the key to fast growth - which is why aeroponics > NFT > DWC > coco > soil etc.

But here's the kicker: you want reliability.

An advanced aeroponic system will kick just about any other system's arse. But it must be maintained properly, which means checking for nutrient blocked misters, drains, pump pressures and optimum timing cycles etc.

One pump failure, and you potentially lose your entire crop. Aeroponics doesn't look so good after that, does it?

I have had pump failures. I have had timer failures. I have had power failures. I have had most failures! Which is why I eventually switched to coco run-to-waste using organic nutrients. A pump failure in coco still gives you a fighting chance, as the coco media retains moisture and there is a good chance you discover the failure before your plants die. Organic-based nutrients have always produced the best results for me and, anecdotally, my friends all say it tastes better.

But I digress . . . Back to your original question. What you are proposing has been done in the HID world using a mixture of MH and HPS. I used to do it myself, vegging under MH, then running MH the first two weeks of flowering to reduce stretch, then adding HPS - using a ratio of about 2:1 HPS:MH - and then finishing the plants off with HPS.

It comes down to two factors: do you have the time to mess around with all this? And if so, do not ever think that spectrum > total light. It isn't. You want your plant to have as much light as it can handle. If the quality of your light is poor, or the spectrum is off for that particular cycle, then you just need more of it.

The trick is certainly tailor your spectrum to the plant cycle, but don't deprive the plant of light intensity in the process.

As a general rule, red light sources such as HPS (which I'm not comparing to LED here) will produce greater flowering yields. This has been proven over and over again. Blue light sources such as MH will reduce internodal length and promote tighter bud structure, but with slightly reduced yields. A combination of the two - and that includes CMH - has been found to be a good compromise. But pure HPS in the last 3/4 of flowering has always proven to produce the best yields.

If you can apply that knowledge to LED growing, then learn from the HID boys who have been dong this a long time. Personally, I believe full spectrum with lots of red and a small amount of UV (A and B) to emulate the autumn/winter sun is what should work best during the full flower cycle.
 

Enigma

Well-Known Member
I've grown with many type of lights before, LEDs are new to me so I'm testing the Vero 3000K and 4000K.

I've noticed blue light in the transition to flower helps me keep plants shorter.

I've also noticed that the strains I've grown swell up in the middle four weeks and it tapers off around the last two weeks to one week.

My experiment is to see if I can switch between these so I'm not wasting light because they are adjustable.

With HID I was stuck with what it was, now I can finally tinker with it.

The strains I'm testing are Herijuana, Cataract Kush and Sour Grape.
 

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
What you note is what I've seen with most 8-week strains - usually that Week 6 period is when they really swell. In the end, I simply stuck with HPS because I grew vertically and actively tried to promote stretch during the first two weeks so the rest of the plant would fill in from top to bottom. It is not the same as a horizontal grow where you want to keep stretch to a minimum and promote an even canopy.

If you have 3000K and 4000K boards, I guess what I'm saying is using all available light at all times (up to the point of heat/light stress) will - in my experience - produce better yields than using half your available light in the first couple of weeks.

Remember, those first two weeks of stretch grow the "bones" on which to hang the buds. That is also the most active time for root growth, which is key to supporting heavy flowering later in the cycle.

The caveat is that by harvest time you haven't overcrowded your grow space and you are not giving your plants more light than they need to the point of stress (a little extra light is better than not enough). If you feel that one board alone in the first two weeks is adequate to promote enough stem and root growth so that after adding the second board you are not sacrificing yield by the end of the grow, then I would try it.

Eventually, you will find what works best for your environment.

P.S. I've read good things about the Heri - Sannie's a decent guy.
 

nfhiggs

Well-Known Member
You tried to correct the person above you who correctly identified the approximate number of dark days (during flowering) when trichomes are produced. Why you think the vegetative period influences thrichome production, I have no idea.
1. I take peoples words at face value, I don't try to figure out what they "meant" rather than what they "said". He said "life of the plant" and I simply corrected that.
2. I never mentioned anything about trichome production during veg did I? No. I simply corrected his "lifetime of nights" number and agreed in principle with what he said. I am willing to admit I could be wrong, I simply have not seen reliable data yet to convince me. All I am hearing so far is anecdotal evidence. I need a bit more than that.
You don't really see the logic, do you "Bro"? That's OK. Here's a hint: Why are THC levels highest at the end of the dark period before dawn?
Obviously levels rise after sunset. But I am not going to automatically assume a continuing rise with an extended night. One does not necessarily follow the other. That's not scientific. For all we know, the levels recover in a few hours of darkness and stabilize. Too much is simply unknown here, and I for one am not simply going to make assumptions. Maybe it (extended night) does something, maybe it does not. Thing that bothers me is that its a simple enough thing to demonstrate that if it does what some claim it does, it would have been easily proven scientifically and well documented.
You do know when the original university study was done in 1970, pretty much all cannabis production was limited to outdoors and greenhouses - the indoor revolution had not yet started. The dark period could not be extended outside.

So there was probably a good 13-14 hours of dark before the dawn in Oxford Mississippi where those greenhouse tests were done on that particular day in autumn.

And what it proves is, the longer the dark period, the higher the THC concentration . . . up to point.

Where is that point?
Exactly. That "point" is a complete unknown. I'd prefer to see actual experimental data from peer reviewed studies before making such assumptions.


Well, there have been more recent studies, and if you look for them, you will see quotes from the Stitching Institute of Medical Marijuana that claims to be the first dispensary of medical cannabis to pharmacies in Holland. I'm not here to verify those claims, but I find one of their quotes very interesting:


Now I, myself, am a little dubious of the 30% claim - though that is only for "some varieties" that were probably coming off a low base - but it has been common for indoor growers to extend their dark periods before harvest for as long as I've been indoor growing (15 years) and longer, and many (such as myself) are happy enough with the results to continue doing it.
Interesting quote to be sure - but that's all it is. I'd prefer to see a link to the actual study if such exists.
 
Last edited:

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
Here's an idea: grow some plants, try it for yourself. You have nothing to lose (you can even let them dry out in their pots during the dark period to further stress the plants in preparation for harvest), and maybe something to gain.

I don't have a gas chromatography-mass spectrometer in my garden shed, but I've given my plants a 48-72 hour dark period before harvest for years and the visible difference is noticeable. At times, I've simply wondered if all I was witnessing was continued ripening of the glands that have turned cloudy (make the plant "look" whiter/more crystally), but it has never hurt yield and has certainly never hurt potency. I've read enough about cannabinoid production during the dark period and degenerative radiation during lights-on to come to the conclusion that it is beneficial - as have many others.

The beauty of these boards is you can think and act as you feel. But to dismiss something as "Bro science" because you don't understand the rational behind it is a bit close-minded, IMO.
 

nfhiggs

Well-Known Member
Here's an idea: grow some plants, try it for yourself. You have nothing to lose (you can even let them dry out in their pots during the dark period to further stress the plants in preparation for harvest), and maybe something to gain.

I don't have a gas chromatography-mass spectrometer in my garden shed, but I've given my plants a 48-72 hour dark period before harvest for years and the visible difference is noticeable. At times, I've simply wondered if all I was witnessing was continued ripening of the glands that have turned cloudy (make the plant "look" whiter/more crystally), but it has never hurt yield and has certainly never hurt potency. I've read enough about cannabinoid production during the dark period and degenerative radiation during lights-on to come to the conclusion that it is beneficial - as have many others.

The beauty of these boards is you can think and act as you feel. But to dismiss something as "Bro science" because you don't understand the rational behind it is a bit close-minded, IMO.
This one will be ready in a couple of weeks:

0907172049.jpg

OK, I'm a fair minded guy - at least I like to think so. You make a fairly reasoned argument, and while I have not seen *convincing* evidence, I'll admit it is somewhat *compelling*. I'll be pulling this plant down in a couple weeks. I will take half the branches in the morning ("dawn") and leave the rest of the plant in darkness until the following morning. I will photograph the buds after I wet trim, then hang them to dry, and I will jar them separately. We will see if there is a visible difference, and after they are cured we will see if my wife can tell the difference in them
 
Top