Defoliation - When and how?

legallyflying said:

I kind of wish I could see what UB wrote but i just discovered the wonderful ignore list function.

Let me guess though.. Condescending piss and vinegar

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Yes exactly that, what an amazing guess lol

bitter old egotistical arrogant men are not a pretty sight

Thanks Uncle Ben. In all your wisdom the only thing you could come up with that's wrong with my grow is the need for reflector panels? Ben, I move the panels aside to take the pics. Oh, and I trim leaves. Well, we have to agree to disagree on that one. So, the great Uncle Ben finds nothing wrong with my grow. I'm flattered.

Great video about growing outdoors, called The Green Rush... at 26 minutes and 21 seconds into it, a Mexican grower who is working for an American grower, explains that with cold weather coming, and the shorter days, it is time to begin trimming leaves to allow sun into the plants... This Mexican has been growing or around it his entire life.

I guess UB is gonna call him names and try to discredit him next? Those Mexicans are doing what has been handed down to them for decades.

[video=hulu;ydQ1aI6yyS9huziLt_MUZA]http://www.hulu.com/watch/149015/the-green-rush[/video]

Cool vid. Thank you.

I don't think it's anything to do with trimming leaves or botany that has UB in a tizzy. In fact, I'm not sure what it is. He seems not to like people new to growing, or people who grow different than him. I've seen the guy's posts and some of them are awsome. He's clearly been at it a good long time and has alot to offer the growing community. I think alot of noobs and experienced growers alike could benefit from his experience. I'm just not quite sure why he's unwilling to let go of the hate and anger, and just participate in the forum like everyone else does.

collective gardener said:

I'm just not quite sure why he's unwilling to let go of the hate and anger, and just participate in the forum like everyone else does.

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And not sure why you must express yourself in a passive aggressive manner, not that it really bothers me. Like I said, we've been down this road before. Perhaps it's time you searched my posts on the subject of defoliation which has been discussed in every forum I've participated in for about 15 years. Like I said, every new crop of noobs brings the subject up as the 4 concurrent RIU threads now reflect. Start with the infamous Lollipopping thread. I mentioned the scientific side of the leaf story such as the CO2 flag. And with every noob new to the scene, to them defoliation is "Advanced". This thread should not be in this forum. It should have been posted in Basic or Newbie Central. At least this guy got it right LOL --> https://www.rollitup.org/newbie-central/352300-defoliation-removing-fan-leaves-higher.html

Look fellas, this has turned into nothing more than a shitfest, another tired old chest beating thread that reeks of testosterone. I really don't care if you butcher your plants, after all it's your garden, not mine. Popular thought, feelings, forum politics, and group paradigms dictate the Herd mentality of cannabis forums. It is what it is.

I know what makes a plant tick. I literally grow thousands of plant material as we speak, over 3,600, using miles of drip irrigation pipe, controllers, etc. I am a large scale commercial niche farmer. I have never stripped leaves off of anything and that botanical logic extends to growing berries, grape vines, conifers, veggies, orchids, roses and shade, fruit, olive, citrus and nut trees and my most recent venture..... gourmet avocados.

Good luck,
UB

UB...we'll have to agree to dissagree. I'm also done with the insults. Whether I'm reading them or saying them, they don't make me feel good. This is the first post that I've went down that negative road on, and I apologize to the group for doing so. It won't happen again.

And everything UB is growing is done outdoors under a sun.... Those that believe removing leaves helps plants will continue to do so. Mexicans will keep doing it because they have for centuries. Ed Rosenthal will continue to recommend it because it promotes new growth when done in vegetation, and it keeps humidity down, improves airflow, reduces hiding places for insects, allows more light into the center of the plant, etc. The section in the Grower's Bible regarding indoor ScrOGs will continue to read that removing leaves is done to improve airflow and reduce humidity, thereby reducing opportunities for mold.

While removing leaves may not improve a yield, my personal experience has been that it reduces pop corn buds and allows the plant to develop up top. While I disagree with UB on this topic, I do appreciate his topping post and the tips and tricks...

The bottom line is, every garden is different in some way, from all of the other gardens out there. We each take pride in what we do and we get emotional if someone calls our methods noobish. No wonder this post turned into a shitfest, everyone of them does because the same two people come in and trash every thread that has anything to do with leaf and removal in the subject line. That has been my observation.

UB do you still have those pics of your massive super skunk colas that you grew back in the day? Crazy big.

And Unclue Ben bows out for the second time while tossing in "noobs, butcher,Herd mentality, I know what makes a plant tick , and I really dont care what you do to your garden" ..... Very gracious as expected and dont kid yourself you care very much how everyone else grows.

We will continue to grow the way we do getting higher yields and pushing the envelope and he will continue to grow his old tested and true methods. I am also quite certain we will hear from him everytime this comes up in the same negative fashion discrediting any and all evidence that proves it works when done at the right place and time.

Peace

...and that's a wrap

sso said:

removing fan leaves, is like having a few huge solarbatteries and remove them so more light passes to the much smaller and less efficient solarbatteries you got, but both power the same thing.

every leaf contributes to the whole. thats why sometimes you can see the tallest bud being perhaps grown out of the light, but still gets the most juice from the other leaves.

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Cannabis in its natural state growing in its natural environment does dot see benefit from defoliation. The thing is that indoor growing is not even close to natural, the lights lack the the spectrum penetration and intensity of the sun the spaces are much more confined and plants are pushed to their limits. although the exact amount of leaves that are need is up for debate one thing is clear to me the whole idea of defoliation is to only provide the plants with just enough leaves to absorb all the light it is given, being out of its natural environment it produces much more leaves than needed and many leaves become a drain on the plants energy. the removal of these leaves also frees up space for buds to grow and creates much more air movement decreasing risk of mold and improving c02 intake. it is clear that defoliation can greatly help to improve yield and efficiency
but there are so many factors such as grow space( height and area), lighting power, type of lighting, spectrum, penetration, c02 level, temperature, nutrients, grow style (sog,scrog,lst, supercropping, topping, big Christmas tree, verticle etc) genetics, strain, sub-species. all those long list of things and possibly more are going to have an effect on how much defoilation is needed if any. it takes much experimenting but basically you want to keep the youngest leaves closest to the lights you do not want light escaping the leaves but they also can not be so packed that much if the leaves are not receiving any light, it is also okay to cut parts of leaves off. one thing that I can not seem to find definitive information on is the importance of lights on flowers, they do photosynthesize but not nearly as much as the leaves. it is also possible that the flowers can contain more of the other accessory pigments wich help the chlorophyll pigments to produce energy more efficiently. I have no idea if phytochromes are located in flowers leaves or both but it could explain why some buds flower and ripen later then others seeing how phytochromes are what regulates the flowering. also I know UVB has good effects on increasing thc content and I believe its more important for the uvb to reach the buds then the leaves. Just some food for your thoughts, friends

Of all the threads to necro, you necro one on defoliation.

It all works in conjunction with each other and finding that sweet spot for you environment is what the goal should be. tsmit420 there are some of us that understand this balance in an indoor grow, and strive for it. good luck and keep it up

Im scrogging outdoor on a balcony, in a relatively humid atlantic coast nearby climate. After losing about half an ounce of.my autos to bud rot, i decided to go one step beyond the regular "under the net" trimming for my photoperiod plant. I trimmed her a lot. I was also fighting spider mites, and spraying neem late in flower on my autos, as well as a few weeks of rain close to harvest really screwed me over. My photo is mid to late flower so to avoid having to spray with neem ive been regularly removing.leaves that have mites larvae or eggs on them. Personally i wouldn't have removed SO many leaves if i didn't have to as I'm sure the stress will slow her down a bit, but even so have had to.cut away sections that show early signs of bud rot. Im getting powdery mildew too.

This pic.is.from last week, ive since.trimmed even.more



Heres a pic.of what she looked.like before with my very small autos around her.too



Look im barely finishing my.second grow so dont have much knowledge to impart other than....if you have a reason to trim ie airflow (like me) and ventilation, humidity issues etc etc, then go for it. I didn't post a thread, i did my research and made the call to do.it. I'm happy i did. I may have lost the whole plant to.bud rot had i not.done anything and id still be spraying neem on flowering plants to kill off the spider mites.

Even after all the trimming im.still checking each bud thoroughly almost.daily. I would have thought personally that being outside, the air circulation would not be an issue but in my case its not true....

i don't think i would trim the leaves in the hope that the buds would get bigger.....perhaps if i had many plants to expwriment with as a previous poster has done, then id.give.it a.shot. Why not. i have still tried.to leave a few fan leaves on but needed to get better light penetration to the smaller bud sites.too

I would have thought different strains would react differently too

all i got to say you guys is it works and im experiencing that first hand right now... i been defoliating my plant since its been in early veg and im almost 8 weeks into flower... ive been taking all the big fan leaves off and ive got amazing results. all my bottom buds are getting huge and the tops are huge also so ive seen in no way how this hurts the bud grow but infact promotes growth.. the big fans are just blocking yous lower bud sites so cut them babys off and get them good lumens to your bottom nodes and youll never go back i promise... your buds have little leave that grow out of them thats all they need to get nice and big trust me there the ONLY ones you need to keep... ill be posting picks later today to show you guy the results ive got from this great tech... im doing a scrog grow of some afgan mango and its 100% sativa for sure seeing as how all my pistils are still white and the calyxs are just now starting to swell

Serapis said:

It's unfortunate that the OP accidentally asked a question that seems to always cause a rift here on the forums. The actual question is how far into flowering should one remove leaves? The answer is dependent on several variables, such as strain and genetics. I certainly would not encourage anyone to pluck leaves from a sativa plant that is six weeks into flower, hell, those plants need every leaf they can get.

Squatty, bushy Indicas on the other hand do benefit from proper pruning and defoliation. Not only are you allowing more light into the center of the plant, you improve air circulation which reduces the likelihood of molds or mildews, because fewer leaves and better airflow also means lower humidity. So if you have humidity issues that are hard to get under control, remove lower leaves and get the air moving under the bud canopy.

And to those that cite the solar leaf panel mantra, I suggest you look at Ed Rosenthals Closet Cultivation book on the subject of defoliation and pruning. There are many benefits to the indoor grower to knowing when and why to prune and or remove leaves. At 4 weeks into flower, any bud sites not getting light should be trimmed off and set aside for cannabutter or hash. This lets the plant focus on the important buds that are getting sufficient light.

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OK, I'm new here, But I've been growing awhile.I agree with up to 4 weeks, that's when I stop. I see alot more growth on Veg. Part. All in all it Works. 2mean420

cincinnatus said:

all i got to say you guys is it works and im experiencing that first hand right now... i been defoliating my plant since its been in early veg and im almost 8 weeks into flower... ive been taking all the big fan leaves off and ive got amazing results. all my bottom buds are getting huge and the tops are huge also so ive seen in no way how this hurts the bud grow but infact promotes growth.. the big fans are just blocking yous lower bud sites so cut them babys off and get them good lumens to your bottom nodes and youll never go back i promise... your buds have little leave that grow out of them thats all they need to get nice and big trust me there the ONLY ones you need to keep... ill be posting picks later today to show you guy the results ive got from this great tech... im doing a scrog grow of some afgan mango and its 100% sativa for sure seeing as how all my pistils are still white and the calyxs are just now starting to swell

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I Agree

I agree Strain, has to B key, some take more, stress, temp, ect. It works

collective gardener said:

UB...we'll have to agree to dissagree. I'm also done with the insults. Whether I'm reading them or saying them, they don't make me feel good. This is the first post that I've went down that negative road on, and I apologize to the group for doing so. It won't happen again.

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I'm not here to make friends or make you feel good. I'm here to provide solid botanical info based on almost 50 years of gardening experience, both personal and professional. Having said that, there's a dozen of these silly defoliation threads, lollipopping threads. All you need to do is search.

I see where another new crop of "New member" says it works. Anything "works" if you just leave the plant alone and let the leaves drive bud production.

Here's just a few:

I discussed the botanical side of what drives bud production, apical dominance for example:

https://www.rollitup.org/t/no-lower-budsites-do-not-need-light-to-develop-get-educated.829061/

https://www.rollitup.org/t/lollipopping-any-scientific-evidence.846126/page-22

Uncle Ben said:

I'm not here to make friends or make you feel good. I'm here to provide solid botanical info based on almost 50 years of gardening experience, both personal and professional. Having said that, there's a dozen of these silly defoliation threads, lollipopping threads. All you need to do is search.

I see where another new crop of "New member" says it works. Anything "works" if you just leave the plant alone and let the leaves drive bud production.

Here's just a few:

https://www.rollitup.org/t/no-lower-budsites-do-not-need-light-to-develop-get-educated.829061/

https://www.rollitup.org/t/lollipopping-any-scientific-evidence.846126/page-22

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DUDEo What U Do, Smoke another an Chill.