Day 29 - Lower leaves are turning yellow/brown and are crispy? Please help - (pics)

I am growing a dozen bag seed plants under 6500k CFL's.

I am using some tropical soil mix purchased at a big box retailer.

I am using tap water that I let sit for a week before I use it.

I have no idea what the PH is of the water or the soil.

I have them under 24hrs of light. They have ranged between 2-4" from the light bulbs.

I HAD never given them any nutes as I was waiting until around a month to go buy some and use them.

I noticed about a week ago that the lower leaves on nearly all the plants were turning yellow and then kind of brown and a few days later those same leaves became crispy and dry and they break off when you touch them.

I tried to do as much reading as possible and everything seemed to say that they had a nute deficincy - the only nutes I had here was MG 24-16-8 so I dulted it to a 1/4 strength and gave them a foliar feeding 2 days ago and also misted the soil with about 10 sprays each. They don't seem to be getting any better, but on MOST of them the new growth on the top is healthy - I was worried first about heat but it is only the lower leaves doing this.

About an hour ago I gave them another feeding of them same nute mix and then took some pics.

Please shed some light on this for me as I thought I was doing evreything right this time around - using cfl's etc

They are growing in a cardboard cabinet I made that is open on both ends and has a fan blowing through the box at all times and the window of the room is open a bit - temps in the box are around 79-80 degrees - no idea on the humidity.

I should note that this started happening a couple of days after I transplanted them from the party cups they were in into these 4L water jug containers that I turned into pots and yes they have many holes in the bottom for drainage. I do have the containers sitting on top of a towel on a tray so the run off gets absorbed by the towel. PLease help - here are the pics:

marinegreen said:

I have no idea what the PH is of the water or the soil.

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This is your problem. pH is VERY important. More than likely your pH is very high, and it's locking out key nutrients.

Def find out the ph, even if you have to buy cheap ass litmus paper. Have some clue what your ph is.
I think its multiple nutrient difficientcies brought on by toxic salt build up, or, over fertilization. But i could be wrong. If you ph is completely whacked, certain nutrient will nver be available to your plant EVER.
The reason 5.8 to 6.2 is the sweet spot for ph is because all nutrient, Macro, Micro, and otherwise can be absorbed at those level. Take a look at this chart:


As you can see, in soil, at around the 4 - 4.5, N-P-K are barely available, along with the secondary nutrients, Cal, Sul, Mag. If you notice the 6.0 - 6.5 range, you can see that all nutrients including micro nutes are available to your plant.

Here's the .pdf I got this from. It's from the Advanced nutrients web site, but no matter how you feel about AN's, this .pdf has good information on mediums, meters, hydroponic techniques, and of course, nutrients. It's really thorough and informative, I recommend it.

Well nm that I guess... I couldn't figure out how to attach a download to the post here's the link to the site http://advancednutrients.com/hydroponics/index.php . It on the homepage. It's called "A brain dead simple system to growing bigger buds" or something similar.

This is a similar pronlem with my friend plan though he only planted a few sets. After observing this problem he decided to
plant in a different location.

He started planting in areas with healthy vegetations nearby.
According to him places surrounded by healthy vegetations indicates that the soil has an ideal ph level.
This recommendation is based from his experience.
I'm not sure if this observation is applicable at all times.

ah ok thanks everyone for your help - I guess the soil I bought is kind of shitty or the PH is whack - how much do soil ph level checker things cost and where do I buy them?

I've been reading a bit more - i wish i knew if the soil was too high or too low in ph because I don't want to have to buy a meter and whatever stuff I will need to fix the ph.

I am assuming because the leaves are coloring that the ph is too low and N is not being used properly...

I read that using lime will raise the ph.

marinegreen said:

ah ok thanks everyone for your help - I guess the soil I bought is kind of shitty or the PH is whack - how much do soil ph level checker things cost and where do I buy them?

I've been reading a bit more - i wish i knew if the soil was too high or too low in ph because I don't want to have to buy a meter and whatever stuff I will need to fix the ph.

I am assuming because the leaves are coloring that the ph is too low and N is not being used properly...
I read that using lime will raise the ph.

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Dude.....dude.... ph is really REALLY important. To tell you the truth, I still dont have a ph meter, BUT, (1) I use r/o water (2) I use a pH balanced mix of soilless medium (coco) and ph balanced soil, and (3) I use Advanced nutrients "pH Perfect" Connoisseur. It's supposed to be formulated to allow all nutrients to be available at any ph level, though the bottles (part A&B) will run you over $100, BuT I got a discount, a five finger discount, I've been lucky.But I will not go with out a ph meter for very much longer. Not having a ph meter is a total noob mistake. I dont like to use that word, but it is.
A ph meter can run you anywhere from $5 for litmus paper which you can use in soil and water (sold at pool supply shops), 15 dollars for a cheap one and up from there. The thing is you have to make sure you buy calibration sloution with your ph meters. They're about $7 a bottle and you'll need two, 7.0 & 4.0.
A soil test ph meter is only like $7-$10 bucks, but you can use litmus paper http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_0_12?url=search-alias=garden&field-keywords=litmus+paper&x=0&y=0&sprefix=litmus+paper, if you do it right.
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=ph+meters&x=0&y=0
http://www.amazon.com/General-Hydroponics-4-0-Calibration-Solution/dp/B001D0CMXY/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1288389724&sr=8-2
http://www.amazon.com/General-Hydroponics-7-0-Calibration-Solution/dp/B001D0CKYK/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1288389770&sr=8-7

If you dont have a ph meter Im guessing you dont have a ppm/tds/ec (all measure the same thing; the strength of your fertilizer solution) which you will also need. I d say if you go cheap, you could get all three for about $100 + s/h. Suck I know. But their necessary if you want the highest potency pot.
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias=garden&field-keywords=ppm+meters&rh=n:1055398,k:ppm+meters&enc=1&ajr=3

5 finger discount? bad karma brother....

I'd reccomend a hardy flush and then find out your soil and water's PH but flush thoroughly.

HippySmoke said:

5 finger discount? bad karma brother....

I'd reccomend a hardy flush and then find out your soil and water's PH but flush thoroughly.

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I don't see the logic in flushing them because there was nothing in there except regular soil and I had this problem BEFORE I fed them nutes?

Will flushing them somehow raise the ph of the soil? Is it safe to use water straight out of the facet because I don't have enough water that has sit to flush them?

DO you use tap water by chance?

Yes I do use tap water, but I let it sit for a few days before I use it to let the chlorine evaporate.

Do you have a ppm meter? I think it has to be under 30 ppm to be considered "good" water. I do the same thing too when I don't have R/O water.
I think excess salt from your tap water might be it. Especially if you've been using it for a while.
Evaporating doesn't get rid of the calcium or the magnesium or a bunch of other stuff. Try transplanting and switching to R/O water maybe.

where do I get r/o water from exactly?

No i don't have a ppm meter - im not sure if the ph is too high or too low or what the ph of the water is

I am going to try and transplant one into some shitty soil

Reverse osmosis water is the one you buy from the machine at like grocery stores for like .25 - .30 cents a gallon (it's costs me about $3 every two weeks for 17 gallons). There are also store committed completely to R/O water and R/O water products, in Vegas they're called H20 to Go, but it shouldn't be too hard to find somewhere to get R/O water. Sometimes they're just set up randomly in parking lots in the shape of a windmill or some type of small kiosk or hut. Or if you have the cash, r/o system can bought at home depot for $250 for like 50 gallons a day.

ahh ok thanks beansly yeah we have spring water, distilled water, and reverse osmosis water here I'm sure.

I transplanted 3 of the plants to some differnet very black soil without perilite I had klicking around and I have not fed them any water yet but I will be switching to R/O water.

Is distilled water okay? What if the water is ozonated?

thanks so much.

Distilled, I've honestly never used, but i've heard people use it to flush plants because it's ph balanced.
About ozonation, I've kinda wondered myself..i don't really know about that one. All I know is that when I switched to R/O water, my ph problems were almost non-existant and my plants always have that "happy" look that people talk about. Plus I think nutrient companies start with r/o to formulate their solutions but idk. I still have neither a ppm meter or a ph meter, but due diligence has paid off and the plants are happy. I'm gonna buy them as soon as I can afford them.

MG grow Organic is ok in a pinch. Just make sure to add a lot of perlite, like 2:1 almost, and water like every other day. Also, adjust your fertilizer strength becasue of the nutes MG (or almost any other bag soil for that matter) has in it already.

Beansly said:

Distilled, I've honestly never used, but i've heard people use it to flush plants because it's ph balanced.
About ozonation, I've kinda wondered myself..i don't really know about that one. All I know is that when I switched to R/O water, my ph problems were almost non-existant and my plants always have that "happy" look that people talk about. Plus I think nutrient companies start with r/o to formulate their solutions but idk. I still have neither a ppm meter or a ph meter, but due diligence has paid off and the plants are happy. I'm gonna buy them as soon as I can afford them.

MG grow Organic is ok in a pinch. Just make sure to add a lot of perlite, like 2:1 almost, and water like every other day. Also, adjust your fertilizer strength becasue of the nutes MG (or almost any other bag soil for that matter) has in it already.

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Thanks for the info - now I know what you are talking about - Im sure there are machines here in supermarkets that sell this same water you are ferring to.

The soil I transplanted them to is from the dollar store and it is very black - it has no perlite in it...

I'm thinking maybe I should go buy some new soil and and buy some of this water, but I am not sure what kind of soil to buy...

If I bought the MG organic like you are saying - where would I buy the perlite - at the same store? is it cheap?

How much should I disturb the root ball when I transplant? Should I shake it and pick at it so as much of the old soil falls off?

I really wish I could tell if it was the soil or the water that is the problem. The soil I bought didn't say anyhting about having nutes in it and it was called "premium container soil" and it has perlite in it.

Its hard to tell which is the problem without spending at least $100 on soil and water ph meters, ph meter calibration solution (4.0&7.0), ppm/ec/tds meter, ppm/ec/tds meter calibration solution..
I'm still trying to raise the money.

Transplanting should help. Home depot sells perlite and yeah it's cheap. Try and see if there's a hydro store in your town, or at the very least, a plant nursery. Perlites like 3 bucks and a big bag of MG organic is $7-$9 bucks.

When you transplant, try removing a much of the soil as possible without losing too much roots. You dont have to break up the rootball, just fluff out the sides and bottom so that the roots there are loose and dangling.

You should be ok once you transplant and switch to good water.
Water with a root stimulator if you have some.

Don't have much to add to this one. pH is what you need to fix. Lots of good advice here.

Course, sometimes, the lower leaves can die out and it's no big deal. Though, the crispy leaves do sound like nute issues..... I just wait things out sometimes, but that's not always the best advice.......you know, I'd just take the advice of people from the boards. They sound like they're giving you the tips you need to use....

good luck...

Once again, yeah, pH problem. I had the same thing going on, kind of. I kept feeding, but the plants were still looking hungry. I figured my water is OK because I live in the mountains and am not on a well and my water tastes like water, but when I pH'd it it came out off the charts (8+). I am using a pH test kit I got at the hydro shop, 1 drop of liquid in the sample and compare colors, pretty easy and no calibration. It was $10 and says its good for 800+ tests.

Also, yeah be gentle when you transplant, but do scuff up the root ball a bit, not break up - just kinda scrape the outside so some roots are sticking out.

And for the soil, I try to stay away from any MG products, and soil with built in fertilizers. The stuff I am using now is labeled "Organics" and is made of worm casings and humus or something.

marinegreen said:

I am growing a dozen bag seed plants under 6500k CFL's.

I am using some tropical soil mix purchased at a big box retailer.

I am using tap water that I let sit for a week before I use it.

I have no idea what the PH is of the water or the soil.

I have them under 24hrs of light. They have ranged between 2-4" from the light bulbs.

I HAD never given them any nutes as I was waiting until around a month to go buy some and use them.

I noticed about a week ago that the lower leaves on nearly all the plants were turning yellow and then kind of brown and a few days later those same leaves became crispy and dry and they break off when you touch them.

I tried to do as much reading as possible and everything seemed to say that they had a nute deficincy - the only nutes I had here was MG 24-16-8 so I dulted it to a 1/4 strength and gave them a foliar feeding 2 days ago and also misted the soil with about 10 sprays each. They don't seem to be getting any better, but on MOST of them the new growth on the top is healthy - I was worried first about heat but it is only the lower leaves doing this.

About an hour ago I gave them another feeding of them same nute mix and then took some pics.

Please shed some light on this for me as I thought I was doing evreything right this time around - using cfl's etc

They are growing in a cardboard cabinet I made that is open on both ends and has a fan blowing through the box at all times and the window of the room is open a bit - temps in the box are around 79-80 degrees - no idea on the humidity.

I should note that this started happening a couple of days after I transplanted them from the party cups they were in into these 4L water jug containers that I turned into pots and yes they have many holes in the bottom for drainage. I do have the containers sitting on top of a towel on a tray so the run off gets absorbed by the towel. PLease help - here are the pics:

View attachment 1239297 View attachment 1239299 View attachment 1239302 View attachment 1239303

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marinegreen,

I think part of your problem is that you might be keeping them a little to wet. I suggest blocking them up off the towel you have under them and inch or so, so that they can drip out all they want to and also to have some air circulate under there. And let them dry out a little more between waterings (but not to the point they wilt from lack of moisture).

Also it's been my experience that 24/0 light is not the best for starting plants under. I recomend cutting the light back to 20/4 or 18/6. Also you should have a fan blowing enough of a breeze across them to keep them gently swaying around.

Jack