Dave's First LED Grow Using Area 51

daveroller · Feb 5, 2014

Scotch089 said:
The only one that suggested MORE was Shwathisname..

...how could I ever forget that ass?

Wow, thanks for that info! I'm having a major epiphany. All along I had been under the mistaken impression that nute lockout was simply salt buildup in the roots, clogging them up so that the plant can't take anything in. But I guess I'm learning from you that lockout is the whole plant being oversaturated with nute. I am SO glad that someone set me straight on that. (I will bookmark that Mulder's Chart!)

I originally freaked out when I saw the light leaf tips, because I had vaguely remembered it possibly being a sign of too much nute. I lowered the tds back then, but not nearly enough it turns out. Anyway, thanks again Scotch! A guy could learn a hell of a lot from you and brother Dawg! I'm glad you're both following this right now. The rest of the grow should go a little better now, fingers crossed! But the really big benefit to me is that I learned something important today, what lockout really IS.

Scotch089 · Feb 5, 2014

daveroller said:
Wow, thanks for that info! I'm having a major epiphany. All along I had been under the mistaken impression that nute lockout was simply salt buildup in the roots, clogging them up so that the plant can't take anything in. But I guess I'm learning from you that lockout is the whole plant being oversaturated with nute. I am SO glad that someone set me straight on that. (I will bookmark that Mulder's Chart!)

I originally freaked out when I saw the light leaf tips, because I had vaguely remembered it possibly being a sign of too much nute. I lowered the tds back then, but not nearly enough it turns out. Anyway, thanks again Scotch! A guy could learn a hell of a lot from you and brother Dawg! I'm glad you're both following this right now. The rest of the grow should go a little better now, fingers crossed! But the really big benefit to me is that I learned something important today, what lockout really IS.

Brother... wanna know a secret? ha. no secret, I was an avid "lurker" for years of RIU and getting my feet wet growing... and signed up just to get in touch with the fellow growers for Calcium Toxicity when I had first gotten my RO and moved to shitty waters...

...guess who was the best dude there... my brother Dawg. A simple pm couple years ago and I would shelter this guy any day of the week if he ever needed it, and a few others...

It was actually humorous watching you guys shoot the shit... very cool. He is a genuinely good guy, and unfortunately God sometimes teaches us lessons in hard ways, I still hope for you Dawg. Hope you are doing well my friend. No matter the hand you are dealt, you keep those paws drawin'.

Anyways, being the greatest guy he is... he actually insisted I go with more CalMag+, I did... and did... and it bit me, good. but then it gave me MY epiphany, I started toying with ratio's, ppms, fuckin everything I could to figure it out...

MODERATION is the most important thing in LIFE my friend Dave,

"Too much of anything is a bad thing..." My dad told me that when I was younger, and I try to live by that.

I have high TDS well water (~400ppm, lot of sulphur and calcium), and a RO... I cant use either alone and get substantial results. Pure RO (0ppm), w/ and w/out the Cal/Mag from (none-300ppm)...

Now, I use 100ppm base before any nutes and they love it. Nice buffer cap. too... helps with PH. (so does protekt/silica in my exp)

But I use 5:1 tap RO because I know what is in my water, I have done it with cal/mag and up to 150ppm worked for me... ("truncheon factor TDS")

In 12/12 I cut the Tap altogether to give way for a more concentrated and "designed" formula of the additives we want, let's me double my concentration, and then some... without having to spike my readings.. 1000+ is unheard of in this household ;-)

But every man to his own, and again, your plants do look great Dave.

Be safe!

Scotch089 · Feb 5, 2014

Here you go mate... stickies in the other subsection...

Nutrient Deficiency or Toxicity

Plant Moisture Stress

"...the most common cause of leaf cupping aka leaf margin rolling, leaf margin burn, and leaf tip curl/burn is the overzealous use of too much plant food in relationship to factors such as plant size, vigor and rate of growth. The first unit of a plant to show moisture stress is the leaf at its margins and/or tips, reflected by margin rolling (cupping) or burning. Sometimes copper colored necrotic spots show in the leaf also. A hard, crispy feel to the leaf frequently occurs as well, as opposed to a soft and cool feel of a happy leaf. When you have a high concentration of salts in solution (or in the root medium) compared to lower salinity levels found in the plant’s tissue, water is actually drawn out of the plant across the root gradient in order to fix the ppm imbalance. IOW, this is a natural, osmotic response that serves to equalize salinity levels on both sides of the root’s epidermal gradient. Back off on the amount and/or frequency of plant food. Too much plant food can also burn the roots, especially the sensitive root tips and hairs, which then creates another set of problems such as nutrient deficiencies. A note for the bio folks - as soil dries, the concentration of the remaining salts rises further exacerbating the problem. Leach (flush) your pots once in a while to get rid of excess salts."

Those bold portions are what I tried to drill into Edge's (t)h(r)ead...... maybe this will help everyone.

daveroller · Feb 6, 2014

Scotch089 said:
Brother... wanna know a secret? ha. no secret, I was an avid "lurker" for years of RIU and getting my feet wet growing... and signed up just to get in touch with the fellow growers for Calcium Toxicity when I had first gotten my RO and moved to shitty waters...

...guess who was the best dude there... my brother Dawg. A simple pm couple years ago and I would shelter this guy any day of the week if he ever needed it, and a few others...

It was actually humorous watching you guys shoot the shit... very cool. He is a genuinely good guy, and unfortunately God sometimes teaches us lessons in hard ways, I still hope for you Dawg. Hope you are doing well my friend. No matter the hand you are dealt, you keep those paws drawin'.

Anyways, being the greatest guy he is... he actually insisted I go with more CalMag+, I did... and did... and it bit me, good. but then it gave me MY epiphany, I started toying with ratio's, ppms, fuckin everything I could to figure it out...

MODERATION is the most important thing in LIFE my friend Dave,

"Too much of anything is a bad thing..." My dad told me that when I was younger, and I try to live by that.

I have high TDS well water (~400ppm, lot of sulphur and calcium), and a RO... I cant use either alone and get substantial results. Pure RO (0ppm), w/ and w/out the Cal/Mag from (none-300ppm)...

Now, I use 100ppm base before any nutes and they love it. Nice buffer cap. too... helps with PH. (so does protekt/silica in my exp)

But I use 5:1 tap RO because I know what is in my water, I have done it with cal/mag and up to 150ppm worked for me... ("truncheon factor TDS")

In 12/12 I cut the Tap altogether to give way for a more concentrated and "designed" formula of the additives we want, let's me double my concentration, and then some... without having to spike my readings.. 1000+ is unheard of in this household

But every man to his own, and again, your plants do look great Dave.

Be safe!

I think in my last grow I kept it under 900 ppm and got ok results, but I was disappointed. (Now I blame the shitty fluorescent lights I used.) So this time around I wanted to test the limits of how much I could add safely and I thought that with the brighter light the plant might want more "food". And she grew great during veg with a high level of nute, up to around 1200 ppm. Advanced Nutrients' "Nutrient Calculator" and the instructions on their bottles encourage customers to add even more nute than I did, so they're just full of shit in that department. I think that some growers have used it full strength, but they must have a better setup or something (???). Or maybe they grow their plants MUCH bigger than mine so that they need more nute. I'm thinking of Flowamasta, that Australian wizard who grows 2 lb dry weight plants.

Well anyway, this was a hard lesson learned, but at least THIS time I learned something about it. Without your advice and brother Dawg's and others', I'd still be confused about what happened. In some of my earlier grows I had similar problems, but I couldn't tell whether it was nute toxicity or deficiency. I kind of thought it was just too much, but wasn't really sure and didn't understand the process behind the problem. You just turned on a light and I can see what's going on now.

Yeah, brother Dawg is a really generous guy who helps people with everything from growing advice to where to get a good deal on equipment! I think I met the right people to follow here. It's been a great education and FUN! Ok, now I gotta get around to posting tonight's update finally!!!

daveroller · Feb 6, 2014

Scotch089 said:
Here you go mate... stickies in the other subsection...

Nutrient Deficiency or Toxicity

Plant Moisture Stress

"...the most common cause of leaf cupping aka leaf margin rolling, leaf margin burn, and leaf tip curl/burn is the overzealous use of too much plant food in relationship to factors such as plant size, vigor and rate of growth. The first unit of a plant to show moisture stress is the leaf at its margins and/or tips, reflected by margin rolling (cupping) or burning. Sometimes copper colored necrotic spots show in the leaf also. A hard, crispy feel to the leaf frequently occurs as well, as opposed to a soft and cool feel of a happy leaf. When you have a high concentration of salts in solution (or in the root medium) compared to lower salinity levels found in the plant’s tissue, water is actually drawn out of the plant across the root gradient in order to fix the ppm imbalance. IOW, this is a natural, osmotic response that serves to equalize salinity levels on both sides of the root’s epidermal gradient. Back off on the amount and/or frequency of plant food. Too much plant food can also burn the roots, especially the sensitive root tips and hairs, which then creates another set of problems such as nutrient deficiencies. A note for the bio folks - as soil dries, the concentration of the remaining salts rises further exacerbating the problem. Leach (flush) your pots once in a while to get rid of excess salts."

Those bold portions are what I tried to drill into Edge's (t)h(r)ead...... maybe this will help everyone.

More great information explained very clearly. Even the way it explains osmosis makes it very simple to remember and to understand the process. Thanks, Scotch! I am taking notes. I'll journal this post, too.

So too strong of a nute solution can lead to a nute deficiency or toxicity. Somehow I avoided the deficiency but got bitten by toxicity. My plant was still sucking up nutrient, so osmosis must not have come into play to create a deficiency. But if minerals are too highly concentrated inside the plant, then it can keep drawing in more water + nute and the toxicity problem can get even worse unless the res water is diluted. I think my weekly flushes have probably kept it from getting a lot worse than it is.

daveroller · Feb 6, 2014

Tonight's Update

Tested the res water tonight and it was at 940 ppm and 5.95 pH. The ppm might be slightly higher than what I read this morning, but I think it's possible that some nute just got washed out of the Perlite. I'll check it again tomorrow to see if it goes down.

Next are some shots that I took tonight:

With flash:

Without flash:

---
This Spring I'm going to either modify my cabinet or buy a new tent that's a little bigger. I really need to raise up the ceiling. Here's the top of the cabinet:

If I remove that top shelf, the new ceiling will be 12" higher. Just enough room to grow a decent sized plant using my LED panel. I'll reinforce the whole cabinet if I go this way.

My new Green Gator air filter definitely won't fit inside my 19" x 39" cabinet. So I was thinking of maybe putting it up on top of the cabinet. I think there's just enough room up there. I can put it inside an airtight box that can sit on top of the cab. Then I just need a nice big hole in the ceiling to let the air get sucked up into the box. I'll put the MaxFan after the Gator filter, maybe attach them together if it's possible, or just connect them with a short piece of ducting. Then attach the fan to the ducting that leads up to the attic. Then I won't have to worry about a furnace repair guy smelling pot plant up there anymore! (They haven't complained yet.)

PetFlora · Feb 6, 2014

Looking good.

I still suggest you remove the lower leafs. I know it's hard to do. I resisted doing so for a few years, but consider this...

All lighting has a lumenous sweet spot, which is not likely to provide any useful lumens below a certain point

Any part of the plant below that is actually using food and energy that would serve you much better feeding the parts within the sweet spot

daveroller · Feb 6, 2014

PetFlora said:
Looking good.

I still suggest you remove the lower leafs. I know it's hard to do. I resisted doing so for a few years, but consider this...

All lighting has a lumenous sweet spot, which is not likely to provide any useful lumens below a certain point

Any part of the plant below that is actually using food and energy that would serve you much better feeding the parts within the sweet spot

It's already pretty "lolipopped". These latest photos are looking down at the plant, so you can't see the bare branches underneath. I MIGHT trim those big suckers off later after the plant gets a little better, though.

daveroller · Feb 6, 2014

Monday night while I was trimming I found a few skinny little popcorn stems, so I cut them out:

They rob the rest of the plant of energy and never amount to much. After these are dried I'll smoke the buds. Waste not want not. :bigjoint:

Billy bangalot · Feb 6, 2014

Hey Dave. I know I am not a frequent visitor on this site, but just read ur thread and saw something that alarmed me. I don't know where u live, but if it gets below freezing you do not want to vent any kind of hot air into your attic. You will get ice dams. This happens when heat gets in the attic, warming your roof, which melts any snow/ice/frost. It then runs down to the edge of ur roof, re-freezes on the edge of the roof (overhang/soffit) and then melts down your walls/ soffits, fucking up ur house. In addition, venting moisture up there can (over time) weaken the trusses (or so I've heard) - again in cold weather (freezing and reheating of the beams). Anyway not weed related, but I saw that you have health probs (Dave roller - now I get it!) and thought I should chime in. This comes from having seen a friend go through this, having his roof collapse and having ice dams my self just from ordinary home heat get in the attic. Maybe someone here is in the const or engineering biz and knows more, but just thought I should alert you, as I knew nothing about this until I saw it firsthand. U can Google ice dams and learn more.

Peace

daveroller · Feb 6, 2014

Billy bangalot said:
Hey Dave. I know I am not a frequent visitor on this site, but just read ur thread and saw something that alarmed me. I don't know where u live, but if it gets below freezing you do not want to vent any kind of hot air into your attic. You will get ice dams. This happens when heat gets in the attic, warming your roof, which melts any snow/ice/frost. It then runs down to the edge of ur roof, re-freezes on the edge of the roof (overhang/soffit) and then melts down your walls/ soffits, fucking up ur house. In addition, venting moisture up there can (over time) weaken the trusses (or so I've heard) - again in cold weather (freezing and reheating of the beams). Anyway not weed related, but I saw that you have health probs (Dave roller - now I get it!) and thought I should chime in. This comes from having seen a friend go through this, having his roof collapse and having ice dams my self just from ordinary home heat get in the attic. Maybe someone here is in the const or engineering biz and knows more, but just thought I should alert you, as I knew nothing about this until I saw it firsthand. U can Google ice dams and learn more.

Peace

Thanks for the warning, Billy. So what can we growers do about it? I've heard of ice dams forming if your rain gutters get blocked in Winter, but thought if they're working, then you don't have to worry. (That's all I've heard about the subject, from the guy who put my roof on.)

Luckily, the vent is closer to the middle of the house, so the roof is high above the room's ceiling. I'll have to look outside tomorrow to see if any snow is melting up there. I hope I don't have to pay someone to route my grow room ducting up to a roof vent or chimney or something. I appreciate the heads-up, bro.

greatbranch · Feb 7, 2014

daveroller said:
Thanks for the warning, Billy. So what can we growers do about it? I've heard of ice dams forming if your rain gutters get blocked in Winter, but thought if they're working, then you don't have to worry. (That's all I've heard about the subject, from the guy who put my roof on.)

Luckily, the vent is closer to the middle of the house, so the roof is high above the room's ceiling. I'll have to look outside tomorrow to see if any snow is melting up there. I hope I don't have to pay someone to route my grow room ducting up to a roof vent or chimney or something. I appreciate the heads-up, bro.

you are venting funk, dave - not heat. you're good. you aren't really generating any heat unless you're more active down there than I think :bigjoint:

beardedclam · Feb 7, 2014

Really cool to follow your grow-op man! I'm new here so I'm just trying to learn by doing and also by learning through others mistakes! What are the pros of growing hydroponic you think? I'm doing my first grow right now with straight soil which will turn into a scrog later on. But I'm interested in growing hydro, I heard the potency is through the roof compared to traditional soil. Check out my grow if you have time and want to help a noobie out. Thanks for the great read!

daveroller · Feb 7, 2014

greatbranch said:
you are venting funk, dave - not heat. you're good. you aren't really generating any heat unless you're more active down there than I think

Yeah, I do have the fan on the lowest setting now, too, so it can't be too warm up there -- especially when it's -20° outside. My house has a lot of roof vents and this town is pretty windy, so I think that the slightly warmer and moister air should get blown out of the attic by the wind most of the time.

daveroller · Feb 7, 2014

beardedclam said:
Really cool to follow your grow-op man! I'm new here so I'm just trying to learn by doing and also by learning through others mistakes! What are the pros of growing hydroponic you think? I'm doing my first grow right now with straight soil which will turn into a scrog later on. But I'm interested in growing hydro, I heard the potency is through the roof compared to traditional soil. Check out my grow if you have time and want to help a noobie out. Thanks for the great read!

Most growers have either done only hydro or only organic from what I've seen here. I started with hydro, because I thought it would grow plants faster than soil or organic. But I never tried anything else, so I honestly don't know how they compare. One thing I've learned is that with hydro, if something's wrong, the plant suffers FAST. You can't go away and leave it for a weekend while the plant is flowering. It pretty much needs to be checked daily and the water changed once a week.

goodjoint · Feb 7, 2014

daveroller said:
Most growers have either done only hydro or only organic from what I've seen here. I started with hydro, because I thought it would grow plants faster than soil or organic. But I never tried anything else, so I honestly don't know how they compare. One thing I've learned is that with hydro, if something's wrong, the plant suffers FAST. You can't go away and leave it for a weekend while the plant is flowering. It pretty much needs to be checked daily and the water changed once a week.

I've been lurking/following this thread and your grow since you started. Thanks for posting all this - very helpful! It's been fun to watch what these LEDs can do.
I'm doing my very first grow with two XGS-190s and two 300W Vipar LEDs in a 4x4 tent. I'm about 2-3 weeks behind you on flowering.

When I first began I had some problems in early veg, I started with trying to use the GH Flora Series in soil and immediately I had troubles... but after taking some advice from a member of this site, I switched to organics early on. Since then I've had minimal issues from simple things that I won't do again because I'm a noob who's learning.

I highly recommend trying Organics if you have the investment. I am using the General Organics GO Box as a baseline along with AACT's and I am AMAZED with how my plants have been doing. Fast growth and minimal issues. I've also heard cool things about organic super soil that I want to try in another grow.

But best of all, I never have to worry about PH levels. In fact I sold my PH pen and got rid of it all-together.

However yesterday I discovered some slight nitrogen toxicity on one of my ladies

I've been feeding with every watering and need to kick it back a bit for her

I hope your grow turns out very well!!!! I'm excited and I'll continue to follow!!!!

rwbrock · Feb 7, 2014

Keep up the good work, I have gone from soil to hydro and next is organic "super soil" for me. Like the idea of watering only not to worry about all that other stuff. I want to try DWC as well. My experience was hydro did grow faster and bigger depends on what your doing. Plants will even mature faster. But it was also a more hands on approach and less forgiving. Most people who grow it becomes a hobby as well and don't mind daily tweeking. I need to start having a more hands off approach and keep it simple. My problem being every grow I want to change it up and that is a good way to become a jack of all trades and a master of none....

daveroller · Feb 7, 2014

goodjoint said:
I've been lurking/following this thread and your grow since you started. Thanks for posting all this - very helpful! It's been fun to watch what these LEDs can do.
I'm doing my very first grow with two XGS-190s and two 300W Vipar LEDs in a 4x4 tent. I'm about 2-3 weeks behind you on flowering.

When I first began I had some problems in early veg, I started with trying to use the GH Flora Series in soil and immediately I had troubles... but after taking some advice from a member of this site, I switched to organics early on. Since then I've had minimal issues from simple things that I won't do again because I'm a noob who's learning.

I highly recommend trying Organics if you have the investment. I am using the General Organics GO Box as a baseline along with AACT's and I am AMAZED with how my plants have been doing. Fast growth and minimal issues. I've also heard cool things about organic super soil that I want to try in another grow.

But best of all, I never have to worry about PH levels. In fact I sold my PH pen and got rid of it all-together.

However yesterday I discovered some slight nitrogen toxicity on one of my ladies I've been feeding with every watering and need to kick it back a bit for her

I hope your grow turns out very well!!!! I'm excited and I'll continue to follow!!!!

Thanks for sharing your story, bro. Someday I'd like to try organic. After the nute problem I had the last couple of weeks, it's tempting. But I think I'm close to getting it figured out, so I want to see if I can do it better in the next grow, based on my notes from this one.

daveroller · Feb 7, 2014

rwbrock said:
Keep up the good work, I have gone from soil to hydro and next is organic "super soil" for me. Like the idea of watering only not to worry about all that other stuff. I want to try DWC as well. My experience was hydro did grow faster and bigger depends on what your doing. Plants will even mature faster. But it was also a more hands on approach and less forgiving. Most people who grow it becomes a hobby as well and don't mind daily tweeking. I need to start having a more hands off approach and keep it simple. My problem being every grow I want to change it up and that is a good way to become a jack of all trades and a master of none....

I hear ya! I do the same thing, my friend.

aphrodisia · Feb 8, 2014

Would really love to know what the dry weight on this baby turns out to be. Looking good. How tall is it now ?

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