Cultivating marijuana would no longer be a mandatory felony in California bill

Ernst

Well-Known Member
So the real question is, who the fuck is someone to decide what I put in my own body? All it seems to me Ernst, is people scared of doing a little bit of labour, and you know, healthy compitition.
I would think the natural market is one of free choice. Just because one can grow cannabis doesn't mean they will. Beer-brewing is the example I'd use as a reference.
So the natural market for cannabis is related to if people are lazy to grow.. We don't need a law that defines the production levels. Prop-19 seemed to aim at artificial market controls aimed at maintaining prohibition prices.

I am sure for a few years we will have many providing cannabis to the black market but in the long run those who desire profits will find the legal marketplace the better market. That is once we go through the Legalization effect.

Either we all believe that cannabis is a safe intoxicant that grows under the sun or we don't as far as I am concerned.
 

Ernst

Well-Known Member
keep up the 'rights to the people' talk....

i wonder how many first-time offenders got arrested for possession of marijuana this week in cali....
Well.. That is one of the vote yes for prop-19 arguments I saw a lot of.

I asked them what was it they couldn't do under true legalization. No one ever answered that.
So I'll ask you: What can you not do under true legalization that you could under prop-19.

p.s. I was thinking the answer was discriminate against the average citizen over rights to cannabis horticulture.

It boils down to what the industry will look like rather then what freedom for the people looks like.
Remember the Slaves of America were not freed because they did good work cheaply so too will the rights to cannabis are; that many want to keep production the domain of the profiteers under the rule of law.
Never mind that we have been suffering under the rule of law for all these years.
Sort of awkward that our canna-people opt for rule of law "legalization" after all these years.
I'd like to have freedom as the rule of law.. I read people are against granting freedom under the rule of law.
 

Matt Rize

Hashmaster
So I'll ask you: What can you not do under true legalization that you could under prop-19.
replying to questions with questions is WEAK sauce. True legalization is a myth and fantasy. you can't compare apples to unicorns.

"I'd like to have freedom as the rule of law." Ernst
I'd like to have tiger blood, two goddesses, and a private jet, BUT IT AIN'T HAPPENING! Come back to reality so we can talk about legislation instead of fantasy.
 

undertheice

Well-Known Member
What I gather from reading your reply is "We are all better off with less liberty than more."
if that is all you took away from my posts, then i'd say you need to work on your reading comprehension. though we must be willing to give up some amount of total liberty to coexist within a society, it is never a good thing to be forced to do so. this isn't about surrendering our liberty, it's about regaining it and, in so doing, advancing all our liberties. it is about reinforcing the concept of the self-ownership, something we have been increasingly willing to abdicate to the state for quite some time. every day we see the public less prone to trusting itself, insisting that government determine the proper course for our lives, and this is the path we must alter in order to regain the path toward the liberty of the individual.

it isn't that your aim is altogether faulty. you merely suffer from the same childish impatience that is so prevalent among modern liberals. you don't seem to understand that no one simply arrives at a destination, no matter how important that destination might be. the goal is not just to legalize a harmless and beneficial plant, it is to free us all from the natural tyranny of the state. this can't be done through legislation alone, but demands the steady loosening of the regulations that bind us and enslave us to the state. it takes the somewhat radical shift in our outlook away from dependence on laws and toward the more natural reliance on the responsibility of the individual. such a shift does not and should not happen overnight, but by gradual stages that allow the people to acclimatize themselves to this new environment.

And I should say that given a choice for a corporation to make money off cannabis I'd rather see the people do it.
your words here come straight from the playbook of institutionalized populism, a mindset that seems custom made to ensure our division and subservience to the true elite - the political class. what is a corporation, after all, but a group of individuals banded together to succeed within the private sector. it is as much a part of "the people" as you or i. it is as subject to the forces of the marketplace and the whims of government regulation as the rest of us. successful corporate entities and the wealthy may be better prepared to guard against the vagaries of the marketplace and even able to influence the onerous regulations of a power mad bureaucracy, but the violent force of government is not available to them as it is to the state. demanding that they be handicapped to make up for their advantage is not a victory for "the common man", it is a victory for the power of the state that we demand enforce those handicaps.

the inanity of your position is made all the more evident in the other thread you started, where you advance the proposition that we can somehow legalize this happy little plant for the people and not allow business a place at the table. just who do you think these "evil" business owners are? they are the people. just because you don't number yourself among them, doesn't mean that they should not have all the same rights that you propose for "the little guy". what you want is not progress, it is a return to the mom and pop stores and the elimination of the mass marketing that is a natural progression from those beginnings. you simply can't turn back the clock because our present circumstances are uncomfortable for you. any attempt at legalization must take into account our present situation, not cater to an idealized past. warehouse stores, mass marketers and conglomerates are a reality you can't ignore. while specialty and "boutique" stores certainly must and will have their place, demanding that those with the advantage of accumulated capital be handicapped will only assure further delays in the process of legalization.
 

Ernst

Well-Known Member
So you guys are saying that growing this plant in your garden is a danger to society?

Why?
 

Ernst

Well-Known Member
Just asking a simple question. I assume you two are against me or anyone growing this plant in our gardens as we see fit. I assume there is danger so I am asking what danger you see.
 

DelSlow

Well-Known Member
There's no REAL danger really. But people who don't know shit about weed still think it's bad/harmful. They will not vote for an all out, grow everything, tax free, initiative. I WOULD, but we need some non smokers to pass legislation. Sucks, but that's how it has to be.
 

Ernst

Well-Known Member
I think the permit idea so the state can collect revenue is a good one.

What I hope I have made clear is I am for the right to grow all we can but to be compliant with local ordnances.
I hope any legalization will put individual rights in stone so they cannot be taken away in some of our more ultra-conservative areas in California.
That means we have to have rights we can use in court. Prop 19 put that power in the hands of a land owner and not in the individuals hands.
Some folks are against us having those rights we can use in court at the same time they want more rights for corporations and less accountability for corporations.
 

Ernst

Well-Known Member
There's no REAL danger really. But people who don't know shit about weed still think it's bad/harmful. They will not vote for an all out, grow everything, tax free, initiative. I WOULD, but we need some non smokers to pass legislation. Sucks, but that's how it has to be.
D0 you think some of those no votes were simply no votes against corporate drug dealing and not against individual rights which prop-19 did not grant by the way?

What do you think of the Statement "If we cannot legalize for the people we cannot legalize for the corporations nor should we."
 

undertheice

Well-Known Member
no one here cares what you choose to grow in your garden and prop. 19 didn't penalize you for it either. it merely demanded a limit on what you could produce, a sensible step in the minds of those who have bought into the reefer madness nonsense and decades of government sponsored propaganda. i don't like the idea either, but i do recognize it as a necessary first step toward the acceptance of legalization. you seem so caught up in your anti-corporate mania and your own concept of this as a harmless plant, that you completely ignore the larger community and its perceptions. the forces that promote this prohibition may not have any real logic behind their position, but they must still be dealt with in the process of legalization.

this naive belief of yours that california's much vaunted liberalism will win the day for the cause of legalization is a childish pipe dream. modern liberalism is all about the control of the population by means of government regulation. what better form of control is there than to simply outlaw any product? no, the key to legalization is to win over the doubtful fence-sitters who are simply tired of this meaningless waste of time and energy, to whet the appetite of the liberal establishment with the possibility of a huge tax windfall and to prove, once and for all, just how wrong the doom-sayers really have been all along. you propose a marijuana free-for-all that smacks far too much of anarchy to the average schmuck on the street and leaves us open to the gate being shut on us just as we have managed to wedge our way into the mainstream consciousness. you would deny access to the very big money players whose fortunes could help sway public sentiment and mock the entire mass marketing system that the public lives and dies by. we get it, you're counter culture and think that only those with your limited viewpoint should be the winners in this game. well the sentiments of the rest of the world deserve the same sort of respect that you seem to feel yours deserves and many of them have a far different view of this situation. the winning hand will be played by whoever can win the most people over to their side and that hand is best built on compromise. that's the real meaning of this democracy that you seem to be so attached to.
 

Ernst

Well-Known Member
Prop 19 didn't give us any rights just permission if a land owner said it was okay. Rights are something that seems to frighten some.

We had to get permission from someone who benefits from our rent monies.. Like they would give us freedom.

Again I point out the worthlessness of focusing on me as the problem.
It doesn't matter if I like run naked with a Nixion mask on or not really.

Legalizing for the people. Having permits to generate revenue over taxes and rights that stand up in court are not fantasy and should be something we can all agree on.
 

Matt Rize

Hashmaster
. warehouse stores, mass marketers and conglomerates are a reality you can't ignore. while specialty and "boutique" stores certainly must and will have their place, demanding that those with the advantage of accumulated capital be handicapped will only assure further delays in the process of legalization.
just incase you misunderstood.... THE MAJORITY OF WHAT WE KNOW AS THE MEDICAL CANNABIS INDUSTRY IS GOING TO BIG BIZ WHEN WE LEGALIZE.

Thank you undertheice... we have different positions, and ideology, but we both live here and want actual change. This guy more likely distracts from important legislation than anything, BUT his prodding for some kind of fantastic "canna rights" are part of what it's going to take to change the mindset. Gotta love him... for his part in the larger picture. :) RESPECT to all.
 

Matt Rize

Hashmaster
What do you think of the Statement "If we cannot legalize for the people (then) we cannot legalize for the corporations nor should we."
I'll jump in here. Who is we? Growers? Smokers? RIU? The total public including those that DO NOT want to see you growing/smoking? Come down to earth bro. We are here waiting for you so we can talk politics.
 

undertheice

Well-Known Member
so now we're bitching about land ownership? sorry, but if you're going to advocate the tearing down of private ownership in favor of some forced slavery to whatever rights the state is willing to hand out, you're even more of a loon than i'd at first thought. we've already got plenty of those here and it always seems that they're more than willing to sacrifice anyone else's rights, as long as those others have more than they do. so that's what this is all about, eh? just another case of sour grapes? i probably should have realized it before this, but i don't spend as much time here as i used to. what you advocate is unlimited rights for anyone with under x amount of discretionary funding, freedom for the have nots at the expense of the haves.

as for focusing on you as the problem, i've read some of your posts and you most definitely do represent a huge part of the problem. you've fallen into the trap of believing that our rights emanate from the state, when all that any government can do is protect our rights or take them away. you've fallen under the sway of propagandized popular entertainment that shows business as the enemy of the people and fosters a false robin hood mentality. you have aligned yourself with one extreme that, as it declares war on its opposite, traps the vast majority in the midst of your battlefield. what you demand is a dictatorship of the proletariat, as prone to abuse as any other tyranny.
 

Ernst

Well-Known Member
so now we're bitching about land ownership? sorry, but if you're going to advocate the tearing down of private ownership in favor of some forced slavery to whatever rights the state is willing to hand out, you're even more of a loon than i'd at first thought. we've already got plenty of those here and it always seems that they're more than willing to sacrifice anyone else's rights, as long as those others have more than they do. so that's what this is all about, eh? just another case of sour grapes? i probably should have realized it before this, but i don't spend as much time here as i used to. what you advocate is unlimited rights for anyone with under x amount of discretionary funding, freedom for the have nots at the expense of the haves.

as for focusing on you as the problem, i've read some of your posts and you most definitely do represent a huge part of the problem. you've fallen into the trap of believing that our rights emanate from the state, when all that any government can do is protect our rights or take them away. you've fallen under the sway of propagandized popular entertainment that shows business as the enemy of the people and fosters a false robin hood mentality. you have aligned yourself with one extreme that, as it declares war on its opposite, traps the vast majority in the midst of your battlefield. what you demand is a dictatorship of the proletariat, as prone to abuse as any other tyranny.

It was in Prop-19 an attempt to rape us legally/.
 

Matt Rize

Hashmaster
you seem so caught up in your anti-corporate mania and your own concept of this as a harmless plant, that you completely ignore the larger community and its perceptions. the forces that promote this prohibition may not have any real logic behind their position, but they must still be dealt with in the process of legalization.

this naive belief of yours that california's much vaunted liberalism will win the day for the cause of legalization is a childish pipe dream. modern liberalism is all about the control of the population by means of government regulation. what better form of control is there than to simply outlaw any product? no, the key to legalization is to win over the doubtful fence-sitters who are simply tired of this meaningless waste of time and energy, to whet the appetite of the liberal establishment with the possibility of a huge tax windfall and to prove, once and for all, just how wrong the doom-sayers really have been all along. you propose a marijuana free-for-all that smacks far too much of anarchy to the average schmuck on the street and leaves us open to the gate being shut on us just as we have managed to wedge our way into the mainstream consciousness. you would deny access to the very big money players whose fortunes could help sway public sentiment and mock the entire mass marketing system that the public lives and dies by. we get it, you're counter culture and think that only those with your limited viewpoint should be the winners in this game. well the sentiments of the rest of the world deserve the same sort of respect that you seem to feel yours deserves and many of them have a far different view of this situation. the winning hand will be played by whoever can win the most people over to their side and that hand is best built on compromise. that's the real meaning of this democracy that you seem to be so attached to.
Thank you again. I am way too high to write something that spot on. K+++
 

Matt Rize

Hashmaster
We the People who would be affected by legalizing.
Everyone will be affected. Kids, old people, squares, stoners, drug addicts, judges, me, you, fdd, undertheice, EVERYONE. Ima be smoking giant hash joints in the MOST public places allowed by law once I CAN. And so will everyone else.
 

Ernst

Well-Known Member
You guys are making this overly complex.

What is the worst that can happen if tomorrow we all wake up and we can plant 30 plants in the garden and so can everyone else?

It's not about class warfare not if it is a right for all. it isn't.

So I'll ask once more why is it that we cannot legalize for the people first in 2012 so we can take the first step in legalizing for the whole USA?
 
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