Create a unique seed line (Cubing)

I figured I would post this in this fourm so more people could see it. I cam accross it looking at how Brothers Grim breed their C99. I thought it might be worth a sticky somewhere?
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Credit -Brothers Grim:

Cubing a clone is a way to create a unique seedline modelled after a currently existing female individual.

The goal is to create seeds from which the females replicate the phenotype of the original female.

Obviously the chosen female should be an outstanding specimen.

Procedure:

CONTINUOUSLY KEEP A MOTHER IN THE VEGETATIVE STATE TO PROVIDE CLONES

1. Pollinate a flowering clone of the original female with the pollen of a related male, preferably her father or a brother. The resulting seeds contain 1/2 the original female’s genes and 1/2 those of the male. An unrelated male won’t have the Y-chromosome of the chosen female’s family & therefore any Y-linked traits of the family will always be missing in the seedline.

2. Grow the above seeds & flower them. Collect an equal quantity of pollen from each selected male and mix it together.

3. Pollinate a flowering clone of the original female with the above pollen. These seeds contain 1/2 the original female’s genes plus 1/4 more because the male used was 1/2 her genetics too. I call this generation “.75” to capture the idea that it’s 3/4 of the original female’s genetics.

4. Grow the above seeds & flower them. Collect an equal quantity of pollen from each selected male and mix it together.

5. Pollinate a flowering clone of the original female with the above pollen. These seeds contain 7/8 the original genes (1/2+3/, the “.88” generation.

6. Grow the above seeds & flower them.
Collect an equal quantity of pollen from each selected male and mix it together.

7. Pollinate a flowering clone of the original female with the above pollen. These seeds contain 15/16 the original genes (1/2+7/16), the “.94″ generation.

Theoretically, this will be a stable, true-breeding seedline from which all females are replicas of the original. ”

So say I want to cross, blue pit x sour cherry am make blue cherry.....

I cross my male and female Making the blue cherry seeds,
grow them out find my female keeper and a good male
to back cross and so on using the same method a few times an that will stabilize my strain?

This ex was set up so if you have a certain clone (say c99 pineapple) that you wanted to breed seeds that would produce the same clone/pheno (C99 pineapple)

So like a f1 I cloned a wanted to stabilize?
Bare with me I'm new to breeding an struggle with hardy wien burg law... but give me few days of reading I hopefully pick it up

Yep thats the Idea. Looks like it would work on any clone as long as you pererably have a dad or brother male to breed it with. I have never done it either. But am going to try now I see how its done. Sounds like you got some yummy clones there.

I have a few pips just started last week regs i plan on crossing,

so say i get a clone only and cross with a male i can get pips close to female clone only by keep back crossing the clone with brother or father for about 4 generation

keep the female you want to make seeds from and veg her out to get more clones from. Always use those female clones off that plant to breed each gen of pollen collected with the breeding plan above.

@Sativied did a great one as well.


https://www.rollitup.org/index.php?threads/840329/
Backcrossing Your Own Variety



I linked it so that those looking into this thread about cubing could also find that one as well.

Thats a great post ASF, I didnt see the breeders fourm? Thats why I posted this here and on the seed/strain fourm. as soon as I get my C99 seeds I am going to add breeder to my bag of tricks. I do have skunk #1 orignal seeds from sensi seeds so I might breed a few from those slso.


Lol, I just looked, the Breeders fourm is at the top of the page on this fourm.

I've been doing exactly this for about 3 years now. In fact, I'm in the process of pollinating the F5 generation, but 5 days of rain is screwing me up. I pollinate outside to protect my host plants.

The brother male is 6 years dead and I used a really nice male for the initial cross. Really thought it was a female till it got put outside to flower. The host plant has been clone only for 6 years now.

This is why I'm going to F5 and perhaps F6 to get the genetics to 95% or more of the female before I start crossing siblings. I'll see what the F5's look like.

Wet

Just scanning through this thread there's a bit of misunderstanding.

The op was right in his original post, if I read correctly. If you continually flower f2,f3,f4,f5,f6..etc generations back against the original mother they will be more and more like her. IF she was homogenous to begin with - if she had a bunch of hidden recessive traits they may show with your new plants.

If you want to make a cross you continually cross generation after generation of inbred strains (you can backcross if none of the progeny display a desired trait and eventually you can isolate it). You pick the best plants displaying the strict criterion you're looking for from each generation.

Once you get say, two stable F6 generations and cross them you get a new F1 that (if they were stable) should only have four phenotypes 1 leaning towards one parent, one towards the other, and two middle leaning. Since the recombination of genetic material also occurs the dominant (generally more vigorous growth, etc.) traits will also display in this new F1 offspring known as hybrid vigor. All corn you eat is made this way.

Mendellian (sp?) only works with large numbers fwiw.

If you start (pollen chucking) F1 vs F1 vs F1 you get more of a synthetic, kind of like open pollination with a bunch of random strains having males and females. Generally not desirable, but I can think of at least one clone only strain that occurred from this.

so crossing 2 differnt strains to make my f1

Find the winner female in this bunch of f1s either back cross or cross with sibling the get the f2 seeds more like the traits I want and so on till f4,f5 so more a female pips are the same?

budolskie said:

so crossing 2 differnt strains to make my f1

Find the winner female in this bunch of f1s either back cross or cross with sibling the get the f2 seeds more like the traits I want and so on till f4,f5 so more a female pips are the same?

Click to expand...

No, that is regular breeding, sorta. ^^^

Re-read the original post. The 'winner female' is a flowering clone and all subsequent crosses are made using the same flowering clone as the female. Or, rather, clones from that particular female. The male pollen comes from each succession of F seeds.

Make sense?

Wet

Yes I get you, I have a purple lemon im revegging


This is from a mate who only has these in f1 an says the rest of pips will vary..

So I can cross this will differnt strain and then select males out of each f1, f2 etc to make more of the pips like this.purple lemon i.flowered

budolskie said:

Yes I get you, I have a purple lemon im revegging
View attachment 3510705

This is from a mate who only has these in f1 an says the rest of pips will vary..

So I can cross this will differnt strain and then select males out of each f1, f2 etc to make more of the pips like this.purple lemon i.flowered View attachment 3510711

Click to expand...

Great looking plants man.

Thanks man they were my last lot, I been making this to try for my small run

Just waiting my roots to get long enough to put in an have a go

budolskie said:

Thanks man they were my last lot, I been making this to try for my small run View attachment 3511062

Just waiting my roots to get long enough to put in an have a go

Click to expand...

Looks super cool! Just enough space so the roots dont get tangled all up and gives more distance between plants. Is that a 10 gallon res?

30lts water I gona have at the max an 10ltr minimum

Something like that would be perfect for me, I could still do res change every week but not have to worry about messing with plants on lid, then just clean netpots and stuff at chop.

RockStarGrower said:

This ex was set up so if you have a certain clone (say c99 pineapple) that you wanted to breed seeds that would produce the same clone/pheno (C99 pineapple)

Click to expand...

Hey all
stumbled upon this here on riu posted by a member named shepj;2404467
somewhere else...
Its a copy of an article by chimera who is a breeder and was member on good old overgrow.

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Cubing.......a myth.

Here's breeder chimera's take on the subject:

"you’ve just discovered the biggest myth (IMNSHO) of marijuana breeding- it is a mistake that almost EVERYONE makes (including many of the most respected breeders!).

Backcrossing will not stabilize a strain at all- it is a technique that SHOULD be used to reinforce or stabilize a particular trait, but not all of them.

For e.g.- G13 is a clone, which I would bet my life on is not true breeding for every, or even most traits- this means that it is heterozygous for these traits- it has two alleles (different versions of a gene). No matter how many times you backcross to it, it will always donate either of the two alleles to the offspring. This problem can be compounded by the fact that the original male used in the cross (in this case hashplant) may have donated a third allele to the pool- kinda makes things even more difficult!

So what does backcrossing do?
It creates a population that has a great deal of the same genes as the mother clone. From this population, if enough plants are grown, individuals can be chosen that have all the same traits as the mother, for use in creating offspring that are similar (the same maybe) as the original clone.
Another problem that can arise is this- there are three possibilities for the expression of a monogenic (controlled by one gene pair) trait.

We have dominant, recessive, and co-dominant conditions.

In the dominant condition, genotypically AA or Aa, the plants of these genotypes will look the same (will have the same phenotype, for that trait).

Recessive- aa will have a phenotype

Co-dominant- Aa- these plants will look different from the AA and the aa.

A perfect example of this is the AB blood types in humans:

Type A blood is either AA or AO
Type B blood is either BB or BO
Type AB blood is ONLY AB
Type O blood is OO.

In this case there are three alleles (notated A, B, and O respectively).

If the clone has a trait controlled by a co-dominant relationship- i.e. the clone is Aa (AB in the blood example) we will never have ALL plants showing the trait- here is why:

Suppose the clone mother is Aa- the simplest possibility is that the dad used contributes one of his alleles,
let us say A. That mean the boy being use for the first backcross is either AA or Aa. We therefore have two possibilities:

1) If he is AA- we have AA X Aa- 50% of the offspring are AA, 50% are Aa. (you can do the punnett square to prove this to yourself).

In this case only 50% of the offspring show the desired phenotype (Aa genotype)!

2) If the boy being used is Aa- we have Aa X Aa (again do the punnett square) this gives a typical F2 type segregation- 25% AA, 50% Aa, and 25% aa.
This shows that a co-dominant trait can ONLY have 50% of the offspring showing the desired trait (Aa genotype) in a backcross.

If the phenotype is controlled by a dominant condition- see example #1- all 100% show the desired phenotype, but only 50% will breed true for it.

If the phenotype is controlled by a recessive condition- see example #2- only 25% will show the desired phenotype, however if used for breeding these will all breed true if mated to another aa individual.

Now- if the original dad (hashplant) donates an 'a' allele, we only have the possibilities that the offspring, from which the backcross boy will be chosen, will be either Aa or aa.
For the Aa boy, see #2.
For the aa boy (an example of a test cross, aa X Aa) we will have:
50% aa offspring (desired phenotype), and 50% Aa offspring.

Do you see what is happening here? Using this method of crossing to an Aa clone mother, we can NEVER have ALL the offspring showing the desired phenotype! Never! Never ever ever! Never!! LOL

The ONLY WAY to have all the offspring show a Aa phenotype is to cross an AA individual with an aa individual- all of the offspring from this union will be the desired phenotype, with an Aa genotype.

Now, all of that was for a Aa genotype for the desired phenotype. It isn't this complicated if the trait is AA or aa. I hope this causes every one to re-evaluate the importance of multiple backcrosses- it just doesn't work to stabilize the trait!

Also- that was all for a monogenic trait! What if the trait is controlled by a polygenic interaction or an epistatic interaction- it gets EVEN MORE complicated? AARRGH!!!!

Really, there is no need to do more than 1 backcross. From this one single backcross, as long as we know what we are doing, and grow out enough plants to find the right genotypes, we can succeed at the goal of eventually stabilizing most, if not all of the desired traits.

The confusion arises because we don't think about the underlying biological causes of these situations- to really understand this; we all need to understand meiosis.

We think of math-e.g. 50% G13, 50% hashplant

Next generation 50% G13 x 50% g13hp or (25% G13, 25%HP)

We interpret this as an additive property:
50% G13 + 25% G13 +25% HP = 75% G13 and 25% hashplant

This is unfortunately completely false- the same theory will apply for the so called 87.%% G13 12.5% HP next generation, and the following 93.25% G13, 6.25% HP generation; we'd like it to be true as it would make stabilizing traits fairly simple, but it JUST DOESN'T work that way. The above is based on a mathematical model, which seems to make sense- but it doesn't- we ignore the biological foundation that is really at play.

I hope this was clear, I know it can get confusing, and I may not have explained it well enough- sorry if that is the case, I'll try to clear up any questions or mistakes I may have made.

Have fun everyone while making your truebreeding varieties, but just remember that cubing (successive backcrosses) is not the way to do it!

-Chimera"
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