Cool air and warm water – higher metabolism, faster growth and production combo

J

J Henry

Active Member
How about great light, air circulation, continuous 60F air temp on top and controlled 82F nutrient water temp for root zone and microbe colonies. Foliage likes it cool, warm water insures higher metabolism for roots and microbe growth? Sounds like a winner to me.

Thoughts and opinions?

J
 
alwayslearning777

alwayslearning777

Well-Known Member
I say give it a go, i know i keep my temp at 66 and they do indeed love it, as far as water temp ive never tried to use warmer water .. i have to fill up gallon jugs let em sit for a day and then water, so the higest temp my water ever sees is maybe 72 or what ever temp the house is at

I am curiouse about the warmer water temps, i will have to give a whirl once this harvest is complete
 
J

J Henry

Active Member
Everyone I've talked with all say the nutrient temp must be kept between 65-69 F, but when I ask that simple question - Why and show me any research that tells me why... I hear "look at our chiller advertisement," "chilled water is great for your plants, your plants need and will love chilled water" yada, yada and so on. But no one seems to really know or will say precisely why warm 80F water is not good. Chilled water causes and insures cold roots, lower metabolism, lower plant energy, slower microbial growth... I have talked with several companies that sell and promote water chillers for hydroponics applications and all the sales staff tell me the same thing, you got to have cool water, buy my chillers.

Do people buy these thousand $ nutrient chillers because a salesman simply says "plants like chilled water?" That's it? Those chillers are not cheap and the electrical cost are inexpensive to operate and maintain (parts and labor).

Are there any real scientific reasons for using chilled 65-69F nutrient water? If anyone knows of any scientific publication citation the benefits of maintaining nutrient temperatures this low, please note the url. I would really like to see this other than in product advertisement, infomercials and internet articles promoting chillers.
Thanks
J
 
J

J Henry

Active Member
Krypto - Is that the only 2 reasons for not using warmer nutrient water that you know of... lower dissolve oxygen saturation in warmer water, warmer water guarantees low dissolved oxygen saturation and low oxygen saturation increase probability and chances of root rot fungal infestation?
I have read in scientific publications that root rot is caused by fungal opportunist that thrive in hydroponics environments only when the nutrient solution develops low dissolved oxygen saturation for any reason. The low oxygen/disease issue is documented in the hydroponics scientific literature.

Do you know of any hydroponics research that supports any other reasons other than what you have mentioned here?

Thinking out of the box a little - imagine this for a moment: Do you think the plants may be healthier, grow faster and be more productive if the grower could maintain his nutrient solution and root zone temperature at a constant 80F and maintainer the circulating air at 65-70F with good lighting of course? That is - provided the nutrient solution oxygenation is maintained at continuous 100% DO saturation throughout the whole system?
Your thoughts?
J
 
Sativied

Sativied

Well-Known Member
J Henry said:
Why and show me any research that tells me why...
Click to expand...
How about you don't shift the burden of proof and shows us research that backs up your claims? Has it occurred to you that 80f is hot even for soil? You, not the chiller sellers, make a bold claim so the burden of proof is yours. Show us that 80f dwc run...

J Henry said:
Thinking out of the box a little - imagine this for a moment: Do you think the plants may be healthier, grow faster and be more productive if the grower could maintain his nutrient solution and root zone temperature at a constant 80F and maintainer the circulating air at 65-70F with good lighting of course? That is - provided the nutrient solution oxygenation is maintained at continuous 100% DO saturation throughout the whole system?
Click to expand...
100% of what?

That condition you "provided" does not exist in reality, as you just learned. It's the max DO level that lowers when temp gets higher.
 
K

KryptoBud

Well-Known Member
J Henry said:
Krypto - Is that the only 2 reasons for not using warmer nutrient water that you know of... lower dissolve oxygen saturation in warmer water, warmer water guarantees low dissolved oxygen saturation and low oxygen saturation increase probability and chances of root rot fungal infestation?
I have read in scientific publications that root rot is caused by fungal opportunist that thrive in hydroponics environments only when the nutrient solution develops low dissolved oxygen saturation for any reason. The low oxygen/disease issue is documented in the hydroponics scientific literature.

Do you know of any hydroponics research that supports any other reasons other than what you have mentioned here?

Thinking out of the box a little - imagine this for a moment: Do you think the plants may be healthier, grow faster and be more productive if the grower could maintain his nutrient solution and root zone temperature at a constant 80F and maintainer the circulating air at 65-70F with good lighting of course? That is - provided the nutrient solution oxygenation is maintained at continuous 100% DO saturation throughout the whole system?
Your thoughts?
J
Click to expand...
Well let me ask you a question. How would you maintain water temps 10-15 degrees warmer than your air temp? How would you keep a room full of hid lighting at 65-70f? This is what I know from my limited time with hydro. Ideal water temps are 68-71f for the reasons stated above. I'll give you some numbers. Fresh water at 68f holds 9ppm of o2, at 77f it holds 8.26 ppm. Doesn't seem like a big difference. Once nutrients/salts are added those numbers change. Now at 68f it holds 8ppm of o2 at 77f it holds 5ppm of o2. That is a significant difference. That doesn't mean it has to be 68f for plants to grow, that's optimal temp for the root zone. The warmer the solution, the more susceptible you plants become to pathogens.
 
alwayslearning777

alwayslearning777

Well-Known Member
just to chime in... what about soil if the big reason not to use warmer water is o2 then what about soil with looots of perlite the o2 would still be there and maybe like dude said it would help matabolize nutes quicker ... havnt tried it, probably wont cuz id have to heat my water but thoughts ?
 
alwayslearning777

alwayslearning777

Well-Known Member
i always try and replicate outside as much as possible, i know there is never a day when it rains 82 degree water where im at ... or maybe it does but doubtfull thats pretty warm
 
K

KryptoBud

Well-Known Member
alwayslearning777 said:
just to chime in... what about soil if the big reason not to use warmer water is o2 then what about soil with looots of perlite the o2 would still be there and maybe like dude said it would help matabolize nutes quicker ... havnt tried it, probably wont cuz id have to heat my water but thoughts ?
Click to expand...
It wouldn't apply to soil, the roots in potted plants get o2 from wet and dry cycles. That's why overwatering is a problem, keeping soil or roots saturated deprives them of o2. What ever the water temp going in to soil wheather it be 60f or 90f it'll probably be room temp fairly quick. I don't think in something like flood and drain water temp would make a huge difference. I think when the water drains it'll pull air into the root zone. This is for grow methods where roots are constantly submerged in the nutrient solution.
 
alwayslearning777

alwayslearning777

Well-Known Member
right on ... yup ima just stick with what im doing ... however always nice to see people thinking of new and improved ways... 99percent of the time its not new or improved but that 1 time ...
 
J

J Henry

Active Member
Sativied said:
How about you don't shift the burden of proof and shows us research that backs up your claims? Has it occurred to you that 80f is hot even for soil? You, not the chiller sellers, make a bold claim so the burden of proof is yours. Show us that 80f dwc run...

100% of what?

That condition you "provided" does not exist in reality, as you just learned. It's the max DO level that lowers when temp gets higher.
Click to expand...

Sativied - I read some of your Picture Journal, I’m looking forward to reading it all. You’ve provided detailed technical information, references and technique along with great pic of your work. Clearly you are no novice in the trade.

Intellectual Honesty is duly noted, has validity, acknowledged and appreciated… Bravo

Have any of you ever actually tested the DO Sat in nutrient water with a DO Meter or just looked a DO charts and assumed all is well because the nutrient water is cool? DO Meters ar costly and you would need a real good reason to spent the money to buy one, Most people just guess and hope there’s plenty of air.

100% of what?...
DO saturation - Slow way down, go back and read the next 3 words after 100% in my sentence… “what?” is DO saturation. You just got besides yourself and skipped the rest of the sentence… now you know.

That condition you "provided" does not exist in reality, as you just learned. It's the max DO level that lowers when temp gets higher.
Well that’s what the DO Sat chart predicts with fresh water alright. Yes, this condition I spoke of is real and not something I just learned or made up. I learned this in 8th grade general science decades ago and The DO Sat chart has not changed a t all. Dissolved oxygen supersaturation really exist in reality. Check it out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supersaturation

Nothing to it, simply apply Henry’s Law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry%27s_law and you can easily understand how easy it is to achieve 150% DO supersaturation if you like in 80F nutrient solution. Keep the solute concentration stable, the nutrient temp at 80F and manipulate the fractional concentration of oxygen and or barometric pressure, maybe an additional ½ psi is all it takes (15.1 psi).

By the way, oxygen is not air. Air contains 79% Nitrogen and many other gases including a little bit of 21% oxygen. Air is extremely limiting when it comes to insuring safe oxygenation. Oxygen is, well, 99.9% oxygen.

But, it doesn’t seem that any of you have ever experiences a low oxygen issue in your experience so this thread may be meaningless unless you have had low oxygen problems negatively affecting you crop.

For anyone on this thread that has had low oxygen problems, try out this DO Calculator and apply Henry’s Law with different pressures, (1 ATM is 760 mm/hg or 14.7 psi), different DO saturations and different DO Concentrations and behold, you can really manipulate DO Sats and DO Concentrations when or if you ever have low DO problems. All kinds of new ways to saturate or supersaturate nutrient water. Henry’s Law could open doors of perception for you and introduce a lot of new possibilities for consideration. http://water.usgs.gov/software/DOTABLES/

Thanks for joining in.

Now, let’s get back to my question please… Do you think the plants may be healthier, grow faster and be more productive if the grower could maintain his nutrient solution and root zone temperature at a constant 80F and maintainer the circulating air at 65-70F with good lighting of course? That is - provided the nutrient solution oxygenation is maintained at continuous 100% DO saturation throughout the whole system?

A simple yes, no or maybe will be fine.
Your thoughts?
J
 
J

J Henry

Active Member
KryptoBud said:
Well let me ask you a question. How would you maintain water temps 10-15 degrees warmer than your air temp? How would you keep a room full of hid lighting at 65-70f? This is what I know from my limited time with hydro. Ideal water temps are 68-71f for the reasons stated above. I'll give you some numbers. Fresh water at 68f holds 9ppm of o2, at 77f it holds 8.26 ppm. Doesn't seem like a big difference. Once nutrients/salts are added those numbers change. Now at 68f it holds 8ppm of o2 at 77f it holds 5ppm of o2. That is a significant difference. That doesn't mean it has to be 68f for plants to grow, that's optimal temp for the root zone. The warmer the solution, the more susceptible you plants become to pathogens.
Click to expand...
 
J

J Henry

Active Member
Krypto – I would turn down my A/C thermostat if the air temp was uncomfortable, to high, but that will definitely increase your electric bill (your cost of operation).
Great calculations with the DO chart, different temps, etc., but you are omitting a real important parameter that hydroponics oxygenation is all about… the collective biological and botanical oxygen demand of the plant eco system and the microbial eco system. They all consume a lot of O2, not much nitrogen (air). Satisfying the total O2 demand is the whole point of safe oxygenation you know.

Before you hijack my thread with a bunch of questions, not that your questions are not important to you, let’s get back on point a moment: Do you think the plants may be healthier, grow faster and be more productive if the grower could maintain his nutrient solution and root zone temperature at a constant 80F and maintainer the circulating air at 65-70F with good lighting of course? That is - provided the nutrient solution oxygenation is maintained at continuous 100% DO saturation throughout the whole system?

Pathogens, like fungi (root rot)?
Have you ever had a low oxygen problem in you nutrient solution that negatively affected your crop. If you haven't, oxygenation is a non issue.

Thanks

J
 
K

KryptoBud

Well-Known Member
J Henry said:
Krypto – I would turn down my A/C thermostat if the air temp was uncomfortable, to high, but that will definitely increase your electric bill (your cost of operation).
Great calculations with the DO chart, different temps, etc., but you are omitting a real important parameter that hydroponics oxygenation is all about… the collective biological and botanical oxygen demand of the plant eco system and the microbial eco system. They all consume a lot of O2, not much nitrogen (air). Satisfying the total O2 demand is the whole point of safe oxygenation you know.

Before you hijack my thread with a bunch of questions, not that your questions are not important to you, let’s get back on point a moment: Do you think the plants may be healthier, grow faster and be more productive if the grower could maintain his nutrient solution and root zone temperature at a constant 80F and maintainer the circulating air at 65-70F with good lighting of course? That is - provided the nutrient solution oxygenation is maintained at continuous 100% DO saturation throughout the whole system?

Pathogens, like fungi (root rot)?
Have you ever had a low oxygen problem in you nutrient solution that negatively affected your crop. If you haven't, oxygenation is a non issue.

Thanks

J
Click to expand...
Ok just one more question if I may. If you know a better more productive way of growing, why not lay it out, explain it, spread the knowledge instead of being a smug prick? Clearly you have something you're dying to tell us. The floor is yours professor.
Thoughts
 
Sativied

Sativied

Well-Known Member
J Henry said:
100% of what?...
DO saturation - Slow way down, go back and read the next 3 words after 100% in my sentence… “what?” is DO saturation. You just got besides yourself and skipped the rest of the sentence… now you know.
Click to expand...
Oh boy... not many around here with such a special level of projecting... I suggest you take your own advice and read slowly and carefully.

J Henry said:
Do you think the plants may be healthier, grow faster and be more productive if the grower could maintain his nutrient solution and root zone temperature at a constant 80F and maintainer the circulating air at 65-70F with good lighting of course? That is - provided the nutrient solution oxygenation is maintained at continuous 100% DO saturation throughout the whole system?
Click to expand...
It's not often something gets more comical when repeated but you nailed that for sure.

You are missing the obvious, and few other gaps in your knowledge else you wouldn't be asking such a silly malformed question.

I have a wiki link for you too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percentage
 
J

J Henry

Active Member
KryptoBud said:
Ok just one more question if I may. If you know a better more productive way of growing, why not lay it out, explain it, spread the knowledge instead of being a smug prick? Clearly you have something you're dying to tell us. The floor is yours professor.
Thoughts
Click to expand...
OK Krypto - just for you I'll "lay it out" 1 more time.. you must really make an effort this time, try to stay focused and pay attention.

Do you think the plants may be healthier, grow faster and be more productive if the grower could maintain his nutrient solution and root zone temperature at a constant 80F and maintainer the circulating air at 65-70F with good lighting of course? That is - provided the nutrient solution oxygenation is maintained at continuous 100% DO saturation throughout the whole system?
J
 
J

J Henry

Active Member
Sativied said:
Oh boy... not many around here with such a special level of projecting... I suggest you take your own advice and read slowly and carefully.


It's not often something gets more comical when repeated but you nailed that for sure.

You are missing the obvious, and few other gaps in your knowledge else you wouldn't be asking such a silly malformed question.

I have a wiki link for you too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percentage
Click to expand...
There is no doubt that I have encountered a truculent “know-it-all.”
 
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